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Marauders....
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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#21 - 2014-01-08 21:11:48 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
You cannot pay 1billion isk for a hull that has half the ammo consumption of its relatives, fit T2 guns/launchers and then argue about ammo cost for missioning. It does not make sense. T2 or faction ammo is the only option for these hulls.


no one is actually talking about ammo price as an important consideration for a marauder.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

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hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#22 - 2014-01-08 21:12:39 UTC
Batelle wrote:
[....] a gunship will use t1 or faction ammo 95% of the time, with price as the only consideration, and t2 being situational (scorch aside).

It depends. With Kronos what you said holds true for railguns however with blasters I'm using T2 ammo almost exclusively (both) and it's faction variant which is highly situational.
stoicfaux
#23 - 2014-01-08 21:27:04 UTC
Sid Crash wrote:
In this situation it does because the difference between T1 and Faction turret ammo is a plain damage increase for increased cost, but if you go from T1 to Fury ammo (which is needed to get the good dps numbers on that Golem, without fury it's mediocre) you also get damage application differences to a point when you do 220 or so to a base speed cruiser.

The golem NEEDS fury to shine but it also restricts it in regards to target type, so unless one agrees to wasting lots of time doing low dps to cruisers, or decides to take out target based on size (BS/BC first) and then switch ammo either way you're wasting time. A turret ship like the Vargur does not have to make choices like that, it just keeps firing its ammo (be it T1 or faction) regardless of the target.



Not necessarily. A 2xRigorII Golem with 3 TPs can take the same amount of volleys against cruisers as a Golem using Precision ammo (with or without Rigors.) Otherwise, the Golem takes one extra volley to kill cruisers normally. However,
* big slow Guristas cruisers tend to die just as quickly to Fury as Precision regardless
* T1 ammo and 3 TPs looks like it performs as well as Precision ammo (except against frigates.)

fyi, three PWNAGE TPs on a Golem increase the target's sig size by 3.07.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#24 - 2014-01-08 21:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Noxisia Arkana
I haven't seen the OP in a while.

...So, we'll commense bitter-vet e-peen about trivial crap? I too am interested in how many target painters I must fit on my rage golem and the cost of faction ammo on a 4 turret ship. Perhaps we could do a ROF comparison between blasters / atuocannons, and rails / arty?

I'd also want a breakdown of the most efficient drones to use. So, if I have salvage drone 4 am I better off using my MTU and tractors to scoop the loot in and salvage with drones? Or should I be sending my curators / bouncers out to visit wrath upon the approaching NPCs? Could I get a quick DPS bounty calculation vs. the value of salvage drones working with minimal travel time?

/sarcasm (..if it wasn't apparent)
stoicfaux
#25 - 2014-01-08 21:39:41 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
I haven't seen the OP in a while.

...So, we'll commense bitter-vet e-peen about trivial crap? I too am interested in how many target painters I must fit on my rage golem and the cost of faction ammo on a 4 turret ship. Perhaps we could do a ROF comparison between blasters / atuocannons, and rails / arty?

I'd also want a breakdown of the most efficient drones to use. So, if I have salvage drone 4 am I better off using my MTU and tractors to scoop the loot in and salvage with drones? Or should I be sending my curators / bouncers out to visit wrath upon the approaching NPCs? Could I get a quick DPS bounty calculation vs. the value of salvage drones working with minimal travel time?

/sarcasm (..if it wasn't apparent)

I don't think you fully appreciate the intersection of EVE players who can code programs and/or write spreadsheets, and those EVE players who are math/economics enabled.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Sid Crash
#26 - 2014-01-08 21:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Crash
stoicfaux wrote:
Sid Crash wrote:
In this situation it does because the difference between T1 and Faction turret ammo is a plain damage increase for increased cost, but if you go from T1 to Fury ammo (which is needed to get the good dps numbers on that Golem, without fury it's mediocre) you also get damage application differences to a point when you do 220 or so to a base speed cruiser.

The golem NEEDS fury to shine but it also restricts it in regards to target type, so unless one agrees to wasting lots of time doing low dps to cruisers, or decides to take out target based on size (BS/BC first) and then switch ammo either way you're wasting time. A turret ship like the Vargur does not have to make choices like that, it just keeps firing its ammo (be it T1 or faction) regardless of the target.



Not necessarily. A 2xRigorII Golem with 3 TPs can take the same amount of volleys against cruisers as a Golem using Precision ammo (with or without Rigors.) Otherwise, the Golem takes one extra volley to kill cruisers normally. However,
* big slow Guristas cruisers tend to die just as quickly to Fury as Precision regardless
* T1 ammo and 3 TPs looks like it performs as well as Precision ammo (except against frigates.)

fyi, three PWNAGE TPs on a Golem increase the target's sig size by 3.07.




2 T2 rigor golem vs unfitted Moa, same + 3 painters

T1 ammo: 343 675
Precision: 675 675
Fury: 247 683

So there's a big difference in performance between precision and fury in this regard and fury requiring 3 painters to work (using less severely lowers the damage), and cycling 3 painters on the same target, having to deal with the different launcher and painter cycling, that's just silly. Also, with T1 or precision you can shoot different targets because you're not relying on painting a single target with all 3 painters.

So yes, running fury lowers your effectiveness against cruiser targets (obviously), you WILL lose time because you have to wait for the painters to cycle and you can only fire on 1 target at the same time. Overall you lose time by toying with this OR you switch ammo, either way it's a lot more effort and time lost.

A ship that doesn't have to bother with changing ammo depending on target size will always be more user friendly and while it may be outperformed by the golem at some things (generally beyond a certain 30-50km range) overall it'll be easier and less annoying to use.



Personally I'd rather biomass than having to paint every ******* smaller target, waiting for the cycles and overlap they will have. Not saying it doesn't work, it does and apart from the "1 target only due to painters" it works really well, but honestly; **** that ****.
stoicfaux
#27 - 2014-01-08 22:20:43 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Sid Crash wrote:

2 T2 rigor golem vs unfitted Moa, same + 3 painters

T1 ammo: 343 675
Precision: 675 675
Fury: 247 683

So there's a big difference in performance between precision and fury in this regard and fury requiring 3 painters to work (using less severely lowers the damage), and cycling 3 painters on the same target, having to deal with the different launcher and painter cycling, that's just silly. Also, with T1 or precision you can shoot different targets because you're not relying on painting a single target with all 3 painters.

So yes, running fury lowers your effectiveness against cruiser targets (obviously), you WILL lose time because you have to wait for the painters to cycle and you can only fire on 1 target at the same time. Overall you lose time by toying with this OR you switch ammo, either way it's a lot more effort and time lost.

A ship that doesn't have to bother with changing ammo depending on target size will always be more user friendly and while it may be outperformed by the golem at some things (generally beyond a certain 30-50km range) overall it'll be easier and less annoying to use.



Personally I'd rather biomass than having to paint every ******* smaller target, waiting for the cycles and overlap they will have. Not saying it doesn't work, it does and apart from the "1 target only due to painters" it works really well, but honestly; **** that ****.

TPs are now on a 5 second cycle. You shouldn't be waiting on the TPs before firing at a new target.

The real reasons why a gunship like the Vargur does better are:
* less DPS loss to overkill: smaller volley damage, faster cycle times (3 seconds v. 8 seconds for the Golem)
* less DPS loss to lag (when a target is destroyed, missiles tend to have a delay before you can fire them at a new target even though they have finished cycling, whereas guns tend to be immediately available )
* killing frigates at range tends to be faster than using drones
* no DPS loss to NPC Defenders (although NPC Defenders tend to behave oddly nowadays.)

edit: Back when I was keeping track, ammo costs tended to run 2-3% of earned assets for T2/Faction.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Sid Crash
#28 - 2014-01-08 23:28:52 UTC
You still get cycling, especially when trying to paint more targets. just less so.
Yes, hence my remark about not being able to fire on multiple targets
yup, insta damage = win

The whole missile high alpha, delayed damage, target speed (vs angular) and in this case painting just makes it cumbersome, annoying.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#29 - 2014-01-09 11:19:07 UTC
Sid Crash wrote:
To mare wrote:
Sid Crash wrote:
If you're in Amarr space you then either want to go for the Paladin or the Golem

fixed for you


You mean that Golem that has to perpetually get in range with its torps, that same Golem with 0% base EM resists and also that Golem that needs to cycle 2 painters (annoying as hell) to actually apply its dps, are we talking about the same Golem here?

no i mean the golem that with cruise missile can outdamage the vargur outside of the 15km (bastion make you immobile) area on pretty much everything that is not a frig out to locking range, i mean the golem that can deal 100% EM damage and not a mix of EXP KIN and EM, i mean the golem that can apply its dps w/o any problem with proper rigs and cruises and if you have problem tanking with bastion and cruises you are doing it terribly wrong
Sid Crash
#30 - 2014-01-09 11:23:21 UTC
Yeah, we went all over that and it's different from how you paint it.
TotalRapeage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2014-01-09 12:15:22 UTC
elise densi wrote:
Removing the MJD bonus and adding more drone bandwith is and will be a very nice add
i fly paladin with beams and i haven no use for the mjd




Not everyone uses a maurader for pve, keep the mjd bonus..if you want a drone boat get a rattler.
Rexxorr
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-01-09 12:33:18 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

TPs are now on a 5 second cycle. You shouldn't be waiting on the TPs before firing at a new target.

The real reasons why a gunship like the Vargur does better are:
* less DPS loss to overkill: smaller volley damage, faster cycle times (3 seconds v. 8 seconds for the Golem)
* less DPS loss to lag (when a target is destroyed, missiles tend to have a delay before you can fire them at a new target even though they have finished cycling, whereas guns tend to be immediately available )
* killing frigates at range tends to be faster than using drones
* no DPS loss to NPC Defenders (although NPC Defenders tend to behave oddly nowadays.)

edit: Back when I was keeping track, ammo costs tended to run 2-3% of earned assets for T2/Faction.



This is just spot on. Vargur has the edge imo, you can assign each gun to four frigs and quickly clear the field. With the Golem you cant really split up the missile launchers because of the lower applied dps due to splitting target painters.

The Golem can do more dps at long range but if your target only has a bit of health left, that's a lot of wasted dps in that rather large missile volley.
Dirk Massive
D.O.O.M.
#33 - 2014-01-09 13:03:24 UTC
I can't speak for the other Marauders, but I'm thoroughly enjoying flying my Kronos. The thing is a beast!

**Bringing WAR and TERROR to a system near you.... **
Novah Soul
#34 - 2014-01-09 16:24:45 UTC
Thanks everyone for all the replies, and apologies for the late reply - been rather busy. You all have given me a lot to consider.

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor
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