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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

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Author
Vatek
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#161 - 2014-01-06 23:01:40 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Vatek wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
The MMJD unit really, really needs to be suppressed by any and all forms of warp interdiction. Local bubbles, anchored bubbles, long points, scrams, infinite points - presently only two of these suppress the MMJD and all five should.


It's actually only one of out of five, the only way to prevent an MJD activation is a scram.


Or infinite point, right? Which is of course a bit of overkill but might happen from time to time.

Or am I wrong on that one?


Scripted hictor points are effectively warp disruptors with infinite strength, they do not apply the scram effect that disables MWDs or MJDs.
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2014-01-06 23:03:00 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
In terms of catching ratters, the MSI replaces a skill based mechanic (being good at scanning quickly) with a luck based mechanic (pick a random anom, and warp to it).


MSI spam could be fixed by reducing the duration of the module to something quite low, like 10 or 15 minutes.



I'm so happy that I learned to D-Scan anomalies quickly...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#163 - 2014-01-06 23:03:13 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mobile scan inhibitor should disable dscan or probe scanning for anyone inside of it.

The MMJD is alright I guess. Needs closer inspection. At first I thought it was a "get away free" tool for fleets but with the restrictions that you can't anchor two within 6 km, and it can't be used more than once every 20s renders that somewhat less overpowered.



If the fleet isn't densely packed, they can still extract a lot of ships with these.

Think in a 25 v 22 fight, where the 25 decide they are losing and want to extract. Presently, they order MJD ships to evacuate to sniper range and shoot at both anchored bubbles and ships with local bubbles, then they try to warp, and they lose 7 or 8 stragglers that get pointed or scrammed as well as the 7 or 8 ships that get popped while they are shooting bubbles and/or dictors, so perhaps 10 ships escape.

In the MMJD era, the 25 all drop MMJDs. 18 actually start anchoring (the others are too close), 13 MMJDUs actually anchor and 5 get popped while anchoring. Then those ships with local MJDs use those, then the remaining ships all use an MMJD if they can. Chances are you get a good 16 to 18 of your fleet out alive, a big increase on 10 in the first example.

I agree with your point that the MMJD should need more means of preventing its usage, but keep in mind again there is the fact that you have 12 second spool up for the MMJD, 8 seconds more until someone else can use it, and another 12 second spool up for that second person.

So assuming everyone activates as soon as they possibly can, that's 12 seconds it takes to jump for the first person on that MMJD, and 20 more seconds for the next person, 20 more for the next, etc.


Nevermind I'm ********.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Vatek
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2014-01-06 23:10:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mobile scan inhibitor should disable dscan or probe scanning for anyone inside of it.

The MMJD is alright I guess. Needs closer inspection. At first I thought it was a "get away free" tool for fleets but with the restrictions that you can't anchor two within 6 km, and it can't be used more than once every 20s renders that somewhat less overpowered.



If the fleet isn't densely packed, they can still extract a lot of ships with these.

Think in a 25 v 22 fight, where the 25 decide they are losing and want to extract. Presently, they order MJD ships to evacuate to sniper range and shoot at both anchored bubbles and ships with local bubbles, then they try to warp, and they lose 7 or 8 stragglers that get pointed or scrammed as well as the 7 or 8 ships that get popped while they are shooting bubbles and/or dictors, so perhaps 10 ships escape.

In the MMJD era, the 25 all drop MMJDs. 18 actually start anchoring (the others are too close), 13 MMJDUs actually anchor and 5 get popped while anchoring. Then those ships with local MJDs use those, then the remaining ships all use an MMJD if they can. Chances are you get a good 16 to 18 of your fleet out alive, a big increase on 10 in the first example.

I agree with your point that the MMJD should need more means of preventing its usage, but keep in mind again there is the fact that you have 12 second spool up for the MMJD, 8 seconds more until someone else can use it, and another 12 second spool up for that second person.

So assuming everyone activates as soon as they possibly can, that's 12 seconds it takes to jump for the first person on that MMJD, and 20 more seconds for the next person, 20 more for the next, etc.


It clearly states in the OP that there is no limit on how many people can use it at once and no cooldown, so I'm not sure where you're getting this 20 second thing from.
Gorski Car
#165 - 2014-01-06 23:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorski Car
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Alice Saki wrote:
Terrible.


Gudpoast.

If you're going to post, make it quality. Explain your opinions. "Terrible" is not constructive, and is not at all helpful to making them not "terrible"

Thank you, do not come again.


The rlml thread has shown that ccp doesn't really care about constructive criticism though. They will simply do stuff.

The dscan hiders should not work in deadspace/fw plexes.

Collect this post

Vatek
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#166 - 2014-01-06 23:12:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
If a shiny new thing is far enough along in development to get an F&ID thread they will never ever scrap it so I look forward to having these new deployables forced on us with few (if any) changes.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#167 - 2014-01-06 23:15:14 UTC
Regarding the MSI, Admiral Ackbar said it best

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#168 - 2014-01-06 23:15:15 UTC
Vatek wrote:
If a shiny new thing is far enough along in development to get an F&ID thread they will never ever scrap it so I look forward to having these new deployables forced on us with few (if any) changes.


With 2-3x the anchoring time and 10-20% the hp, the MMJD thing would be pretty balanced.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#169 - 2014-01-06 23:17:37 UTC
Also bastion should prevent use of the MMJD for obvious reasons.
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#170 - 2014-01-06 23:18:57 UTC
This is going to make WH living all kinds of fun.
Fozzie I'm assuming you count WH's as gates for anchoring distance?
Also to confirm, these MMJU's can be anchored next to other deployables within 6km no problems, just not another MMJU?
Vatek
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#171 - 2014-01-06 23:19:06 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Vatek wrote:
If a shiny new thing is far enough along in development to get an F&ID thread they will never ever scrap it so I look forward to having these new deployables forced on us with few (if any) changes.


With 2-3x the anchoring time and 10-20% the hp, the MMJD thing would be pretty balanced.


Scramming the MMJD itself should block it from being used, that's my genius idea. The MMJD is definitely the lesser of two evils here though, the MSI is something that never should have gotten past the design phase.
Ougaa Baalstomp
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2014-01-06 23:20:51 UTC
Seriously?

What a waste of dev resources.

I cant see the point in either of these modules.

I'm sure I have never seen the community clamouring for these ...ever.

pointless waste.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#173 - 2014-01-06 23:23:08 UTC
Ougaa Baalstomp wrote:
Seriously?

What a waste of dev resources.

I cant see the point in either of these modules.

I'm sure I have never seen the community clamouring for these ...ever.

pointless waste.


It is a game designer's job to be visionary.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#174 - 2014-01-06 23:26:35 UTC
Vatek wrote:
It clearly states in the OP that there is no limit on how many people can use it at once and no cooldown, so I'm not sure where you're getting this 20 second thing from.

Yeah, you're right. I was looking at the anchor time. I'm ********.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#175 - 2014-01-06 23:29:12 UTC
Vatek wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Vatek wrote:
If a shiny new thing is far enough along in development to get an F&ID thread they will never ever scrap it so I look forward to having these new deployables forced on us with few (if any) changes.


With 2-3x the anchoring time and 10-20% the hp, the MMJD thing would be pretty balanced.


Scramming the MMJD itself should block it from being used, that's my genius idea.

This is actually a really good idea.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#176 - 2014-01-06 23:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Nope, to both of them.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mobile Micro Jump Unit

This is a bit less egregious than the second one. It is simply not viable due to how alignment mechanics and client lag work.

Are you actually aligned to the guy you want to warp to, or just rubberbanding and actually pointing 60 degrees in another direction? Who knows? Better wait 12 seconds and find out!

While Eve still has no good way to know exactly towards what your ship is pointing, any mechanic that relies on "aiming" your ship is just a bad, bad idea. Bombs are marginally "okay" because they have some give due to their AoE. Something like this has no room for mistakes, especially when propelling you 100 km, where a simple 10 degree deviation throws you 17 km off your mark.


Try this: close your eyes, put a ruler down in an oblique position on your desk, then open just one eye and, without moving your head, accurately pinpoint the most distant object in the room the ruler is pointing at. Hard? Now do it in space, with a non-linearly-shaped ship.

To fix it: Alignment needs to match the actual ship's heading, with some visual indication of what you're actually aligned to. Cool concept, but nightmarishly unusable execution if you want any sort of accuracy with it.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mobile Scan Inhibitor


Trolling people with cloaking wasn't enough, I see. Now we have space shell-games! Featuring two super-fun perspectives:

1. The safest shell game. Something I'm sure a lot of people have already pointed out is that those doing stationary activities (including ratting, mining, missioning, etc) can completely obscure their locations from any interlopers. Not only that, but it is passive -- they do not even have to stop their activity and cloak or warp when a potential target shows up. In addition, they can see the threat coming, without their aggressor even knowing if he's going for a red herring or not.

Picture this: you are raiding an enemy system, and you jump into a system known to be full of vulnerable targets. You see three asteroid belts and an anomaly on d-scan, all with MSIs in them. So you warp to one. 20 seconds of travel later... there's nothing there except some wrecks. You warp to the next. Nope, same thing. On to the next. Nope. And in the last one? Nothing there but some more wrecks. How can this be? Well, at some point during your warping around, you were on the way to the right place. Your mark, though, if it were ever even there, saw you on 10,000,000 km D-scan, and warped off before you could even land on grid.

What could you have done instead? Why was your practiced fast d-scanning and target-finding trumped risk-free by a skill-less spamming of d-scan and warp? (Which, I should mention, gives botting a big pat on the back)

So you do all you can: you spend the next chunk of valuable time, blowing these up, frustrated that what used to be a good chase and a contest between a hunter's skill at finding prey, and the prey's ability to evade... just turned into structure shooting.

The most dangerous shell game. Meanwhile, the vulnerable people in your alliance have noticed MSIs popping up all around the system. Now and again, a hostile sits in the system for hours, just as the "AFK" cloakers of old.* Now and then he pops up kills (or hotdrops)* someone, and then goes away being as invisible as he was before. So you do what is most reasonable to do: you get in your probing ship and probe down the MSI's. But... oh no! Because the hostile can still use his d-scan, he sees that you're probing him down! And, just like the PvEer before, he can warp off before you even know he was there! How's that for fun? So your PvP turns into structure-grinding once again as you tear down his MSIs.

(* Ignore these if you're in a wormhole. All you know is these MSIs on scan are vaguely threatening to your very existence and if you want to know what's actually going on, you have to... you guessed it, grind structures)

Now, one of three things happens: either he leaves since he knows he can't take you (info you don't even know about him); or he returns to you, confident he can kill you, and ganks you as you are structure-grinding (sort of escapable, since the MSI works for you now); or the most fun: he sets up a mobile small warp disruptor inside of another MSI, and waits for you there.

What fun! Isn't it great how this one structure lets any enemy force you either into a compromising PvP situation, into structure grinding, or into just leaving? It doesn't even matter what you're doing, or what skill you have; without information, you are permanently at a disadvantage. I know I can't wait to be a victim of this.

Lastly any sort of disabling of d-scan is a legitimization of the only other instant intel tool: local channel. I thought CCP agreed that using local as an intel tool is awful and needs to be replaced with something better. Why are you pushing for modules that make it more vital to gameplay?

tl;dr: MSIs hate fun.

How to fix it: Put it in the wastebasket, and go back to the drawing board.

I am usually not this negative, but this idea is absolutely purely awful.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Cromwell Savage
The Screaming Seagulls
#177 - 2014-01-06 23:35:28 UTC
With over 4.5 years in FW...this MSI is a firm no-go for me if it can be used inside plexes.

I'm already barely hanging on with the current state of Farm Warfare...this may be the nail in the coffin...
Randy Wray
Warcrows
Shattered Foundations
#178 - 2014-01-06 23:36:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Randy Wray
I don't see what the hell people have going on in their heads when they say this is "interesting". The MMJD is going to completely kill any kiting setups in faction warfare. As people have mentioned earlier it's already gone pretty bad with the depots, pretty much any ship that gets caught by a kiter can just launch a depot, refit warp stabs and warp away!

This is not expanding the sandbox, the warp scrambler is already an extremely powerfull module and now you're restricting it so any solo/small gang pvp setup has to operate within scrambler range fitting a warp scrambler if they want to have any chance at keeping the target tackled.

MJD's only work on battleships for a reason. Keep it that way.

EDIT: Oh and this might be off topic but seriously increase the cargo space required for the depot, right now it's pretty ridiculously low.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#179 - 2014-01-06 23:36:13 UTC
Add-on: Do you really want to make the extremely expensive to fit Expanded Probe Launcher mandatory for intel gathering? Because that's what I'm getting here: an implication that solo pilots, or small gangs who cannot afford to sacrifice one of their pilots to tow around a scanning ship can... well... get dunked.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

mr roadkill
Silent but Violent
#180 - 2014-01-06 23:37:51 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ougaa Baalstomp wrote:
Seriously?

What a waste of dev resources.

I cant see the point in either of these modules.

I'm sure I have never seen the community clamouring for these ...ever.

pointless waste.


It is a game designer's job to be visionary.

-Liang


Actually there is a thread asking for ideas from the community about what structures they wold like to see... The devs picked ones from this collection of terrible suggestions Smile.

I would suggest going to that thread and suggesting our own alternatives.