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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#201 - 2014-01-07 00:36:34 UTC
darius mclever wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
darius mclever wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Also bastion should prevent use of the MMJD for obvious reasons.


so far ... ships with active cynos are allowed to use it. so... at the current logic it seems they should be allowed it.


I'm wondering to myself exactly which direction those ships will be propelled in?


where their nose points to?


Your ship doesn't have a nose, and it doesn't point anywhere that it's not already moving toward.

Your ship is an invisible sphere roughly the size of your sig radius. That fun model that follows it around has no bearing on its movement or heading.
Rukh Solette
Solette Enterprises
#202 - 2014-01-07 00:37:49 UTC
I think these will be interesting and am looking forward to seeing inventive ways of using them.

I do like the suggestion that was made that ships inside the MSI should lose the ability to dscan. The mechanic would be a lot like the ability of a POS shield to prevent targeting.

I also like the idea to make the MMJD jump pilots in one direction. Chasing a ship that uses a MMJD would be very difficult if you had to use the exact same vector that they did to jump after them. 25 ships using a MMJD could potentially end up at 25 different points on a sphere with a diameter of 200km. It seems more balanced to drop those 25 ships all in the same direction to give attackers a chance to follow them.

As far as the ability to use the MMJD while cloaked, I don't think this should be too much of an issue. You have to approach the MMJD and align your ship within a 500m space. If you're further than 2.5k, you can't use the MMJD. If you're closer than 2k, you aren't cloaked.

ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#203 - 2014-01-07 00:39:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ExookiZ
As a wormholer I like the idea of the MSI, but i can't really say the current implementation is something I see helping us at all.

1. Since the structure itself isn't hidden at all, this doesn't really help much at all when creating traps or attempting covert maneuvers. Any PVP corp worth their salt will assume there's a fleet with one and prepare as such.

2. 30 KM is large enough to cloak an entire PVE fleet running capital escalations, making it even safer to run sites than the discovery scanner made it. Proper warpins and webs usually has the BSs within 30 so in many cases youll never even know we are farming.

To that end I find the following a much better interpretation, and offer my suggestions.

1. Shrink it's radius down to 15, if you want to hide a larger fleet use multiple, make coordination required, 15 is also small enough your not running any sites hiding inside these.

2. Don't let the module itself be visible from D scan, if I am taking steps to hide the existence of my fleet, a billboard saying "HEY SOMEONES HERE HIDING THEIR FLEET" doesn't do me any good.

3. To counter the above, allow ships and the module to be scanned down via combat probes, and make it easier to do so.

4. Ships inside the field cannot see outside either, if your combat probing them they don't know it. Make everything hidden to their D scans.

5. Reduce their HP, I dont see the need for it to be so sturdy, its a fragile piece of electronics. This way IF people spam them ceptors/scanners can easily take them out.

tldr; Don't make it show up on D so everyone knows im hiding a ship, that makes it fairly pointless, and also wont make people resort to just spamming them to hide.

Carebears can use it to hide the fact that theyre farming, but wont know your scanning them down either.

Event Organizer of EVE North East

Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#204 - 2014-01-07 00:39:23 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Sura Sadiva wrote:

I will fill my ratting system with 100 MSI. You enter and want to find me. You'll have to probe and warp on grid to see. Reaping this 100 times (in the meantime of course I see you and your probes on MY d-scan). How long will be? Let's see 10 seconds to scan + 20 seconds to warp. 30 seonds repeated 100 times.


How long do you think it will take you to lay down 100 MSI's around the system?

If you're assuming 20 seconds for him to warp - you're either talking about 10AU and up distance between them in a frigate.. right? Or did you mean shorter distances and assume he's in something more like a cruiser?

Well, first of all, to carry 100 MSIs, you're probably going to need an industrial (unless you plan to stop and pick up more from station), which warps as slow as a cruiser, so even a 1,000,000km warp (less than 1AU) will take you 21 seconds to warp. Let's also assume that you have bookmarks set up around the system, so you don't have to create your own.

So dropping off all 100 MSIs will take you, in that industrial, with perfect timing and no pit stops or bookmark making... half an hour to make.

That leaves you an hour and a half to do your ratting before they start disappearing and you need to replace them. Then you get to do it all over again with 100 more MSIs (at a cost of 100 million).

Meanwhile, the guy hunting you is using a covops (as fast as an interceptor) to find you. It takes less effort on his part to find you than it does for you to go through the motions of laying them all out.

Terrible idea is terrible.


The MSI is going to have a 5 mil build cost, so his idea is actually 250 million ISK per hour
STSxLight
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#205 - 2014-01-07 00:45:43 UTC
Dear FOzzie i respect you and your work at CCP but please consider these simple ideas.
I am looking at this module from the perspective of a solo/small gang pvper.

THe Mobile Scan inhibitor is gamebreaking....let me tell you why.

It afects important areas of space.

First of all FW space right now is the ideal place for new players to experiment pvp, and for veteran ones to test their skills in battle. The plex sistem allowed you to truly fight in a nice confined place, with the posibility to see what you will engage and to disengage when you se ships coming on short d-scan.

With this new d-scan disruptor it will change drasticaly, all farmers will use this, and a lot of people will blob using this mechanic thuss discouraging PVP. FW pvp will drop drasticaly, and you will loose a lot of small gang pvpers.

Oke now lets take a look at nullsec. Besides the blobfare,camps, and fast tackle interceptors with bubble imunity, a small fleet could recive intel via the d-scan and try to separate gans on field, or make a tactice to destroy the blob or the gate camp with pure tactice and game knowlege.

With the new stupid dumb awful disruptor you wont have any intel, eve if you have a scaning ship, a buble with ships,cans will anihilate that thuss eliminating any change of geting valuable intel to fight vs the blob.

So boom you are eliminatig a lot of solo/small gang pvp in null with this item because you are forced to bring scaning ship that will eventualy die because every device like this will have a buble in its range.

I havent got a lot of exp in WH but, d-scan is the most valuable EVE asset in WH space, so basicaly you are taking that away from them to.

SO with just one module you anihilate a lof of FW pvp,null pvp, and wh basic lifestyle, all with a simple item that you force upon us, please make new ship, pos,stations, ship modules, NOT these things wich will deeply impact a lot of game aspects that we truly enjoy in one sweep.

"Oh, you think nullsec is your ally. But you merely adopted nullsec; I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but BLINDING!"

my eve youtube channel  http://www.youtube.com/user/stsxlight/videos

Rukh Solette
Solette Enterprises
#206 - 2014-01-07 00:46:01 UTC
Also, as far as spamming MSIs goes:

5m/unit, 50m3/unit, 2hr life

Reducing the chance of somebody warping to you on the first attempt to 10% using 10 MSIs costs 25m/hour. Worth it?

Rukh Solette
Solette Enterprises
#207 - 2014-01-07 00:51:12 UTC
I propose the following change to the Mobile Scan Inhibitor:

Continue to block the ability to see ships within the MSI bubble on D-scan, but:

Give Combat Scanner Probes the ability to detect the number of ships in the bubble, but not the type.

For example, I see a MSI on dscan. I drop probes and scan it down, I see signatures for 12 ships of unknown type.
Laventhros Ormus
The Shadovar Legion
#208 - 2014-01-07 00:52:11 UTC
LEARN TO ADAPT

That is all.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#209 - 2014-01-07 00:58:23 UTC
I can't help but wonder where my Mobile Local Disruptor is. One could argue it would be more useful than the directional scanner thing. Blink
STSxLight
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#210 - 2014-01-07 01:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: STSxLight
Oke lets take a look at the Micro Jump drive.

Initialy it sounds good, but when you take a deep perspective on it it is NOT.

NOW all of eve pvp revolves around Rock Paper Spock combat. Let me explain, as a brawler you try to dps the hell out of other ships from close range, or separate a gang killing them one by one than escaping, thus requiring a lof of skill. A lot of brawlers as you well know learn to SPiral and Slingshot catching the kiter, developing true piloting skill.

Now the kiter evolves its skill by manual piloting, managing ranges, and keeping brawlers or other kiters an range, or as you have see in many pvp video and situations sperating large gangs and killing them. This is viable both solo and small gang fleets wich is the true beauty of eve.

With this item placed strategicaly a brawler will always escape a KIter thuss distroying the balance. Trust me every brawler will have one and every brawler ratter etc will escape a kiter. Now the new meta prefers sniping nano kity stuff, so basicaly the prey will always be able to escape, if lets say a profecy fleet gets bubles and shot by nagas at range the simply deploy these things and you only need 1 active to escape.

The main concern is giving the brawler the means to escape efectly the kiter. You give the Rock the means to Counter Paper in every situation DAMIT.

How about sniping fleets and the I AM THERE trailer , catching a sniping fleet providing a warp in is nice, now a sniping fleet can deploy these and even if you are brave avoid 200 km of fire and get a warp in, the fleet can now MWJ away dosent matter if they have a mJD or not.

So basicaly its another small module that discourages small gang pvp, even fleet pvp, both modules giving people huge means of disengaging.

Please hear me ut and read the arguments, You are efectivly giving more means to pilots to evade pvp, this is EVE it suposed to be a crue dark place, where not eve in highsec you are not safe yet you encourage Disengaging from pvp more and more.

For what? only to have funn with new modules? to test the modular items? STop making suck game breaking things and focus on the important this wich are and have always been space ships themselfs. Not 100 floating items in space.

Best regards STS. Sry for my spelling just woke up and saw this horrible ideas of modules.

You are inteligent fozzi stop making these. Let us pvp and burn our ships, let us teach noobs how to d-scan and get intel o n the field.

Let us REMAIN THE HUNTER stop giving the prey means to escape making the game easymode.

"Oh, you think nullsec is your ally. But you merely adopted nullsec; I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but BLINDING!"

my eve youtube channel  http://www.youtube.com/user/stsxlight/videos

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#211 - 2014-01-07 01:03:57 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I can't help but wonder where my Mobile Local Disruptor is. One could argue it would be more useful than the directional scanner thing. Blink


At least it doesn't actively screw over the wormhole community. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2014-01-07 01:10:50 UTC
Powers Sa wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

This is the structure that caused the biggest buzz from the recent round of Chaos observation, time for some details that I think will significantly change how you all see it.

This structure prevents anything inside its 30km radius from appearing on either DScan or Probe Scans. The Scan Inhibitor structure itself however does show up on both types of scan and is very easy to probe down. So you can prevent people from knowing what is inside it but you can't prevent people from knowing that something is there.

Players inside the radius of the structure will be able to scan as normal, except that they won't get scan results from anything that's right beside them inside the radius.

Another single use structure, no rescooping.
Current stats are 60s activation time, 2h lifetime, 45k ehp (once again mostly structure), 50m3 volume and a build cost of ~5m isk.
Like I said above, it has an effective radius of 30km, meaning that even if you're at the edge, someone warping to 0 on it can still catch you fairly easily, especially with inties.
Can't be deployed within 75km of gates or stations, or within 40km of control towers. Can't be deployed within 40km of another scan inhibitor so you can overlap them but you can never use one to mask the central structure of another.


This is massively broken if the radius is bigger than 15km (30km diameter), and the build cost needs to be that of like a t2 medium bubble or a t1 large bubble.

With a 30km radius you can hide capfleets and super fleets.

So you can hide cap and supercap fleets? That's the point I think. Too much information from D-Scan and local for too long makes you think that's a bad idea. Its a good idea actually. Dynamic combat > knowing everything and blueballing unless you know you have huge numerical superiority.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#213 - 2014-01-07 01:17:09 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

So you can hide cap and supercap fleets? That's the point I think. Too much information from D-Scan and local for too long makes you think that's a bad idea. Its a good idea actually. Dynamic combat > knowing everything and blueballing unless you know you have huge numerical superiority.

Which is what anyone using MSIs will do. It's not dynamic when only one side knows everything.

Or are you suggesting that the module should be renamed to Mandatory Sensor Inhibitor because everyone will need to have it unless they want to be at a huge disadvantage? Isn't that mandatory line of thought too similar to that behind why supercaps got nerfed (more mandatory to be competitive) or why off-grid boosts are going to be nerfed soon (mandatory to be competitive)?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#214 - 2014-01-07 01:18:40 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

So you can hide cap and supercap fleets? That's the point I think. Too much information from D-Scan and local for too long makes you think that's a bad idea. Its a good idea actually. Dynamic combat > knowing everything and blueballing unless you know you have huge numerical superiority.


I don't know if that's true. The desire to know everything simply means that many combat opportunities will pass without action because the scout wasn't in place to investigate the D-Scan ****** Upper in a reasonable time frame. Thus, while you expect overall combat to increase, I would expect it to actually decrease.

Also, according to your own logic then every ship should be able to cyno to any other ship so that combat can be more "dynamic".

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#215 - 2014-01-07 01:22:34 UTC
Stop introducing features who's only purpose is to prevent or hinder PVP.



If they don't want to its called Hi sec.

Rote Kapelle - NOW IN SLIGHTLY MORE LAW ABIDING FLAVOR!

"DRINK STARSI!" ©®™Ownership Group Chairman

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#216 - 2014-01-07 01:32:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I would expect it to actually decrease.


So does EA.
Mr Doctor
Sex Machineguns
#217 - 2014-01-07 01:33:11 UTC
How does it do that? If anything its a big sign saying "scan me and fight me!".

To be honest, they seem ineffectual though I also dont want them to be unscanable so... meh... mobile rep station powered by nanite paste (doesnt rep if you have weapons timer) would be better.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#218 - 2014-01-07 01:33:30 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I would expect it to actually decrease.


So does EA.


I thought CCP was buddying up to Sony, not EA?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#219 - 2014-01-07 01:35:57 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I would expect it to actually decrease.


So does EA.


I thought CCP was buddying up to Sony, not EA?

-Liang


Sony gave them the taste for it. EA will end up being the sugar daddy.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#220 - 2014-01-07 01:37:59 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I would expect it to actually decrease.


So does EA.


I thought CCP was buddying up to Sony, not EA?

-Liang


Sony gave them the taste for it. EA will end up being the sugar daddy.

Unsubbed my 27 accounts just in case.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)