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Returning from a long break,,,,, question about griefers
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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#281 - 2014-01-07 15:16:18 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
And please, AGAIN can you tell me how SHIELDS make a PROCURER less good at MINING


I think the impetus behind this McCandless is that in order to load up the low slots with Mining Upgrade IIs your CPU has no more processing power for any shield extenders. Therefore, in order to squeeze every bit of efficiency from the strip miners you have to leave the Shield Extenders and Invulnerability Field unfitted or offlined.

I haven't actually done the PYFA-warrioring to confirm this but believe this to be at least somewhat accurate.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#282 - 2014-01-07 15:31:41 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
And please, AGAIN can you tell me how SHIELDS make a PROCURER less good at MINING


I think the impetus behind this McCandless is that in order to load up the low slots with Mining Upgrade IIs your CPU has no more processing power for any shield extenders. Therefore, in order to squeeze every bit of efficiency from the strip miners you have to leave the Shield Extenders and Invulnerability Field unfitted or offlined.

I haven't actually done the PYFA-warrioring to confirm this but believe this to be at least somewhat accurate.



I can confirm this is not the case.

The CPU on a Procurer is pretty decent, and besides, there are skills which help with that..

Oh wait, trainin skills, I forgot skills should probably be given out to miners at the start of the game too

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#283 - 2014-01-07 15:39:51 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:


Exploring: Buzzard. Armament: None Designed for commando and espionage operation
Salvaging: Any Destoryer with tractors and salvager Armament: None Destroyers offer impressive offensive capabilities (keyword versatile, not efficient)
Noob Training: Any ship, Armament: Variable umm.. okay, mining in a noob is efficient?
Cynoalting: Any noob ship, Armament: None again, versatile but not efficient
Courier: Transport, Armament: none Already stipulated

How is there fighting in these professions?
And apart from the Destroyer, how are they designed for combat?

And please, AGAIN can you tell me how SHIELDS make a PROCURER less good at MINING


You seem to scoff at the idea of efficiency as a goal for miners. Like it's completely useless in Eve since, duh! people will kill you easier if you fit for maximum efficiency! This is the root of the problem.

A combat ship is already fitted to maximum efficiency to serve in the role for which is was created! Fighting! A mining ship is *not* as free to fit in a way to make it as efficient as said combat ship, due to the actions of other players. Miners can do it and roll the dice, or they can sacrifice some mining efficiency to be a little more likely to survive a gank attempt.

Again, you wouldn't take your combat ship and fit expanded cargo holds or probe launchers if the activity you are doing has no use for them. Not if you wanted to get through the combat as fast and safely as you can. But you are saying miners have to equip safety modules that could end up making their mining less effective, meaning they have to do it far longer than is fun.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2014-01-07 15:42:28 UTC
Funny arguments. If I read that correctly, miners shouldn't have the need to tank properly, because they aren't designed to blow up?

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#285 - 2014-01-07 15:50:57 UTC
No, miners should have better inherant protections in highsec meaning their chances of surviving an attack are better without having to replace mining equipment with defensive equipment.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#286 - 2014-01-07 15:51:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:


Exploring: Buzzard. Armament: None Designed for commando and espionage operation
Salvaging: Any Destoryer with tractors and salvager Armament: None Destroyers offer impressive offensive capabilities (keyword versatile, not efficient)
Noob Training: Any ship, Armament: Variable umm.. okay, mining in a noob is efficient?
Cynoalting: Any noob ship, Armament: None again, versatile but not efficient
Courier: Transport, Armament: none Already stipulated

How is there fighting in these professions?
And apart from the Destroyer, how are they designed for combat?

And please, AGAIN can you tell me how SHIELDS make a PROCURER less good at MINING


You seem to scoff at the idea of efficiency as a goal for miners. Like it's completely useless in Eve since, duh! people will kill you easier if you fit for maximum efficiency! This is the root of the problem.

A combat ship is already fitted to maximum efficiency to serve in the role for which is was created! Fighting! A mining ship is *not* as free to fit in a way to make it as efficient as said combat ship, due to the actions of other players. Miners can do it and roll the dice, or they can sacrifice some mining efficiency to be a little more likely to survive a gank attempt.

Again, you wouldn't take your combat ship and fit expanded cargo holds or probe launchers if the activity you are doing has no use for them. Not if you wanted to get through the combat as fast and safely as you can. But you are saying miners have to equip safety modules that could end up making their mining less effective, meaning they have to do it far longer than is fun.



*Blinks* Reading your notes on what Ive said about ships, do you think IM suggesting mining in those ships? Because way to pick that up wrong!

Second, Im not scoffing at efficency. Im saying in what way do shields effect mining efficency?

Ok Ill make it easy: They dont. So put some on, and out-tank those gankers, okay?

Stop it with the "Theres combat, and theres mining".

BUZZARDS (IE SCANNING SHIPS, you know for doing DATA and RELIC SITES) DONT FIGHT
CYNOSHIPS DONT FIGHT
SALVAGE BARGES DONT FIGHT

Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#287 - 2014-01-07 15:54:34 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
No, miners should have better inherant protections in highsec meaning their chances of surviving an attack are better without having to replace mining equipment with defensive equipment.


Ive asked this four different ways so far, so heres a fifth


What mining equipment is it that goes in a medium slot?


A rock scanner?

You think a rock scanner makes for a more efficent build than an invul, or a ward, or a booster or an extender?

REALLY?

REALLY?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#288 - 2014-01-07 15:55:24 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
No, miners should have better inherant protections in highsec meaning their chances of surviving an attack are better without having to replace mining equipment with defensive equipment.

Mining ships have already been rebalanced once and they were given too much tank. Next pass will probably see their fitting options limited even more.

Oh god.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#289 - 2014-01-07 16:07:40 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Again, you wouldn't take your combat ship and fit expanded cargo holds or probe launchers if the activity you are doing has no use for them. Not if you wanted to get through the combat as fast and safely as you can. But you are saying miners have to equip safety modules that could end up making their mining less effective, meaning they have to do it far longer than is fun.


I wouldn't take a combat ship into a mission without fitting a tank to it. I could. I could sacrifice survivability for additional DPS so I can increase my efficiency. The reason I don't is because that my efficiency, while important, is not as important to me as finishing the mission in a ship bigger than a pod.

BUT YOU WILL NOT LISTEN TO REASON.

YOU WILL CONTINUE TO ARGUE EVERY POINT OR PIECE OF ADVICE GIVEN TO YOU.

THE ONLY SOLUTION IN YOUR EYES IS ONE MORE NERF.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#290 - 2014-01-07 16:16:46 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:


THE ONLY SOLUTION IS TO SHOOT NERFS INTO YOUR EYES.



I concur

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#291 - 2014-01-07 16:17:24 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
No, miners should have better inherant protections in highsec meaning their chances of surviving an attack are better without having to replace mining equipment with defensive equipment.


So your argument is NOT that gankers prevent you from having fun but that they prevent you from maximizing ISK/hr?

Brilliant!

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#292 - 2014-01-07 16:21:59 UTC
Sheesh, no need to get all hyper. It's fine if you don't agree with me, but your 'reasonable' advice directly contradicts the point of what I've written. I will try to boil it down, again.

The reasonable advice to fit a tank to a mining vessel (not just a single ship, btw, but any of the ships designed for mining) means that some mining efficiency must be sacrificed (on most mining ships). Combat ships do not have to face that choice.

A combat ship/activity in a ship designed for combat/activities doesn't have to decide if they want to either maximize their combat efficiency (offensive and defensive modules), OR fit non-combat-type modules. They just fit for combat.

I'm beginning to think you are willfully choosing not to recognize this disparity, in favor of zero tolerance for anything that might make highsec a little more secure.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#293 - 2014-01-07 16:23:52 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:

The reasonable advice to fit a tank to a mining vessel (not just a single ship, btw, but any of the ships designed for mining) means that some mining efficiency must be sacrificed (on most mining ships). Combat ships do not have to face that choice.



And as we have ask so many times its getting really boring; What efficency do you lose when you fit shield modules to a procurer?

And (again) combat ships DO have to make efficency choices, though that is not relevant to the entire point of the thread.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#294 - 2014-01-07 16:24:00 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
And please, AGAIN can you tell me how SHIELDS make a PROCURER less good at MINING


I think the impetus behind this McCandless is that in order to load up the low slots with Mining Upgrade IIs your CPU has no more processing power for any shield extenders. Therefore, in order to squeeze every bit of efficiency from the strip miners you have to leave the Shield Extenders and Invulnerability Field unfitted or offlined.

I haven't actually done the PYFA-warrioring to confirm this but believe this to be at least somewhat accurate.



I can confirm this is not the case.

The CPU on a Procurer is pretty decent, and besides, there are skills which help with that..

Oh wait, trainin skills, I forgot skills should probably be given out to miners at the start of the game too


I stand corrected. With all skills at V you can fit 2 MU IIs in the low slots and a MSE II and Adapt Invul II, leaving two more medium slots for a rock scanner and maybe an AB?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#295 - 2014-01-07 16:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Kimmi Chan wrote:


I stand corrected. With all skills at V you can fit 2 MU IIs in the low slots and a MSE II and Adapt Invul II, leaving two more medium slots for a rock scanner and maybe an AB?



No need, you get EHP 24,000+ with T1 modules for a fraction of the price, which is...GASP MORE EFFICENT use of isk

You can go up to 41,000+ without taxing your skills too badly

Forget the AB, use 1 EM Ward, 1 Med Extender, and then either a Invul and Rock scanner (if your a bit weak at using the over view) or two Invuls.

Of course, for the Mining Coinesewer, use a sKiff

More sham-pagin?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#296 - 2014-01-07 16:26:37 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
that some mining efficiency must be sacrificed

They already have efficient mining. They're not sacrificing mining efficiency for tank, they're sacrificing tank for even more mining efficiency (i.e greedy and deserves to die).

Oh god.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#297 - 2014-01-07 16:28:38 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
You do not understand.

I explain it calmly, using a tale you claim to be familiar with and STIlLL you refuse to see.

Tell me, are you aware of what a metaphor is?
You didn't explain anything. You simply stated you tell newbies a story which is of no real relevance to their situation.

Kimmi Chan wrote:
I can't give specific figures because I am not a miner but I would imagine that it takes at least 2-3 months to get into a Retriever with enough skill to make it worthwhile. These people you are defending are not "newbies". They're lazy. They're AFK. They're not fitting their ship appropriately to avoid or mitigate a gank.

The only helpless victims in this game are the people that choose to be helpless victims. Please forgive me for not having sympathy for a person that makes that choice.
I'll help you out there. It takes 8 days,

And no, generally the AFK ones don't care about the bumping, since they are AFK and the experienced ones know where to go to avoid people. The ones that generally tend to get targeted are relatively new and inexperienced. There's nothing telling them in the NPE "by the way, it's possible for someone to bump you for several hours causing you to be completely unable to align ore move, and it's fully within the rules".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#298 - 2014-01-07 16:29:26 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
The reasonable advice to fit a tank to a mining vessel (not just a single ship, btw, but any of the ships designed for mining) means that some mining efficiency must be sacrificed (on most mining ships).


Then you have a choice -

1) Fit a tank and increase your potential of surviving a gank attempt.

Or

2) Don't fit a tank and take your chances.

Your choice. Makes no difference to me how you want to play your game. I would just ask that you stop trying to change it, make your choice, and shaddup about what happened as a result of your choice.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#299 - 2014-01-07 16:30:29 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
You do not understand.

I explain it calmly, using a tale you claim to be familiar with and STIlLL you refuse to see.

Tell me, are you aware of what a metaphor is?
You didn't explain anything. You simply stated you tell newbies a story which is of no real relevance to their situation..



I get it already, subtly and metaphor is something you have no knowledge or undertanding of


Im not about to explain to you what the other 98% of humanity can understand easily

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Frumpylumps Faplord
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#300 - 2014-01-07 16:30:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Frumpylumps Faplord
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:


I'm beginning to think you are willfully choosing not to recognize this disparity, in favor of zero tolerance for anything that might make highsec a little more secure.


Yea, haha! the moment you mention any suggestion that high sec "pirates" shouldn't have it so easy, you get these same rabid grief monkeys descending on the threat, hurling their illogical mind-vomit in all directions in a spastic fit. Notice how its the same few guys spamming this thread with their warped views repeatedly? They will never recognize the imbalance that high sec pirates takes zero risks and pay very negligible costs to do what they do.

You are completely right btw, making high sec PVErs immune to the grief tactics of these low-life individuals wouldn't break the game in any way, in fact, it would be highly beneficial for the game.