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Returning from a long break,,,,, question about griefers
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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#241 - 2014-01-07 12:48:13 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
We don't give our newbies that, we just kill them mercilessly, because we are bigger, tougher and more experienced than they are.


I can't give specific figures because I am not a miner but I would imagine that it takes at least 2-3 months to get into a Retriever with enough skill to make it worthwhile. These people you are defending are not "newbies". They're lazy. They're AFK. They're not fitting their ship appropriately to avoid or mitigate a gank.

The only helpless victims in this game are the people that choose to be helpless victims. Please forgive me for not having sympathy for a person that makes that choice.


"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#242 - 2014-01-07 12:55:23 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:


NO ONE is advocating "hassling new players for no reason beyond boredom".

In fact, hassling new players is strictly against the EULA and the mdoerated rules of both the game and the forums.



This is the central blindness/stubbornness of those in the "it's fine the way it is, don't change anything" crowd.

Hassling includes ganking.
Hassling includes scamming contracts.
Hassling includes bumping.
Hassling includes tricking people into becoming a 'suspect'. See #1.

Hassling is a more PC term for griefing. New players get griefed and they get frustrated. Then they quit. Good job CCP! Yes, players can and *should* learn how to protect themselves better. But that takes time. Literally weeks, of you consider the time it takes to train up skills enough to be able to use the tools effectively. It would be interesting to find out how long the average new player lasts. 3 days? A week?

So while the gank-supporters are all for the system as-is, people like me are looking for modest changes to highsec. You gank-supporters see the only 2 options as being either the way it is, or 'hello kitty online', but that's just dumb. I don't see why the educated vet's on these forums are so earnest in their support for the bullies in game who like to play the Eve version of the 'knock-out game'.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#243 - 2014-01-07 13:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:


Hassling includes ganking. (Citation needed)
Hassling includes scamming contracts. (Citation needed)
Hassling includes bumping. (No citation needed, CCP has stated it only does so under particular circumstances)
Hassling includes tricking people into becoming a 'suspect'. See #1. (Citation needed)

Hassling is a more PC term for griefing. New players get griefed and they get frustrated. Then they quit. Good job CCP! Yes, players can and *should* learn how to protect themselves better. But that takes time. Literally weeks, of you consider the time it takes to train up skills enough to be able to use the tools effectively. It would be interesting to find out how long the average new player lasts. 3 days? A week?


Please supply evidence to support this hypothesis. My own tests prove that only 10% of cases I personally studied resulted in this, and it was because the player felt that mining while they LEFT THEIR HOUSE was an acceptable form of interaction with the game. Do you think his right to go to the shops while mining should be protected?

ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
So while the gank-supporters are all for the system as-is, people like me are looking for modest changes to highsec. You gank-supporters see the only 2 options as being either the way it is, or 'hello kitty online', but that's just dumb. I don't see why the educated vet's on these forums are so earnest in their support for the bullies in game who like to play the Eve version of the 'knock-out game'.


Why do you insist on this myth that there are two groups: Pro-solo players and Pro-Gankers to the exculsion of all else?

As neither a ganker nor a miner I can say you are wrong on this. Factually wrong.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#244 - 2014-01-07 13:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
So while the gank-supporters are all for the system as-is, people like me are looking for modest changes to highsec. You gank-supporters see the only 2 options as being either the way it is, or 'hello kitty online', but that's just dumb. I don't see why the educated vet's on these forums are so earnest in their support for the bullies in game who like to play the Eve version of the 'knock-out game'.


Modest changes to highsec? That is NOT what you want. You want it to be safe. It's not. Get over it.

The educated vets on these forums are not so earnest in their support of bullies. Most of us are enjoying the game exactly as it is. Even us veteran high sec carebears ( 0/ ) are not interested in your "modest" changes and in that we have earnest opposition.

You should know the history here. A few years back (I'd have to go digging for it or someone else can go find it) James 315 posted a Manifesto about how all highsec carebears want "One more nerf". They want CONCORD to be tougher. They want Barges and Exhumers to be tougher. They want it to be harder to gank. All day, everyday carebear miners would (and clearly continue to) come to this forum and demand "one more nerf". The end goal of all the "one more nerf"s being 100% safety in high sec.

You want to know who's to blame for minerbumping, ganking, and this hassling you describe?

People like you!

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#245 - 2014-01-07 13:16:29 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:


You want to know who's to blame for minerbumping, ganking, and this hassling you describe?

People like you!



HEAR HEAR!!

*Bangs shoe on the table loudly*

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#246 - 2014-01-07 13:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:

This is the central blindness/stubbornness of those in the "it's fine the way it is, don't change anything" crowd.

Hassling includes ganking.
Hassling includes scamming contracts.
Hassling includes bumping.
Hassling includes tricking people into becoming a 'suspect'. See #1.
All of these are accept styles of gameplay, when not done to excess. If CCP thinks people are stepping over the line between acceptable and unacceptable they will let us know.

Quote:
Hassling is a more PC term for griefing. New players get griefed and they get frustrated. Then they quit. Good job CCP! Yes, players can and *should* learn how to protect themselves better. But that takes time. Literally weeks, of you consider the time it takes to train up skills enough to be able to use the tools effectively. It would be interesting to find out how long the average new player lasts. 3 days? A week?
Nope harassment is against the rules, as is griefing. I won't argue against newbies needing to be better informed of the nature of Eve before they undock, a more informed newbie is a newbie who has an inkling of what they're signing themselves up for.

Quote:
So while the gank-supporters are all for the system as-is, people like me are looking for modest changes to highsec. You gank-supporters see the only 2 options as being either the way it is, or 'hello kitty online', but that's just dumb. I don't see why the educated vet's on these forums are so earnest in their support for the bullies in game who like to play the Eve version of the 'knock-out game'.
Because we've seen people like you come and go repeatedly over the years, you and your ilk will be the death of independent gaming devs, you come into an established game and try and change it to suit yourself, and screw all the players who've put time and money into it over the years because they like it the way it is. If you succeed in changing it, you leave for the next big thing after 3 months because you're now bored, leaving the core audience with a broken game. You're like locusts.

Do yourself a favour, move onto a game that is more to your taste, many of us have found one that we like, and you're trying to ruin it. Think of it this way, if you want to see Eve style shenanigans happening on an MMO server near you, carry on along the path you're so blindly following.

This also applies :
Malcanis' Law wrote:
  • Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of ‘new players’, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
  • The secondary corollary is that when new players propose a change, they invariably lack the experience and insight to see how the change would again be exploited by older players far more efficiently than themselves.

    • edit ~ I am aware that your character is 5 years old. That doesn't exclude you from being a newbie.

    In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

    New Player FAQ

    Feyd's Survival Pack
    Kimmi Chan
    Tastes Like Purple
    #247 - 2014-01-07 13:25:31 UTC
    Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
    Because we've seen people like you come and go repeatedly over the years, you and your ilk will be the death of independent gaming devs, you come into an established game and try and change it to suit yourself, and screw all the players who've put time and money into it over the years because they like it the way it is, and if you succeed in changing it, you leave for the next big thing and leave us with a broken game. You're like locusts.

    Do yourself a favour, move onto a game that is more to your taste, many of us have found one that we like, and you're trying to ruin it. Think of it this way, if you want to see Eve style shenanigans happening on an MMO server near you, carry on along the path you're so blindly following.

    This also applies :
    Malcanis' Law wrote:
  • Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of ‘new players’, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
  • The secondary corollary is that when new players propose a change, they invariably lack the experience and insight to see how the change would again be exploited by older players far more efficiently than themselves.


    • Seconded.

    "Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

    www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
    Ramona McCandless
    Silent Vale
    LinkNet
    #248 - 2014-01-07 13:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
    ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
    Yes, players can and *should* learn how to protect themselves better. But that takes time. Literally weeks, of you consider the time it takes to train up skills enough to be able to use the tools effectively..



    Confirming: Tactical Shield Manipulation 3/4 takes "weeks"

    "Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

    "A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
    Riot Girl
    You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
    #249 - 2014-01-07 13:34:16 UTC
    I want to hear about these modest changes. Call it morbid curiosity.

    Oh god.
    Jonah Gravenstein
    Machiavellian Space Bastards
    #250 - 2014-01-07 13:37:50 UTC
    Riot Girl wrote:
    I want to hear about these modest changes. Call it morbid curiosity.

    "Highsec, A New Vision"

    In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

    New Player FAQ

    Feyd's Survival Pack
    Kimmi Chan
    Tastes Like Purple
    #251 - 2014-01-07 13:38:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
    ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
    Yes, players can and *should* learn how to protect themselves better. But that takes time. Literally weeks, of you consider the time it takes to train up skills enough to be able to use the tools effectively..


    You wouldn't pilot an RNI into a level 4 mission without training all the support skills you need to do so effectively. Doing so would put you in jeopardy of losing your pretty RNI. There is not a shred of difference. If you don't have the necessary skills to pilot the ship, either don't pilot the ship OR possess some semblance of intellect to know that whatever happened because you did pilot the ship was your fault and not the fault of "poor game design".

    Ramona McCandless wrote:
    Confirming: Tactical Shield Manipulation 3/4 takes "weeks"


    But then he'd have to wait before training Mining Upgrades IV!!! Also ISK/hr!!!

    "Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

    www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
    Ramona McCandless
    Silent Vale
    LinkNet
    #252 - 2014-01-07 13:46:53 UTC
    Kimmi Chan wrote:


    But then he'd have to wait before training Mining Upgrades IV!!! Also ISK/hr!!!



    CCP should make it so you can fly a fully kitted Mackinaw as your noobship for trial accounts.

    But all other professions should start in an Ibis thats on fire.

    That would make it fair on the poor mining characters.

    "Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

    "A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
    Scarlett Wesson
    Doomheim
    #253 - 2014-01-07 13:49:25 UTC
    ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
    I don't see why the educated vet's on these forums are so earnest in their support for the bullies in game who like to play the Eve version of the 'knock-out game'.



    Dude, you're wasting your time. You're arguing with people liking "tears". This "game" allows them to be jerks and to make other people miserable, and they love it, hiding behind "this is just a game" excuses, while blatantly ignoring that nearly all of the steps towards building something in EvE are boring as hell (whether ISK grinding or Production), thus being really annoying when you happen to lose it. Why would they accept to have it changed in order to protect their victims?

    They don't care about the fact that the mining mechanic encourages players to AFK to not die of boredom. The "AFKness", "non-tankiness" or whatnot of their victims is just an excuse to let their inner asshats take control without risk of getting their ass kicked like in RL.

    A lot of people in here seem to forget the definition of "griefing", since EvE has its own meaning of the term. Nearly every form of player interaction would be banned if the real definition was used and enforced. That shows how much this game lacks content, relying on its playerbase's asshattery to do all the work. Long live the Litter box!

    I suggest you move to another game, a real game, a fun one. As it is, the community is worse than it was when you left, and it won't get better.
    ZynnLee Akkori
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #254 - 2014-01-07 13:52:36 UTC
    Ramona McCandless wrote:


    Why do you insist on this myth that there are two groups: Pro-solo players and Pro-Gankers to the exculsion of all else?

    As neither a ganker nor a miner I can say you are wrong on this. Factually wrong.

    I've never suggested there are only 'pro-solo' and 'pro-ganking' groups. I thought it was pretty clear. Pro-ganking, and anti-ganking. There really is only 2 sides to this, like most things. Either you are okay with ganking, or not. Clearly there are many on either side, with the advantage on the pro-ganking side. Which includes CCP, sadly. But that does not mean that things can change, as many gankers have already expressed frustration with (can flipping changes and the like).

    Eve's "harsh nature" won't be ruined by allowing people in highsec a little more protection against what we feel is anti-social bullying. I've said it many times before, and I'll keep saying it: I don't want 100% protection in highsec. Just make the decision to gank a much more serious one. I'll also add something I've not yet admitted. I have no sympathy for those who afk play, for any reason. I am very much opposed to botting. Heck, I don't even like multi-boxing, although I am seriously considering doing it myself to have a logi support my miner.
    Riot Girl
    You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
    #255 - 2014-01-07 13:54:37 UTC
    ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
    Just make the decision to gank a much more serious one.

    How?

    Oh god.
    ZynnLee Akkori
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #256 - 2014-01-07 13:55:12 UTC
    Kimmi Chan wrote:


    Modest changes to highsec? That is NOT what you want. You want it to be safe. It's not. Get over it.

    While your at it, could you let me know what I really want for dinner tonight? I might not know.
    Victor Dathar
    Lowlife.
    Snuffed Out
    #257 - 2014-01-07 13:57:29 UTC
    I am a 0.4 warp core stabilizing grifer

    ^^^ lol that post is so bad you should get back 2 GBS m8 o7

    @grr_goons : Wisdom, Insight, GBS Posts
    Kimmi Chan
    Tastes Like Purple
    #258 - 2014-01-07 14:00:57 UTC
    Scarlett Wesson wrote:
    Dude, you're wasting your time. You're arguing with people liking "tears". This "game" allows them to be jerks and to make other people miserable, and they love it, hiding behind "this is just a game" excuses, while blatantly ignoring that nearly all of the steps towards building something in EvE are boring as hell (whether ISK grinding or Production), thus being really annoying when you happen to lose it. Why would they accept to have it changed in order to protect their victims?


    High sec mission running bear here. It is annoying when you happen to lose your stuff. But to demand the game be changed so you can keep your stuff without taking any responsibility for keeping your stuff is asinine. Also my victims are NPC rats and I don't care about their tears as long as they are blowing up.

    Scarlett Wesson wrote:
    They don't care about the fact that the mining mechanic encourages players to AFK to not die of boredom. The "AFKness", "non-tankiness" or whatnot of their victims is just an excuse to let their inner asshats take control without risk of getting their ass kicked like in RL.


    I honestly don't even know where to start with this. The fact that the mining mechanic is boring is not sufficient justification for not playing the game. Miners have chosen to mine. The idea that because it's boring one should be able to AFK is ludicrous. If it bores you that much don't do it and find something you can actually be engaged in.

    Scarlett Wesson wrote:
    A lot of people in here seem to forget the definition of "griefing", since EvE has its own meaning of the term. Nearly every form of player interaction would be banned if the real definition was used and enforced. That shows how much this game lacks content, relying on its playerbase's asshattery to do all the work. Long live the Litter box!


    Shooting at peoples spaceships in a game about shooting at spaceships is not griefing.

    Scarlett Wesson wrote:
    I suggest you move to another game, a real game, a fun one. As it is, the community is worse than it was when you left, and it won't get better.


    There is literally no word in the English language that describes how much I agree with this statement. If you don't want to play the game as it is then don't play. Easy.

    "Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

    www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
    Kimmi Chan
    Tastes Like Purple
    #259 - 2014-01-07 14:03:14 UTC
    ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
    Kimmi Chan wrote:


    Modest changes to highsec? That is NOT what you want. You want it to be safe. It's not. Get over it.

    While your at it, could you let me know what I really want for dinner tonight? I might not know.


    I'd be delighted to tell you what you want for dinner...



    One more nerf.

    "Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

    www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
    Jonah Gravenstein
    Machiavellian Space Bastards
    #260 - 2014-01-07 14:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
    Scarlett Wesson wrote:

    Dude, you're wasting your time. You're arguing with people liking "tears". This "game" allows them to be jerks and to make other people miserable, and they love it, hiding behind "this is just a game" excuses, while blatantly ignoring that nearly all of the steps towards building something in EvE are boring as hell (whether ISK grinding or Production), thus being really annoying when you happen to lose it. Why would they accept to have it changed in order to protect their victims?
    Why do the victims not protect themselves? Eve is marketed as a PvP game, why are people so surprised and outraged when it happens to them? Why do they not take some measures to prevent it happening to them?

    Official New Player FAQ : 7 PVP (PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER) wrote:
    The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment. As has been mentioned in previous sections any player can engage another player at any time in any place.
    It even says so in CCPS official NP FAQ.

    Quote:
    They don't care about the fact that the mining mechanic encourages players to AFK to not die of boredom. The "AFKness", "non-tankiness" or whatnot of their victims is just an excuse to let their inner asshats take control without risk of getting their ass kicked like in RL.
    We know it's boring, which is why we don't do it unless we have to and even then we do it in fleets because fleet chat is always amusing, as an added bonus it makes solo miners cry.

    Quote:
    A lot of people in here seem to forget the definition of "griefing", since EvE has its own meaning of the term. Nearly every form of player interaction would be banned if the real definition was used and enforced. That shows how much this game lacks content, relying on its playerbase's asshattery to do all the work. Long live the Litter box!

    I suggest you move to another game, a real game, a fun one. As it is, the community is worse than it was when you left, and it won't get better.
    CCP's definition of griefing is the only definition applicable to Eve, as such the commonly accepted definitions don't apply. The reliance on the playerbases asshattery for content is one of CCPs major marketing devices, the limited and mediocre PvE is by design.

    As for your last comment, I suggest you follow your own advice and move to a game that you find to be fun.

    In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

    New Player FAQ

    Feyd's Survival Pack