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Sermon: Jove, their treachery and their fate

Author
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-01-08 17:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Constantin Baracca wrote:
If we cured them when even their own advanced sciences and medicines failed, how could anyone question our faith again?


Quite easily. The fact you're even asking that question says you don't understand why faith is questioned in the first place.

Thinking of a solution that somebody else did not isn't adequate proof of divine inspiration. It's proof of the non-linear nature of technological progress. It's proof of the old truism that sometimes what you need is a fresh perspective. It's proof that just because the Jove may have mastered certain fields of study, they may be no better than us in others, or even slightly worse.

I'm reminded of something we remind newly-graduated capsuleers of all the time. Sure, you will never have the breadth of a senior pilot's abilities. But if you focus on the things your elder has neglected, you will instantly surpass them, and in narrow, focused areas you will match them quickly enough.

So it is with the Jove. I don't know the specifics of how advanced their technology is, but I'd wager that we probably outstrip them in some fields nowadays. I just don't have the faintest idea which ones.

Also, everybody but me seems to know all about this disease they apparently suffer, but I've never heard of a Jovian publicly commenting on any kind of endemic sickness in their society. It seems to be common knowledge that there is a "Jovian Disease" but it's always talked about as if it were a transparent fact, as if the person talking about it were privy to the medical files and government reports of the Jovian Directorate and has any insight at all into their society and whatever dramas are assailing it.

Wherever this amassed public data on the Jove has come from, I'd very much like to read it, because the last time I heard from those creepy translucent bastards, one of them was exploding on a live news stream.

Nothing dispels the mystique and awe of a technologically superior civilization quite like a spectacular and public malfunction.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2014-01-08 17:34:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Constantin Baracca
Stitcher wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
If we cured them when even their own advanced sciences and medicines failed, how could anyone question our faith again?


Quite easily. The fact you're even asking that question says you don't understand why faith is questioned in the first place.

Thinking of a solution that somebody else did not isn't adequate proof of divine inspiration. It's proof of the non-linear nature of technological progress. It's proof of the old truism that sometimes what you need is a fresh perspective. It's proof that just because the Jove may have mastered certain fields of study, they may be no better than us in others, or even slightly worse.

I'm reminded of something we remind newly-graduated capsuleers of all the time. Sure, you will never have the breadth of a senior pilot's abilities. But if you focus on the things your elder has neglected, you will instantly surpass them, and in narrow, focused areas you will match them quickly enough.

So it is with the Jove. I don't know the specifics of how advanced their technology is, but I'd wager that we probably outstrip them in some fields nowadays. I just don't have the faintest idea which ones.

Also, everybody but me seems to know all about this disease they apparently suffer, but I've never heard of a Jovian publicly commenting on any kind of endemic sickness in their society. It seems to be common knowledge that there is a "Jovian Disease" but it's always talked about as if it were a transparent fact, as if the person talking about it were privy to the medical files and government reports of the Jovian Directorate and has any insight at all into their society and whatever dramas are assailing it.

Wherever this amassed public data on the Jove has come from, I'd very much like to read it, because the last time I heard from those creepy translucent bastards, one of them was exploding on a live news stream.


There are a few data files on it floating around. I've had a look at a few of the pre-attack memos and they were aware enough of it then. Those things are fairly common knowledge now, but in summation, it's a mental disease of some kind. I've heard it described as genetic, but that seems more based around it presenting via their genetic roulette. The knowledge of the disease directly predated the attack, as the Amarrians at the time thought it would be an ample time to gain some new slaves and take the technology. They're fairly sad documents. One of the reasons I have faith is because you always see the universe balancing out the hubris in people and punishing their pride. Once you read some of those documents, you understand the failure against the Jove and the subsequent revolution of the Matari. We deserved it.

Anyway, from what the documents I've read suggest, a few of the prominent Jovians we were dealing with disappeared. It was later discovered they were entering into a rather deep depression. I'm not sure whether that leads directly to death or simply complicates things. Obviously, the Jovians weren't exactly tripping over themselves to provide us with the details so we could help. Even the details we had at the time lit up our greedy little eyes.

One thing I've discovered via other sources is that the disease has been around for a long time, and the Jove essentially did everything in their power to solve it. They failed. Which doesn't make much sense if you don't believe in divine punishment, come to think of it. It essentially presents in every Jovian at some point and has for a very, very long time. It also doesn't seem to affect anyone else, so whatever it is it doesn't seem communicable to other humans. Then again, I don't even know if one has been in breathing distance of us for any extended period of time while infected for us to know.

I should point out that although they themselves think it is related to their attempts at genetic alteration, the disease just showed up around that time. It may not even really be linked to their genetics. I'm not a doctor, just a cleric, so I don't know if there's any more specific research floating around. I only know the basics you can find out by looking and a bit about what we knew before we attempted to conquer them.

Either way, I've always thought that the best way to preach the existence of God is through the practical. I suppose that if you don't follow the Word, you probably think the Lord tends to reach down with his mighty silver quill and writes his will across the stars. The universe doesn't work that way, but some people will ignore even His most obvious signs until they run into a wall. That's sort of the element of human nature we have to rise above. It's too easy to think we are somehow the highest consciousness in all of reality, even though we know how limited our perspective is in the greater body of the universe. The Jove were tested for their hubris, the Amarr are being tested for their hubris, and we will all come upon the reckoning of our decisions someday. It is the inescapable gravity of justice.

That doesn't mean that the Jove will survive their humility, and I don't think people should be left to suffer in their judgments alone. We are meant to all be teachers to the wayward. As always, a failure of a single man is the failure of his community, and the failure of an empire shouldn't doom them beyond help. I feel, in a way, it's part of what we owe to the universe, as a demonstration for how the Lord's people should behave. Failing to deal with our own pride, especially the sins of our forefathers, is simply not acceptable, but I know we will not overcome our failings by ourselves. There is no reason to expect the Jove to do so as well, nor is there a reason why we, as a cluster, shouldn't do our best to help them.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-01-08 17:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Constantin Baracca wrote:
some people will ignore even His most obvious signs until they run into a wall.


I think a more extant problem is that some people will latch onto any scrap of serendipity they can find and declare it to be one of "His" signs while ignoring the dozens of other perfectly reasonable interpretations and implications. A phenomenon technically known as "confirmation bias".

I'm perfectly aware of what the Jovian Disease is purported to be, by the way. My point is however that the sum total of our actual reliable data on it is nil. Nada. Squat. There's more substance in a cubic kilometer of hard vacuum than there is in the entirety of our information about this ailment.

This is a disease about which we know effectively nothing. Any attempts to "cure" it from our current situation would be akin to sitting a Mind Clash expert blindfolded in a closed room awash with white noise, and ordering him to commentate a Splinterz match that's taking place in another star system.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2014-01-08 18:35:56 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
some people will ignore even His most obvious signs until they run into a wall.


I think a more extant problem is that some people will latch onto any scrap of serendipity they can find and declare it to be one of "His" signs while ignoring the dozens of other perfectly reasonable interpretations and implications. A phenomenon technically known as "confirmation bias".

I'm perfectly aware of what the Jovian Disease is purported to be, by the way. My point is however that the sum total of our actual reliable data on it is nil. Nada. Squat. There's more substance in a cubic kilometer of hard vacuum than there is in the entirety of our information about this ailment.

This is a disease about which we know effectively nothing. Any attempts to "cure" it from our current situation would be akin to sitting a Mind Clash expert blindfolded in a closed room awash with white noise, and ordering him to commentate a Splinterz match that's taking place in another star system.


I think both of your points have a similar problem. You seem so focused on the conclusion that you've despaired at the distance.

In the case of faith, the idea that there is no God assumes facts that aren't in any better evidence than there not being one; we simply don't have the perspective to deal with it directly. Unfortunately, if you've never questioned more than what you can perceive with your senses and tried to understand the universe as a greater whole, along with our relatively insignificant sliver of it we can inhabit and see, it probably does seem like we're the kings of our particular anthill. It's easy to say that there isn't anything more, that something can't watch us from outside our view the way we look at a painting, because we can't see anything else. The quick answer is that it simply isn't there, even though our science will tell you that the part of the universe we can't experience vastly overshadows the bit we can apply our somewhat limited logic to. The quick answer is that the part of the universe we can't see isn't important, it obviously can't affect us if we can't affect it. There's a fallacy to that.

Unfortunately, explaining God to people who don't have any background in asking those kinds of questions is like explaining a warp drive to someone who knows nothing about physics. You can do it, but it takes a very, very long time and not everyone has the patience and concentration to learn the theoretical knowledge if it doesn't give them the instantaneous results people seem to expect.

On that note, to help the Jove, we need to start with our lack of knowledge. That means convincing the Jove some of us do really intend to help for no reason other than simple altruism and having them give us what they know, or at least allowing us to conduct our own research. That's simply part of finding a cure. Step one has to be convincing the victim that you really want to help. So we'll need to find a better way to contact them.

As of right now, most people probably do feel the suffering of another empire that has little trust for us in a shut-off part of the cluster isn't an immediate concern of ours. It does seem so far off, and a cure so difficult to find. To save an entire empire of people, though, I'd say is worth our combined efforts. We just don't usually ask with a combined voice. Perhaps if we did, we could at least do our best to try. They're obviously not solving the problem themselves; they simply have no reason to think we'd do any better at it for the same reason you do. What do we know about them and their condition? How could we ever hope to help them?

So the first step is to teach the most advanced scientists in the cluster to have a little faith. Since bad things have happened to them on our account, they have every evidence-based reason to think we're all terrifying creatures that wish them death so we can steal their technology. Maybe we can try to prove that just because you can't always see that we're trying to be good people doesn't always mean it's always the case that we are evil. We are capable of great good, so much more than we're doing right now. I certainly believe we can do better even if we largely live down to our stereotypes.

We should at least try. There's no better place to start than the beginning. We can do it between us. Put together a cooperative, say we are going to try to research the Jovian disease and find a cure, and find a way to ask what we can do for the information. Until the Jove are all dead to the man, woman, and child, there is every reason to keep trying.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#45 - 2014-01-08 20:12:12 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Nauplius wrote:


As the treachery of Vak'Atioth recedes further and further into history, it becomes all the more necessary to rekindle the flames of hatred in our hearts against the Jove. The dead of Vak'Atioth call out from Paradise for revenge; we fail in the eyes of a holy God each passing year we fail to give it to them.


What a poor attempt at revisionist history.

Let's recall that it was an Amarr war fleet that was sent to invade the peaceful Jove with the intent of subjugating and enslaving them, just as you did with my ancestors. The only treachery perpetrated at Vak'Atioth was by the hyper-aggressive, war mongering Amarr. The Jove merely defended themselves against your unprovoked aggression. Be grateful that they merely closed themselves off from the rest of the cluster after your attack rather than counter-attacking. Had they done so with their vastly superior technology it's probable that you and your evil empire wouldn't exist today.


This. Vak'atioth was not treachery. It was your people (and mine, formerly) hearing about a new race that they had not heard of before, and going "That! We can enslave That!"

It did not work out in their favor.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#46 - 2014-01-09 00:12:23 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
...


While these words are not without any value, I would question any Scriptural exegesis that reads "Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given" as "Go forth, heal other people's weird diseases."

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2014-01-09 00:58:31 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
...


While these words are not without any value, I would question any Scriptural exegesis that reads "Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given" as "Go forth, heal other people's weird diseases."



It is a common misconception that exegesis means "irrespective of context." You have to read all of the texts to understand what is being said. If God had literally meant to simply go out and kill everyone that doesn't agree with us, not only would he have not mentioned evangelism, but he would also have allowed us to conquer the Jove. Sometimes, we need object lessons to remind us that the Reclamation isn't piracy by another name, as we very well made it. Sometimes, to have a people join you in the faith, you have to turn your swords to plowshares.

Conquest certainly did not turn the Matari completely to the faith, but understanding certainly brought the Khanid to us bloodlessly. We learned, perhaps too late, that our most important weapons are not our lasers and chains, but the Word itself. Perhaps it is not possible to bring the Jove into the fold without killing them, but it may be possible to bring the Jove into the faith by proving that it stands on its own merits.

I think showing that we can come together to help them would be much more effective, in that regard, than shooting them. While we may impress them with the Word, they have less reason to be impressed by our guns.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

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