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[GRD] Gradient leaving Electus Matari
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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2014-01-20 03:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaven Lok'ri
Ava Starfire wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
That is a possibility.

I cannot comment on any possible contingency plans of Gradient in the case of total breakdown of the Republic, obviously. Suffice to say that as the corporation is a multi-tribal, even multi-national, operation in support of the tribal coalition, it would be require a major change, and possible directions of change are probably not even predictable in the current stable state.

But this is starting to be quite beside the point of this thread.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Diplomat
Gradient


You'll still shoot PIE though, right?


Given that we will still shoot Gradient, regardless of what alliance they end up part of, I somehow expect they will shoot back.

There is just a bit too much blood between us at this point for anyone to expect differently.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family
Del Vikus
Sundered Core
#42 - 2014-01-20 15:53:27 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:


I guess the better question is, what about groups not involved in the warzone fighting?


We are at this time adopting the principles of the Electus Matari as the basis for our Crimes List, which will necessarily influence our Rules of Engagement. These include, but are not limited to, being a member of the Amarr militia.

These principles are still public, but in brief, are:

Quote:

Political Crimes

-- Being a member of the Amarr Militia
-- Slavery: owning slaves, or obtaining and trading them for the purpose of someone owning them.
-- Crimes Against the Tribes
-- Support of Political Enemies

Capsuleer Crimes

-- Piracy
-- Unprovoked Wars
-- Claiming of Republic space
-- Petty Crimes
-- Support of Criminals
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2014-01-20 19:49:42 UTC
Your definition of your political crimes section is rather... vague, if I may say so.

- Crimes against the Tribes. What does that mean exactly ?
- Support of political enemies: same ?

What is the policy for past and present, or more precisely, does that policy recognize a difference between past and present, and how if so ?
Del Vikus
Sundered Core
#44 - 2014-01-20 21:29:06 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Your definition of your political crimes section is rather... vague, if I may say so.

- Crimes against the Tribes. What does that mean exactly ?
- Support of political enemies: same ?

What is the policy for past and present, or more precisely, does that policy recognize a difference between past and present, and how if so ?


They're vague because I didn't post them in their entirety. Mostly because the language reflects the laws of the Electus Matari, and not Gradient. My brevity was thus motivated by caution: while we continue to be inspired by EM, we are not *in* it anymore. But I assure you -- and any of our allies will confirm this -- we do take these concepts seriously, and debate them in no small detail.

As for the "policy for past and present" -- yes, we do make reasonable allowances for crimes committed in the past, assuming a change of behaviour in the present. Many among our ranks have committed crimes that are in violation of our laws, but in the interim have made amends. We do not have a standardized timeline for when the crime "elapses". That is up to the judgment of the diplomats, and of our leaders.

There are some crimes that cannot be forgiven, though, in past or present. An active dedication to the slave trade, even if years past, is unlikely to be overlooked by our leaders, short of a public apology, a disavowal of the principles of slavery and the society that gave rise to them, and a dedication of one's life to the improvement of those who have been enslaved. And that's just to start.
Matar Ronin
#45 - 2014-01-21 08:20:34 UTC
Best of luck and good hunting! Our Alliance will make diplomatic contact with you when you are clear of your current Alliance. We have recently decided to reach out to others working & fighting for the best interest of the Matari people and the Minmatar Republic, as we feel duty and honor bound to do ourselves.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2014-01-21 20:33:42 UTC
Del Vikus wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Your definition of your political crimes section is rather... vague, if I may say so.

- Crimes against the Tribes. What does that mean exactly ?
- Support of political enemies: same ?

What is the policy for past and present, or more precisely, does that policy recognize a difference between past and present, and how if so ?


They're vague because I didn't post them in their entirety. Mostly because the language reflects the laws of the Electus Matari, and not Gradient. My brevity was thus motivated by caution: while we continue to be inspired by EM, we are not *in* it anymore. But I assure you -- and any of our allies will confirm this -- we do take these concepts seriously, and debate them in no small detail.

As for the "policy for past and present" -- yes, we do make reasonable allowances for crimes committed in the past, assuming a change of behaviour in the present. Many among our ranks have committed crimes that are in violation of our laws, but in the interim have made amends. We do not have a standardized timeline for when the crime "elapses". That is up to the judgment of the diplomats, and of our leaders.

There are some crimes that cannot be forgiven, though, in past or present. An active dedication to the slave trade, even if years past, is unlikely to be overlooked by our leaders, short of a public apology, a disavowal of the principles of slavery and the society that gave rise to them, and a dedication of one's life to the improvement of those who have been enslaved. And that's just to start.


I see... So the best course of action is to ask your diplomats ? Am I red to you ?
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#47 - 2014-01-22 16:37:48 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:

I see... So the best course of action is to ask your diplomats ? Am I red to you ?


Do you want to be?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2014-01-22 17:09:53 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:

I see... So the best course of action is to ask your diplomats ? Am I red to you ?


Do you want to be?


If she'd wanted to be, I'm sure she'd have just shot you somewhere rather than ask.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2014-01-22 19:57:57 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:

I see... So the best course of action is to ask your diplomats ? Am I red to you ?


Do you want to be?


You sound almost like it would make you happy.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#50 - 2014-01-23 07:52:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
Del Vikus wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:


I guess the better question is, what about groups not involved in the warzone fighting?


We are at this time adopting the principles of the Electus Matari as the basis for our Crimes List, which will necessarily influence our Rules of Engagement. These include, but are not limited to, being a member of the Amarr militia.

These principles are still public, but in brief, are:

Quote:

Political Crimes

-- Being a member of the Amarr Militia
-- Slavery: owning slaves, or obtaining and trading them for the purpose of someone owning them.
-- Crimes Against the Tribes
-- Support of Political Enemies

Capsuleer Crimes

-- Piracy
-- Unprovoked Wars
-- Claiming of Republic space
-- Petty Crimes
-- Support of Criminals



I'm mostly curious. You haven't really defined "crimes against the Tribes", or "support of political enemies" at all. Or is this a case of "vague so it can mean anything it needs to mean"? It won't really affect me either way, but it caught my eye. Broadly, the entire State could be considered "guilty" of supporting Amarrian interests through the current political alliances, thus fitting both criteria, despite the fact that slavery is illegal within its borders. Or are you and yours being somewhat more selective in such matters?

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Del Vikus
Sundered Core
#51 - 2014-01-23 18:45:52 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:

I'm mostly curious. You haven't really defined "crimes against the Tribes", or "support of political enemies" at all. Or is this a case of "vague so it can mean anything it needs to mean"? It won't really affect me either way, but it caught my eye. Broadly, the entire State could be considered "guilty" of supporting Amarrian interests through the current political alliances, thus fitting both criteria, despite the fact that slavery is illegal within its borders. Or are you and yours being somewhat more selective in such matters?


It is not "vague so it can mean anything it needs to mean" -- it is vague so that the multiplicity of crimes against the Tribes can be accounted for without the restrictions of a legal tome. But for some examples, you could include:

-- Active military action against Tribal assets
-- Theft of Tribal property
-- Political collusion against Tribal interests (economic sanctions, trade embargoes, bribery, blackmail, extortion)
-- Espionage
-- Agent work taken against Tribal interests

Gradient does not consider the Caldari State "guilty" of Support of Political Criminals in principle. That being said, the Political situation differs somewhat from the Military one: State Militia targets are considered hostile if they are operating in Republic space, and any State pilot known to work against Republic or Tribal interests will be summarily set red. We do consider the State to be a Government worthy of ongoing diplomatic relations, however, and we proudly count many Pilots of State origin in our ranks. As ever, State action against the crime of slavery is encouraged and appreciated.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#52 - 2014-01-24 07:30:10 UTC
Del Vikus wrote:
Saya Ishikari wrote:

I'm mostly curious. You haven't really defined "crimes against the Tribes", or "support of political enemies" at all. Or is this a case of "vague so it can mean anything it needs to mean"? It won't really affect me either way, but it caught my eye. Broadly, the entire State could be considered "guilty" of supporting Amarrian interests through the current political alliances, thus fitting both criteria, despite the fact that slavery is illegal within its borders. Or are you and yours being somewhat more selective in such matters?


It is not "vague so it can mean anything it needs to mean" -- it is vague so that the multiplicity of crimes against the Tribes can be accounted for without the restrictions of a legal tome. But for some examples, you could include:

-- Active military action against Tribal assets
-- Theft of Tribal property
-- Political collusion against Tribal interests (economic sanctions, trade embargoes, bribery, blackmail, extortion)
-- Espionage
-- Agent work taken against Tribal interests

Gradient does not consider the Caldari State "guilty" of Support of Political Criminals in principle. That being said, the Political situation differs somewhat from the Military one: State Militia targets are considered hostile if they are operating in Republic space, and any State pilot known to work against Republic or Tribal interests will be summarily set red. We do consider the State to be a Government worthy of ongoing diplomatic relations, however, and we proudly count many Pilots of State origin in our ranks. As ever, State action against the crime of slavery is encouraged and appreciated.

Ah. That makes a bit more sense. And i trust you understand that vague language, no matter the reason, works as a blanket justification more often than not. Hence, my query. Thank you for clarifying.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#53 - 2014-01-25 20:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
For inquiries about specific standings, feel free to send me evemail.

As to the general questions: our grounds for setting standings are not definitions or laws. You cannot read any text and say that because your qualify or not for a particular standing based on that text, we can or cannot set you this or that.

We set standings, in the end, based on a case-by-case judgment about what best benefits the Republic. Yes, that is a blanket statement that allows us to red anyone we feel needs redding, without them able to sue us about it.

If you know us, you know we will not use that blanket statement to do whatever we damned please. If you don't know us, any amount of detailed rules and definitions will not convince you of our integrity.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Diplomat
Gradient
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#54 - 2014-01-26 00:16:30 UTC
Much clearer and appreciated.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Jessica Ovarde
Verdant Inquiries
#55 - 2014-01-26 20:55:41 UTC
I'd just like to say that even if you're no longer going to be a member corporation of Electus Matari your recent Rorqual and associated goods donation was much appreciated.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#56 - 2014-01-26 20:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Hey look, someone's so proud of actually having done something bigger than kill a frigate that they take every even remotely related thread to brag about it.

Not that I actually have any idea what you are talking about, just hazarding a guess based on context. If someone actually donated you a ship, I apologize profusely and point out that there's no need to thank me, as I don't have the faintest clue about the matter.

Welcome to IGS!

Else
Jessica Ovarde
Verdant Inquiries
#57 - 2014-01-26 21:06:09 UTC
I don't believe I've undocked recently but I'll take the credit I guess.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2014-01-29 07:50:54 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Your definition of your political crimes section is rather... vague, if I may say so.

- Crimes against the Tribes. What does that mean exactly ?
- Support of political enemies: same ?

What is the policy for past and present, or more precisely, does that policy recognize a difference between past and present, and how if so ?


Careful now.

Questioning the nature of political crimes may itself be a political crime.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#59 - 2014-01-29 08:09:11 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:


Careful now.

Questioning the nature of political crimes may itself be a political crime.


You would know all about that as questioning the orthodoxy in your nation is a crime, yes?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#60 - 2014-01-29 17:34:12 UTC
Anabella, I believe Blake was not attempting to be sarcastic; his warning might have been entirely genuine.

But no; words on IGS alone are not enough for us to red anyone.

Else