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Why nullsec sucks for anyone not in a giant corp/alliance - the perfect example

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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#61 - 2011-11-08 05:56:16 UTC
Spymaster Alpha wrote:
Ok, so being my adventurous self I decided it was high time to get my ass out of highsec and learn about null. I figured a decent way to start with this would be to set up some ninja PI.

So, I get my crane, and fit it all nice and sexy cloaky like, and load up a bunch of command centers. I set a course for the Outer Ring (all NPC nullsec all the way), autopilot to the edge of highsec, and then start my trip through the deep dark.

I get 2 jumps in. I'm cloaked. I warp to 0 on the next gate. I somehow end up being pulled OFF the gate and into a bubble, with a bunch of litter that decloaks me. Locked and killed within 15 seconds.

So what did I do wrong? How is it even possible to avoid this? Manually warping to 0 in a cloaked ship, and there was absolutely NOTHING I could do to avoid this. This, obviously, is why anyone who doesn't have a massive corp to back them up doesn't like nullsec. It's impossible to go anywhere without getting shitkicked, even if you do everything right.

It seemed, from the little I saw, that nearly every gate had a bubble on it. So how does anyone get anywhere?




Mistake 1: You used the wrong gates. Probably hit a gank magnet. Don't you know there are people waiting there..... ok they are playing other games waiting for a text or call to go up on audio... all day for someone to come along just to gank them for the all important killboard.
Mistake 2: You used gates. Why oh why are people, especially independent ones, so darned hooked on gates? Just because there are there, you don't have to use them. With patience you can get very far with wormholes. A measly class 3 system can get you from high sec to 0.0 and sometimes a system will have a WH to both kinds of space at the same time. If you can take a few days or up to a week to get where you want to go, don't even bother with these damned gates. Gates were designed with only one thing in mind: a place for people who can't play to hang out and get kills.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2011-11-08 10:30:15 UTC
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2011-11-08 14:54:28 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
I keep telling people, the only reason null sec denizens are crying about it being lonely out there is because they want new VICTIMS. IF you think those people are going to let you be, and make something of yourself (besides a target), I've got a bridge in San Francisco for sale. It's orange.

It's the same reason they're down on mining in high sec. They want you out in null and low so they can mine YOU.

You may notice most of these tips involve "friends", preset way points or multiple ships and jump clones. Ask them what you do once you get past the sling bubble...now that I'm here...just don't tell them where "here" is or they'll all be paying you a visit with their killboards in mind.


You are hilariously mad about nullsec. Please tell us more.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Spymaster Alpha
EveTech Enterprises
#64 - 2011-11-13 00:18:03 UTC
Alright, new story. So, I follow everyone's advice. I grab myself a cov ops, and at every gate along my 11-jump route I create a "safe" warp-to point to avoid bubbles. I spend a couple hours doing this.

So then I go back, grab a blockade runner. I jump into null, and start my journey through. I use my bookmarks to avoid bubbles. All well and good, I get about 3 jumps in. I go through a gate, there's a bunch of people on the other side. I hit warp to my next safe bookmark, hit cloak right away. Someone IMMEDIATELY pops a bubble, and decloaks me. Locked and podded within a minute.

So I followed your advice, I made my safe bookmarks, didn't help me. What's the solution to this one?

On another note, can people put bubbles close enough to gates that you land in it as soon as you come through? How do you avoid this?
Adunh Slavy
#65 - 2011-11-13 00:44:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
Spymaster Alpha wrote:
So what did I do wrong? How is it even possible to avoid this? Manually warping to 0 in a cloaked ship, and there was absolutely NOTHING I could do to avoid this. This, obviously, is why anyone who doesn't have a massive corp to back them up doesn't like nullsec. It's impossible to go anywhere without getting shitkicked, even if you do everything right.

It seemed, from the little I saw, that nearly every gate had a bubble on it. So how does anyone get anywhere?



Let me preface my response with, I loathe gates, they're a crappy mechanic.

As for what you did wrong, you warped to a gate with out scouting.

What you should do is, once you jump, warp to something, cloaked of course, at some distance other than zero. On your way, look and see if there is something within 15 AU of your out gate. Then warp to that thing. Then, use your on board scanner, the directional scanner that is, to see if there are ships and bubbles there or not. If not warp to the gate and jump.

If there is something there, then you need to try and figure out where the bubble might be. If there are only two gates in the system, then you can pretty much assume that the bubble is inline with the other gate.

The way bubbles work is that, if you are "in-line" with them, then they will pull your ship to them, pulling you long or short of the place you would have landed other wise. What you want to do is get out of that path, so that the bubble won't be able to pull you into it.

Sometimes bubbles are at the thing (planet/moon/star) that is close by, that people use to scout. Sometimes there is a bubble in line with that thing too, so do be careful.

Your ultimate goal is to be out-of-line with the bubble(s).

One thing of note, if you are solo and can't scout ahead, if you find your self in a system where there are ships and bubbles on the out-gate, even if you can line up to not get pulled to a bubble, you can almost guarantee that they have a HIC or have bubbles on the other side of the gate as well.

Your best bet to avoid an active gate camp in that case is make an odd safe spot, stay cloaked and start up a conversation about the questionable parentage of gate campers.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Adunh Slavy
#66 - 2011-11-13 00:49:25 UTC
Spymaster Alpha wrote:

So I followed your advice, I made my safe bookmarks, didn't help me. What's the solution to this one?

On another note, can people put bubbles close enough to gates that you land in it as soon as you come through? How do you avoid this?



There isn't a solution to that one when you're solo. And yes, there can be so many bubbles aroudn a gate, or a HIC or few sitting around and then you're fooked. Welcome to lame PVP.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Justin Credulent
Luv You Long Time
#67 - 2011-11-13 00:52:38 UTC
Spymaster Alpha wrote:
Ok, so being my adventurous self I decided it was high time to get my ass out of highsec and learn about null. I figured a decent way to start with this would be to set up some ninja PI.

So, I get my crane, and fit it all nice and sexy cloaky like, and load up a bunch of command centers. I set a course for the Outer Ring (all NPC nullsec all the way), autopilot to the edge of highsec, and then start my trip through the deep dark.

I get 2 jumps in. I'm cloaked. I warp to 0 on the next gate. I somehow end up being pulled OFF the gate and into a bubble, with a bunch of litter that decloaks me. Locked and killed within 15 seconds.

So what did I do wrong? How is it even possible to avoid this? Manually warping to 0 in a cloaked ship, and there was absolutely NOTHING I could do to avoid this. This, obviously, is why anyone who doesn't have a massive corp to back them up doesn't like nullsec. It's impossible to go anywhere without getting shitkicked, even if you do everything right.

It seemed, from the little I saw, that nearly every gate had a bubble on it. So how does anyone get anywhere?


Pretty much this.

What most people new to null-sec don't realize is that any system they jump in is someone else's back yard. Players own those systems. You're on their turf, and they are more than justified popping you.

The reason nobody goes to null-sec is exactly that - every system is owned by somebody, and if you want to play there, you have to join them and dedicate 20 hours per week to "mandatory operations" as well as pay xx millions a week in rental fees and bla bla bla. Nobody wants to deal with that, and the people who do are already doing so. Everyone else is steering clear.

The answer isn't to f*ck up hi-sec and force everyone into null-sec (really, most of us would just cancel our subs). The answer is to fix null-sec. That's where the problem is, after all - null-sec CAREBEAR Alliances forming "coalitions" to maintain peace.

If you're in a Corp, null-sec is the safest place EVER - nothing but bots and coalitions. Otherwise, you'll get bubbled and popped by the dogs who feed on the scraps.

Null-Sec needs to HTFU and stop crying to CCP. If null-sec wants PvP, they need to stop being carebears and start fighting eachother - after years of bot-mining, they have the ships!
John Caesse
Just Post Inc.
#68 - 2011-11-13 01:07:59 UTC
ITT: Helpful advice from people who know how to live in nullsec, and complaining rants from those who don't
Justin Credulent
Luv You Long Time
#69 - 2011-11-13 01:15:58 UTC
Witty one liners: Flavor of the decade.

Null-Sec needs to HTFU and stop crying to CCP. If null-sec wants PvP, they need to stop being carebears and start fighting eachother - after years of bot-mining, they have the ships!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#70 - 2011-11-13 01:16:51 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Spymaster Alpha wrote:

So I followed your advice, I made my safe bookmarks, didn't help me. What's the solution to this one?

On another note, can people put bubbles close enough to gates that you land in it as soon as you come through? How do you avoid this?



There isn't a solution to that one when you're solo. And yes, there can be so many bubbles aroudn a gate, or a HIC or few sitting around and then you're fooked. Welcome to lame PVP.



The situation you found yourself in is tricky, but not inescapable as this last poster seems to think.

Okay, they were waiting for you on the other side of the gate. Usually this situation has one of two things on the other side.

1: A bubble that is already up, whether anchored, a hictor, or a dictor.
2: No bubble, but they have a dictor or hictor waiting to pop one the moment you make your move along with interceptors waiting to zoom directly at you to decloak you.

In either case I usually do not simply engage warp or try and head directly at the gate I'm trying to get to. In the case where you hit warp and they pop a bubble the moment you appear/recloak, the bubble causes your ship to stop trying to get into warp and lose speed. You get snagged while you try to hastily click to get moving again.

Instead I take a moment, zoom out a bit, and look at my position in relation to the gate, the enemy, and nearby celestial objects. I will then wait for the most opportune moment to head toward a celestial object that takes me at an oblique angle away from their fast decloaking frigates. You need to be fast double clicking to get moving, hitting MWD, and cloaking again in less than a second to have much of a chance.

If you have a bit of luck, your MWD burst will take you at an angle away from the trajectory of the in bound decloakers. Hopefully you have picked a celestial that is on the side of the bubble you happen to be closest to. As soon as you clear the bubble, spam warp.

Alternatively, you can simply use the MWD burst/cloak trick to try and get back to the gate. Sometimes this is the best approach, but bear in mind that a wise camper will have a bubble and decloakers in reserve waiting to jump through with you to try and snag you on the other side.

Also, always take your time. You have 60 seconds. Burn some of it up making an informed choice. Keep in mind if you decide to run back to the gate it needs to be AFTER your 30 second (soon to be 20 second) session change has gone by... otherwise you will simply bounce off the gate, decloaked, vulnerable, and soon to be dead.

With practice you can become adept at avoided this type of camp as well, but it does take nerves of steel.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
URDEAD2ME
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#71 - 2011-11-13 01:24:15 UTC
warp to planet near the gate or a belt point in direction of gate and use the scanner , normaly pull bubbles are in line with gates so from a planet near the gate , if you warp to the gate the bubble shouldnt be in alignment.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#72 - 2011-11-13 01:31:02 UTC
Quote:
The reason nobody goes to null-sec is exactly that - every system is owned by somebody, and if you want to play there, you have to join them and dedicate 20 hours per week to "mandatory operations" as well as pay xx millions a week in rental fees and bla bla bla. Nobody wants to deal with that, and the people who do are already doing so. Everyone else is steering clear.


While you are correct in that when you travel in null sec you are likely trespassing on someone's territory, the picture you paint of null sec life is pretty skewed.

While some alliances occasionally call mandatory ops for their members, many do not. The exception being if their space is under heavy threat, and even then you'd be hard pressed to find any that wouldn't understand if you couldn't be there.

20 hours a week participation demanded from renters? Where please? You'd be hard pressed to find a corp that demanded 20 hours a week from their core members, let alone renters.

You need to realize that almost every person in null started out earning a living in high sec, just like you... and if you went to null today and joined a corp out there, at that moment you will suddenly become the object of mistrust and fear from the people who think just like you currently do... no matter how you choose to behave.

As a general rule, generalities are bad. Smile

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#73 - 2011-11-13 01:35:59 UTC
This is a typical reaction. People go out to null sec solo, don't do their home work or try to figure out some pretty simple stuff *(like don't warp to a null gate if ANY unfriendlies are about) get killed, and then come to the conclusion that the problem is with null sec lol.

You can look at any "what will make people go to null sec" threadnaught and see the same thing: people will go to null sec if it's easier. Well sry, null sec requires effort, that's what makes it special. High Sec allows people to play this mmo solo, null sec demands you make friends. I don't see any reason that should change really.
Justin Credulent
Luv You Long Time
#74 - 2011-11-13 01:41:51 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
The reason nobody goes to null-sec is exactly that - every system is owned by somebody, and if you want to play there, you have to join them and dedicate 20 hours per week to "mandatory operations" as well as pay xx millions a week in rental fees and bla bla bla. Nobody wants to deal with that, and the people who do are already doing so. Everyone else is steering clear.


While you are correct in that when you travel in null sec you are likely trespassing on someone's territory, the picture you paint of null sec life is pretty skewed.


Except for the fact that it's based on my own experiences as a hi-sec "carebear" who's tried, numerous times, to "break through to the other side" over the past year. So the perspective I bring is in fact valid and has been the case for at least 1, and i suspect many dozens more, people.

Quote:
20 hours a week participation demanded from renters? Where please? You'd be hard pressed to find a corp that demanded 20 hours a week from their core members, let alone renters.


Did I say that renters require time minimums? No I didn't, thanks. I said renters require xx amount of ISK per week. And why the hell am I gonna pay them? Just to... what? Mine Cornite? lulz

But in regards to my "20 hours a week claim": please learn what hyperbole is.

Null-Sec needs to HTFU and stop crying to CCP. If null-sec wants PvP, they need to stop being carebears and start fighting eachother - after years of bot-mining, they have the ships!
Justin Credulent
Luv You Long Time
#75 - 2011-11-13 01:44:03 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
You can look at any "what will make people go to null sec" threadnaught and see the same thing: people will go to null sec if it's easier. Well sry, null sec requires effort, that's what makes it special. High Sec allows people to play this mmo solo, null sec demands you make friends. I don't see any reason that should change really.


So I guess you're one of the "you're not entitled to play in null-sec, you have to earn it" crowd. Please reason with the "we need to force newbies to play null-sec so we have risk-free PvP" crowd, will ya?

Null-Sec needs to HTFU and stop crying to CCP. If null-sec wants PvP, they need to stop being carebears and start fighting eachother - after years of bot-mining, they have the ships!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#76 - 2011-11-13 02:01:24 UTC
Justin Credulent wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
The reason nobody goes to null-sec is exactly that - every system is owned by somebody, and if you want to play there, you have to join them and dedicate 20 hours per week to "mandatory operations" as well as pay xx millions a week in rental fees and bla bla bla. Nobody wants to deal with that, and the people who do are already doing so. Everyone else is steering clear.


While you are correct in that when you travel in null sec you are likely trespassing on someone's territory, the picture you paint of null sec life is pretty skewed.


Except for the fact that it's based on my own experiences as a hi-sec "carebear" who's tried, numerous times, to "break through to the other side" over the past year. So the perspective I bring is in fact valid and has been the case for at least 1, and i suspect many dozens more, people.

Quote:
20 hours a week participation demanded from renters? Where please? You'd be hard pressed to find a corp that demanded 20 hours a week from their core members, let alone renters.


Did I say that renters require time minimums? No I didn't, thanks. I said renters require xx amount of ISK per week. And why the hell am I gonna pay them? Just to... what? Mine Cornite? lulz

But in regards to my "20 hours a week claim": please learn what hyperbole is.


Actually, if you look at what you typed, you DID say exactly that. If that's not what you meant, please learn how to avoid run on sentences. Blink

I'm sure those reflect to some degree your actual experiences. Your doing it wrong.

For one thing you seem to think that your limited exposure to whatever null sec corp you applied to makes you well informed on typical null sec life. You have been misinformed.

While there are corps that to one degree or another display some or all of the traits you describe, to portray all null sec corps in this light is a gross exaggeration.

There are a number of ways to enter into enjoyable null sec corps and have a large degree of autonomy, as long as you remember that you need to have your corp mates back when there is need. If you are unwilling to do this, then High Sec is indeed the place for you.

By the way, what is Cornite? Smile

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Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#77 - 2011-11-13 03:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
tbh ...
1) outer ring where the ORE BPO's are kept is probably one of the worst choices. People have been known to tie that entire region down for long periods of time in order to strangle the market for BPO's coming out of there.
2) no scout? really ?
3) I don't necessarily disagree with you that it should be easier.

If this were a fantasy game, the edge of a "safe zone" to someone's territory would be a hugely long border. We'd be able to cross it and possibly even get all the way across their territory without anyone even knowing.

Unfortunately, eve space isn't anything like REAL space. It's not huge or massive, there's a giant population compared to 5 years ago. And the travel takes place in what basically is a long tunnel, and gives anyone hiding in those tunnels a huge advantage - both surprise and being able to set the stage with warp bubbles etc..

I don't think I even SEE a fix for this presently. (Get rid of gates?? :))

Edit: Actually I sat down had morning coffee after this.

Getting rid of gates would be awesome. Being able to warp from one system to another, instead of through a gate would really redefine the space, the fights, and bring an immensity to the game that's currently lacking. More scouts would be needed - meaning more small ships would need to accompany fleets - fighting would occur more often at celestials - which I think would also be cool. (The fleet is hiding at an asteroid belt is a star wars classic! ;)).

I'm sure there's a great idea in there somewhere ;)

.
Bloody Wench
#78 - 2011-11-13 03:37:48 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
tbh ...
1) outer ring where the ORE BPO's are kept is probably one of the worst choices. People have been known to tie that entire region down for long periods of time in order to strangle the market for BPO's coming out of there.
2) no scout? really ?
3) I don't necessarily disagree with you that it should be easier.

If this were a fantasy game, the edge of a "safe zone" to someone's territory would be a hugely long border. We'd be able to cross it and possibly even get all the way across their territory without anyone even knowing.

Unfortunately, eve space isn't anything like REAL space. It's not huge or massive, there's a giant population compared to 5 years ago. And the travel takes place in what basically is a long tunnel, and gives anyone hiding in those tunnels a huge advantage - both surprise and being able to set the stage with warp bubbles etc..

I don't think I even SEE a fix for this presently. (Get rid of gates?? :))



+1 I thought this was a decent post.

I had an idea years ago regarding the gates system, one in which the gate in your current system would shoot you into the next system at some arbitrary distance from the destination gate in the next system.

So rather than landing 12 kms from the destination gate you might land anywhere in a 1AU sphere around the destination gate. (I used 1AU, but you could have any distance here, 50kms, 1000...whatever)
So that gates function more like an innacurate slingshot into the destination system rather than the precise instrument they are now.

You would still need to get to the gate in your current system to get to your next system and the camps would be there, but it would completely remove the 'blind side' camp. So you could always get into a system safely, but if the system is actively hostile then the chances of you getting out are small.

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Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#79 - 2011-11-13 03:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Bloody Wench wrote:


+1 I thought this was a decent post.

I had an idea years ago regarding the gates system, one in which the gate in your current system would shoot you into the next system at some arbitrary distance from the destination gate in the next system.

So rather than landing 12 kms from the destination gate you might land anywhere in a 1AU sphere around the destination gate. (I used 1AU, but you could have any distance here, 50kms, 1000...whatever)
So that gates function more like an innacurate slingshot into the destination system rather than the precise instrument they are now.

You would still need to get to the gate in your current system to get to your next system and the camps would be there, but it would completely remove the 'blind side' camp. So you could always get into a system safely, but if the system is actively hostile then the chances of you getting out are small.


Funny, i had almost the same idea. Rather than gates just have an area designated within a particular system that would allow travel to the next either via map or some other mechanic, and have it land you randomly in the next system within that same travel area. Groups obviously land together. Scanning always required to find enemies.

Ergo: more scouts/more small ship combat.

In my own defense it's just off the top of my head ;)

But yeah basically the same idea.

.
MaxxOmega
The Roaming Tiger
#80 - 2011-11-13 03:53:10 UTC
Everyone's experience is different at times. I have gone into 0.0 solo many times just to fly around for ***** and giggles and have gone 20-25 jumps from gate to gate and never seen a bubble and gone several jumps to systems completely empty of anyone except for me....

And then there is those "other" times lol... CoolCoolCool