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If your God is so great, why does he need you Amarrians?
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#61 - 2011-11-10 19:33:53 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
The fact I'm a nation pilot has little to nothing to do with the fact that the words coming out of your mouth do not make any sense.


They make perfect sense. Perfection cannot create imperfection - since every aspect of the creation is undertaken by this perfect entity (it would have to be - if the entity is perfect, it would by definition need nothing else to undertake such creation), at no point can imperfection enter into it, for there is no source of imperfection. If that imperfection is sourced from the entity, the entity is itself imperfect.

Perfection cannot create imperfection. Perfection is the utter absence of imperfection and the utter absence of any possibility of imperfection.

I refuse to repeat this blindingly simple truism again. If you cannot grasp it, the failing - and it is a miserable one indeed - lies entirely on your shoulders.


This is the thing I am asking you to show proof of. Why couldn't a perfect being create something imperfect if it chose to do so?

This is of course ignoring the perfectly valid argument that the universe IS perfect according to the dictates of this entity. The Amarr would say that the universe is imperfect and at times awful to serve as a crucible, to forge those living in it into something worthy of that perfect beings attentions.

I guess you could continue to state your statements as fact not requiring proof, though. I've always considered you to be much closer to the Amarr you rage against than you give yourself credit for.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#62 - 2011-11-10 20:47:37 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
This is the thing I am asking you to show proof of. Why couldn't a perfect being create something imperfect if it chose to do so?


Because then it'd be designed exactly as it's creator intended.

Depends how you define "imperfection".

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#63 - 2011-11-10 20:54:51 UTC
The very next paragraph of my post covers that, Cael.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#64 - 2011-11-10 23:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Is a perfect being unable to create anything that's not perfect?

Well, that depends on a lot of things. Among others on the definition of a perfect being.

Of course it's an easy way out - if you want to deny God the possibility to create something imperfect or the possibility of God existing as perfect being - that there are imperfect beings and a perfect being can't by definition create something imperfect. It's always easy to define something in the way you need it to be to get the desired solution.

Doing that you push a definition on 'perfect being' on people and probably one that was never intended by the ones stating God being a perfect being. - I'm very much agreeing with Tiberious sentiments about you, here.

And even if they subscribe to your definition, there are multiple solutions to the aporia you're providing here.

I, though, would start with denying your premise, that is: your definition of a perfect being. My definition of a perfect being and I'd hold that this is true of the majority of the Amarr, isn't the one your're trying to force down our proverbial throats.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#65 - 2011-11-10 23:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
His definition is a total logical fallacy, Nicoletta. Something perfect can do anything, as I said above, or its inability to do something (imperfect) would by any logic become a source of imperfection. His definition is an absurd paradox.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
In theory, if you are perfect, you can obviously create anything, including unperfection


No! You are mentally challenged! For hell's sake, you didn't even get "imperfection" right, and I wrote it, what, seven times in my last post? You would have had to read that post to work out what it was that I was arguing!

Lyn Farel wrote:
or your perfection is only half true and your inability to create unperfect things becomes actually unperfection.


The inability to create imperfection is part of perfection. The ability to create imperfection would itself be imperfection. Now you understand, perhaps, why the idea of a truly perfect entity is logically impossible, but - oh, to hell with it, there's not a chance in hell you understand that.


I surely understand that your definitions are totally wrong and the logic I stated above is barely debatable, so yes, there is no chance "in hell" that I could understand something basically wrong to its roots and coming out from your delusions.

NB : and sorry for the mispelling above, interface issues happens sometimes.
Vallek Arkonnis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2011-11-11 00:47:19 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
In theory, if you are perfect, you can obviously create anything, including unperfection, or your perfection is only half true and your inability to create unperfect things becomes actually unperfection.


This.

Nitpicking spelling doesn't free yourself from the argument, Mr. Ixiris. To a perfect being there is no such thing as "inability". If this perfect being has a limitation then it was never perfect to begin with. However a perfect being can create imperfection but still remain perfect because it was the being's intent to do so.
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#67 - 2011-11-11 02:42:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kithrus
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
In theory, if you are perfect, you can obviously create anything, including unperfection, or your perfection is only half true and your inability to create unperfect things becomes actually unperfection.


This.

Nitpicking spelling doesn't free yourself from the argument, Mr. Ixiris. To a perfect being there is no such thing as "inability". If this perfect being has a limitation then it was never perfect to begin with. However a perfect being can create imperfection but still remain perfect because it was the being's intent to do so.


The sad part I find after laughing with some other CVA'ers and CLRGY around the water cooler is that given 6 months maybe a year in hopes that we as pilots retire or stop posting on the IGS he'll just try again. Some of our older pilots were telling me today that hes been at it for a really long time. The more I read his work the more it sounds like he got through the first, second maybe third year of philosophy then dropped out. Give him time, last we had this debate was on the summit and Andreus was all but boo'ed out with this logic. Now its been five months since then hes back at it.

That being said however I'm grateful for the assistance in the debate thus far but I fear yet again we have been derailed arguing over terminology.

Anyone care to salvage this? Frankly I don't unless someone with an actual train of logic wants to carry on.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Marlakh
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2011-11-11 02:57:41 UTC
Does God need Amarrians? Yes, but so does He need every one of us in this Universe, from the pious priests in the golden temples of Holy Dam Tossad, to the heathen crawling in the filthy gutters of Matar. However, He needs us just as a capsuleer builds a ship because he needs it, but for a purpose only known to the capsuleer. We are here to do His Will, whether each of us realises it or not.

By the above, it could be said that, everything that has transpired against the Empire, from the revolt of my Matari kin, to the Battle of Vak'Atioth, and all the trials endured by my fellow loyalist capsuleers, have been done according to His Will. But amongst all His creations in New Eden, the Amarr Empire and her Faithful are most conscious of His presence, and who strive the hardest to understand His Will and Purpose, and who venerate Him and His Work through prayer and worship.

Surely, as God has made man great amongst all his creations, and He has made the Empire the greatest of all in New Eden, does that not mean the Empire IS God's will made manifest?

As such, I am content to serve the Empire, and in so doing, I am also doing God's Will. It is not my humble station as an Ammatar to understand what it is, merely my pride and joy to serve.

For that, I am content.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#69 - 2011-11-11 10:48:45 UTC
Then, is God able to create a rock so heavy he himself can't lift it ?

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#70 - 2011-11-11 11:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Then, is God able to create a rock so heavy he himself can't lift it ?


Yes he can, because he can create anything.

But he would then lift it up anyway.

You'll probably say that my answer doesn't make much sense. But infinity seldom does when you're trying to comprehend it with a finite brain.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#71 - 2011-11-11 18:21:00 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:

Yes he can, because he can create anything.

But he would then lift it up anyway.

You'll probably say that my answer doesn't make much sense. But infinity seldom does when you're trying to comprehend it with a finite brain.



This all sounds like so much "handwavium" to try and explain and justify a bad plot predicament that you can't logically write yourselves out of. No matter what, the final answer is always, "Our god is perfect, we can't understand what he wants because we're imperfect but, we do what he says anyway because we're his chosen faithful servants and whatever we say and do in his name is justified".

You also failed to answer Captain Rella's question Blake. What is your god commanded you to murder your entire family and then commit suicide? Would you do it?
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#72 - 2011-11-11 18:50:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kithrus
Nick Bete wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:

Yes he can, because he can create anything.

But he would then lift it up anyway.

You'll probably say that my answer doesn't make much sense. But infinity seldom does when you're trying to comprehend it with a finite brain.



This all sounds like so much "handwavium" to try and explain and justify a bad plot predicament that you can't logically write yourselves out of. No matter what, the final answer is always, "Our god is perfect, we can't understand what he wants because we're imperfect but, we do what he says anyway because we're his chosen faithful servants and whatever we say and do in his name is justified".

You also failed to answer Captain Rella's question Blake. What is your god commanded you to murder your entire family and then commit suicide? Would you do it?


There's a huge flaw with that question because God doesn't communicate directly so we have to look at context.

The first step when taking any word claimed to be God's in our time is to look at the source. The next step is to compare the exact messaged given with those of the past and to see where they line up, if previous scripture is very like message or if this message was alluded to ect. Then you look at the ramification of the message and determined if it serves to farther the spirit of the world the scriptures are aiming for.

If after all these things adds up the message is determined as legitimate and the decree from the most High is carried out.

I can tell you though without preforming half of those tests on that circumstance provided in that question it would not happen or the message in question is not of God. So no, I would not follow that order.

When I last was looking into this question earlier I couldn't find what Captain Rella's said so I took on the assumption if the message was from God then I would follow it. Now that I see the question, context according to this question must be applied.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.