These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

EVE is PVE
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ella Echerie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#321 - 2014-04-02 12:11:50 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Ella Echerie wrote:
Pointless troll thread is... um... pointless (and full of trolls).

PvE = ISK faucet.
PvP = ISK sink.

The balance between these rules keeps the power creep in check, and enables the persistent world sandbox.

The conflict driver for PvP should be to gain access to more valuable PvE. Some legitimately argue this is lacking at the moment, but methinks CCP know this and are working towards solutions.

EVE is both PvE and PvP by necessity, anyone who suggests otherwise has tunnel vision.

How is PvP an isk sink?

Ships get bought from people.
Insurance creates ISK out of nothing.
Modules get bought from people.

What did I miss?


The bit where the ships and modules are destroyed.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#322 - 2014-04-02 12:16:36 UTC
Ella Echerie wrote:


The bit where the ships and modules are destroyed.


The isk isnt removed, just the ship.
Solecist Project
#323 - 2014-04-02 12:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Ella Echerie wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Ella Echerie wrote:
Pointless troll thread is... um... pointless (and full of trolls).

PvE = ISK faucet.
PvP = ISK sink.

The balance between these rules keeps the power creep in check, and enables the persistent world sandbox.

The conflict driver for PvP should be to gain access to more valuable PvE. Some legitimately argue this is lacking at the moment, but methinks CCP know this and are working towards solutions.

EVE is both PvE and PvP by necessity, anyone who suggests otherwise has tunnel vision.

How is PvP an isk sink?

Ships get bought from people.
Insurance creates ISK out of nothing.
Modules get bought from people.

What did I miss?


The bit where the ships and modules are destroyed.
Ships are bought from players,
meaning isk gets transfered and not destroyed, plus insurance actually adds isk to the game.

Modules are bought from players, so isk gets transfered and not destroyed.



How exactly is PvP an isk sink?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Ella Echerie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2014-04-02 12:40:59 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Ella Echerie wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Ella Echerie wrote:
Pointless troll thread is... um... pointless (and full of trolls).

PvE = ISK faucet.
PvP = ISK sink.

The balance between these rules keeps the power creep in check, and enables the persistent world sandbox.

The conflict driver for PvP should be to gain access to more valuable PvE. Some legitimately argue this is lacking at the moment, but methinks CCP know this and are working towards solutions.

EVE is both PvE and PvP by necessity, anyone who suggests otherwise has tunnel vision.

How is PvP an isk sink?

Ships get bought from people.
Insurance creates ISK out of nothing.
Modules get bought from people.

What did I miss?


The bit where the ships and modules are destroyed.
Ships are bought from players,
meaning isk gets transfered and not destroyed, plus insurance actually adds isk to the game.

Modules are bought from players, so isk gets transfered and not destroyed.



How exactly is PvP an isk sink?


Player A mines 50m worth of minerals and builds a battlecruiser worth 50m. Player A is worth 50m.

Player B mines 50m worth of minerals and sells them. He then buys said battlecruiser off Player A. Player A and Player B are both worth 50m. Player B loses battlecruiser in PvP. He gets 25m net insurance. Player A is now worth 50m and Player B is worth 25m. 25m has been destroyed through PvP.

Apologies for not being concise in my other post, I suppose I should have called it a wealth/value/worth sink to be more clear, but doesn't the concept remain the same? PvP is not positive sum or zero sum, it is negative sum by design. Certain ingame entities have in the past abused mechanics to achieve positive sum from destroying ships, but this has always been fixed quickly because it is not the design of the game.
Solecist Project
#325 - 2014-04-02 13:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Ah so you understand that PvP is not an isk sink, as no isk is being removed from the game.

It seems you are applying it locally (wealth of player), but that's not the context in which it is being used. Even in your example you can see that no isk is being destroyed, but actually added.

I don't see how your example makes sense actually. There aren't 25mill being destroyed. The isk is being moved from one player to another.

B has 50mill.
B buys from A.
A now has 50mill and B has a ship *potentially* worth 50mill.
B loses ship. B receives insurance.
No ISK being destroyed, as the ship only had *potential* value of 50mill.


PvP is, like PvE, an ISK faucet... although on a much smaller scale.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Ella Echerie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2014-04-02 13:42:18 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Ah so you understand that PvP is not an isk sink, as no isk is being removed from the game.

It seems you are applying it locally (wealth of player), but that's not the context in which it is being used. Even in your example you can see that no isk is being destroyed, but actually added.

I don't see how your example makes sense actually. There aren't 25mill being destroyed. The isk is being moved from one player to another.

B has 50mill.
B buys from A.
A now has 50mill and B has a ship *potentially* worth 50mill.
B loses ship. B receives insurance.
No ISK being destroyed, as the ship only had *potential* value of 50mill.


PvP is, like PvE, an ISK faucet... although on a much smaller scale.


Yeh you are right. I miscommunicated, the concept I was getting at is to do with resources being generated in PvE and removed in PvP, therefore the 2 activities balance each other out. PvP is negative sum and requires PvE to sustain. Again sorry for the error.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2014-04-02 14:58:41 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:

I don't see how your example makes sense actually. There aren't 25mill being destroyed. The isk is being moved from one player to another.

B has 50mill.
B buys from A.
A now has 50mill and B has a ship *potentially* worth 50mill.
B loses ship. B receives insurance.
No ISK being destroyed, as the ship only had *potential* value of 50mill.

and now B buys another ship for his 50mil ISK.

Or he doesn't. Because he has no 50mil ISK, but only 'insurance' amount of it.

So it is clear 'ISK sink' for B to lose his ship. And that was original point which was completely missed by all military experts.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Tor Norman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#328 - 2014-04-02 17:03:43 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:

I don't see how your example makes sense actually. There aren't 25mill being destroyed. The isk is being moved from one player to another.

B has 50mill.
B buys from A.
A now has 50mill and B has a ship *potentially* worth 50mill.
B loses ship. B receives insurance.
No ISK being destroyed, as the ship only had *potential* value of 50mill.

and now B buys another ship for his 50mil ISK.

Or he doesn't. Because he has no 50mil ISK, but only 'insurance' amount of it.

So it is clear 'ISK sink' for B to lose his ship. And that was original point which was completely missed by all military experts.

Actually, thanks to insurance, ISK isn't being sunk out of the economy but being seeded into it.

I talk about EVE trading and general space violence in my blog.

For the ISK and the yarr!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#329 - 2014-04-02 17:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Aside from the fact that PVP includes many of the activities he listed as PVE, has anyone pointed out that the act of evading hostiles is actually also participating in PVP?

His goal is to find and kill you, your goal is to evade or outrun him so you can go do something else. That interaction is player vs player competition and very combat related... and something you engage in every time you undock.

Furthermore, without this element of danger, your interest in this game would fade rapidly and you would quit within a relatively short period of time.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.