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Efficiency - researched BPO's and skill
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Leonard Exx
Equity Nuclear
#1 - 2014-01-03 03:13:36 UTC
Is there still waste when using a perfect BPC? I have my labs churning out copious amounts of researched copies, and was wondering if PE still had any effect of a perfect copy of something. I have a few manufacturing slots open on another toon without PE, and it would be nice to be able to fire up untrained alts for the odd "emergency" run of something.

I had thought PE always made a difference because there was always a certain amount of waste, regardless of BPC.. but my untrained alt just manufactured a guristas tower at lower cost than a blueprint website reported it should have cost...

Thanks
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2 - 2014-01-03 05:05:34 UTC
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/

Production efficiency has no effect on extra materials, unless they also appear in the basic materials.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2014-01-03 05:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Beware that some websites are wrong. Good ones:
http://zofu.no-ip.de/bpo
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/market.php?group_id=2
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/
~~

All BPO have a M.E. level that is maximum, or "perfect", beyond which point additional research has no effect.

However because P.E. is not rounded like M.E. is (to the nearest unit of material), additional P.E. research does help reduce production time fractionally.

Perfect M.E. on a 10% base BPO = FLOOR( largest non-extra material count on a M.E. 0 BPO / 5.5 )
[floor means drop the fraction, don't round.]

This can be a number that takes years of research; I only recommend perfect on ammo or scripts, since that is fast to research. The same formula can be applied to any material subject to waste to see what M.E. is needed for eliminating waste; usually there is no point eliminating waste on trit and pyerite.

M.E. 20 is: 10% / (20 + 1) < 0.5% waste, and good enough for most anything. Similarly P.E. 20 is 25% / (20 + 1) < 1.2%

I recommend limiting research to level 20 or 30 days, whichever comes first.

EDIT: The general perfect M.E. formula is ME = FLOOR( Max Count / ((1 + base waste) / (2 * base waste)) )
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-01-03 05:52:24 UTC
The production efficiency skill, if less than 5, results in extra waste on any BPO that has materials in the basic materials catergory. Towers only have Extra Materials, therefore they take the same to make regardless of your production efficiency skill, regardless of ME. Most (all?) structures are like that and there are a couple other items around that are the same.
Leonard Exx
Equity Nuclear
#5 - 2014-01-03 07:35:27 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
The production efficiency skill, if less than 5, results in extra waste on any BPO that has materials in the basic materials catergory. Towers only have Extra Materials, therefore they take the same to make regardless of your production efficiency skill, regardless of ME. Most (all?) structures are like that and there are a couple other items around that are the same.


Ok, so for instance I have a damage control 1 BPO researched ME to 200, it has zero percent waste. My PE is level 4, so I will still have a fractional amount of waste regardless of the research level?

I am aware you generally research a BPO to "optimal" not to "perfect" , and about the large deployables being made from components. The Gurista control tower is made from ore and a regular tower. The BPC is perfect, 0% waste.. I manufactured it with a PE level 2 character with zero waste...

Would there normally be waste on a perfect blueprint with PE level 2? Or does the efficiency of the BP override the skill based efficiency?

It would be nice to be able to use an unskilled alt for a long term job if the waste was marginal.
Leonard Exx
Equity Nuclear
#6 - 2014-01-03 07:43:34 UTC
Leonard Exx wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
The production efficiency skill, if less than 5, results in extra waste on any BPO that has materials in the basic materials catergory. Towers only have Extra Materials, therefore they take the same to make regardless of your production efficiency skill, regardless of ME. Most (all?) structures are like that and there are a couple other items around that are the same.


Ok, so for instance I have a damage control 1 BPO researched ME to 200, it has zero percent waste. My PE is level 4, so I will still have a fractional amount of waste regardless of the research level?

I am aware you generally research a BPO to "optimal" not to "perfect" , and about the large deployables being made from components. The Gurista control tower is made from ore and a regular tower. The BPC is perfect, 0% waste.. I manufactured it with a PE level 2 character with zero waste...

Would there normally be waste on a perfect blueprint with PE level 2? Or does the efficiency of the BP override the skill based efficiency?

It would be nice to be able to use an unskilled alt for a long term job if the waste was marginal.



OK, looking this up on https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/calc.php

This BPC has no waste regardless of PE... So I guess that answers my question, loot drops are special and don't work like any other BP.

ME and PE are based off seperate waste pools as I originally thought.. Sort of silly the rules are different for the same type of item.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#7 - 2014-01-03 09:45:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Leonard Exx wrote:
OK, looking this up on https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/calc.php

This BPC has no waste regardless of PE... So I guess that answers my question, loot drops are special and don't work like any other BP.

ME and PE are based off seperate waste pools as I originally thought.. Sort of silly the rules are different for the same type of item.
It's not actually different for dropped BPCs as such.

All blueprints can have 2 sections of materials. Base materials, which are affected by both the skill and the ME, and extra materials, which are affected by skill but ONLY if they also appear in the list of base materials.

So because your BPC only has extra materials, it will not be affected by any waste.

The calculations are complex, but I wouldn't say silly.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#8 - 2014-01-03 10:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Leonard Exx wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
The production efficiency skill, if less than 5, results in extra waste on any BPO that has materials in the basic materials catergory. Towers only have Extra Materials, therefore they take the same to make regardless of your production efficiency skill, regardless of ME. Most (all?) structures are like that and there are a couple other items around that are the same.


Ok, so for instance I have a damage control 1 BPO researched ME to 200, it has zero percent waste. My PE is level 4, so I will still have a fractional amount of waste regardless of the research level?

I am aware you generally research a BPO to "optimal" not to "perfect" , and about the large deployables being made from components. The Gurista control tower is made from ore and a regular tower. The BPC is perfect, 0% waste.. I manufactured it with a PE level 2 character with zero waste...

Would there normally be waste on a perfect blueprint with PE level 2? Or does the efficiency of the BP override the skill based efficiency?

It would be nice to be able to use an unskilled alt for a long term job if the waste was marginal.


A DC1 blueprint, researched to an ME of 191 (which is the perfect value for it), at Production Efficiency 4, has 2 mexallon, 48 Tritanium as waste.




The calculations for waste from Production efficiency, and those for waste from the blueprint's ME are handled separately.

ME waste only ever applies to materials which are known as base materials.

Production Efficiency waste applies to materials which are base materials. It also applies to those Extra materials which also appear as base materials.

That's why I display them separately on the calculator.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-01-03 18:32:48 UTC
Leonard Exx wrote:
So I guess that answers my question, loot drops are special and don't work like any other BP.


They're not special. BPs dropped as loot behave the same way as any other blueprint does.

Blueprints which only have Extra Materials, such as control towers (including the faction ones), have no waste from ME and no waste from the production efficiency skill. Blueprints which have normal materials (with or without extra materials), such as modules, ships, ammo, have both waste from their ME if not perfect and waste from the production efficiency skill if it's not 5.