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The golem and torpedoes

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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#21 - 2014-01-02 19:06:39 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:

1. I got caught red handed. look at my killboard im no idiot.


You may not be, but your killboard also says that virtually all of your pvp experience is flying a rook in FW 5 months ago. You have no business pvping in a golem. And common sense says you have no business belt ratting in one either, because as you said, a raven does it pretty well too.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Maxor Swift
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-01-02 19:27:46 UTC
I trained for a long time to get a golem and was VERY unhappy that my navy scorp was better in every meaningful way.

"What you talking about willis"
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#23 - 2014-01-02 19:31:38 UTC
Maxor Swift wrote:
I trained for a long time to get a golem and was VERY unhappy that my navy scorp was better in every meaningful way.


Then something was very wrong with your golem What?

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
stoicfaux
#24 - 2014-01-02 19:43:06 UTC
I was under the impression that the OP was mainly annoyed that he wasn't able to do meaningful damage to the Tornado, thus the question being why can't a two TP torp Golem represent itself despite the OP's fitting and tactics SNAFUs?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#25 - 2014-01-02 20:05:54 UTC
My only theory is that they were tanked against kinetic. I'm confident that if I had been using thermal I would have killed them. Also a rupture with two tps on it should have a sig radius over 200? Torps will apply nearly full damage to that or should. I didn't record the fight so without their commentary I can't give any more useful info.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#26 - 2014-01-02 20:37:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
stoicfaux wrote:
I was under the impression that the OP was mainly annoyed that he wasn't able to do meaningful damage to the Tornado, thus the question being why can't a two TP torp Golem represent itself despite the OP's fitting and tactics SNAFUs?



Because he didn't fit rigors or use application hardwires, the nado was moving at least 2x the explosion velocity. Despite all this, he still should have been doing major damage to that tornado (70% application), but it still would have taken 45 seconds to get through the nados shields (the nado could have disengaged at will as well. I'm guessing the scythe hit the field and started repping before it got to that point. If he had rigors he would have had 90-100% application with two painters and faction torps.

It seems he was tackled by the rupture, which has a much smaller sig. There's no reason to think these guys were tanked for kinetic.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#27 - 2014-01-02 20:58:13 UTC
Yeah that clone was a bit of a shambles. All my other missile clones have the application implants. I personally feel that rigors are a bit of a waste. Ok yes they would have done me a favour in this situation but in more general terms I prefer to get some range. Fwiw my dps with that fit was 1250 from torps so 70% of that is 875?
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#28 - 2014-01-02 21:12:18 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Yeah that clone was a bit of a shambles. All my other missile clones have the application implants. I personally feel that rigors are a bit of a waste. Ok yes they would have done me a favour in this situation but in more general terms I prefer to get some range. Fwiw my dps with that fit was 1250 from torps so 70% of that is 875?


something like that. Then you compare that to a nado with over 13k shields and 60% kinetic resistance. Or again, worse vs a rupture.

Rig wise I think range rigs are okay for torp setups, but rigors hugely benefit both torps and cruise, and definitely do better than the bay loading accelerator. One of the benefits being you can get full application with rage/fury, which is half the reason to fly a golem.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
stoicfaux
#29 - 2014-01-02 21:17:48 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Yeah that clone was a bit of a shambles. All my other missile clones have the application implants. I personally feel that rigors are a bit of a waste. Ok yes they would have done me a favour in this situation but in more general terms I prefer to get some range. Fwiw my dps with that fit was 1250 from torps so 70% of that is 875?

So... 1100 max DPS according to EFT (Vs, no implants, no drones, reload included.)

EFT's DPS chart says the Tornado's sig would be at 475m with the two RF TPs with 1,100 applied DPS (Tornado moving at 281m/s).
With an MWD (1,585m/s), it's still 1,100 applied DPS.
With an AB (633m/s,) the applied DPS drops to ~800.

EFT's DPS chart says the Rupture's sig would be at 304m with the two RF TPs for ~1,100 applied DPS (rupture moving at 236m/s.)
With an MWD (1,524m/s,) the DPS drops to ~1,060.
With an AB (584m/s), the DPS drops to ~570.


What kind of damage numbers does your log show?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Chris Winter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-01-02 21:18:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
Did they use something on you that prevented you from launching your drones?

Edit: Also, you seem to be missing that there's a difference between the EFT dps number and the damage that actually can get applied to targets.
stoicfaux
#31 - 2014-01-02 21:37:57 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Did they use something on you that prevented you from launching your drones?

Edit: Also, you seem to be missing that there's a difference between the EFT dps number and the damage that actually can get applied to targets.

FYI in general for those who don't know, you can drag and drop items (such as TPs) from Ship A in EFT to Ship B's 'projected effects' section to see how TPs, Webs, etc., would impact applied DPS.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#32 - 2014-01-02 21:48:09 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Yeah that clone was a bit of a shambles. All my other missile clones have the application implants. I personally feel that rigors are a bit of a waste. Ok yes they would have done me a favour in this situation but in more general terms I prefer to get some range. Fwiw my dps with that fit was 1250 from torps so 70% of that is 875?

So... 1100 max DPS according to EFT (Vs, no implants, no drones, reload included.)

EFT's DPS chart says the Tornado's sig would be at 475m with the two RF TPs with 1,100 applied DPS (Tornado moving at 281m/s).
With an MWD (1,585m/s), it's still 1,100 applied DPS.
With an AB (633m/s,) the applied DPS drops to ~800.



Tornados sig should be higher, needs 2 LSE's and 3 extender rigs (i looked the guys fit up :p). Also has a nanofiber for 308m/s. Couldn't find the rupture pilot's fit, he hasn't lost one recently. I plugged in lvl 4 for marauders, GMP, TNP, and signature focusing. This gave me 125m/s explosion velocity and 360 explosion radius. This is where I got 70% application. Also, Tornado should have 58% kinetic resistance with 1 t2 invuln.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Chris Winter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-01-02 21:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
Fun fact: if you had sold your 2x Dread Guristas invulns and your Pith B-Type Large, you could have swapped them for 2x Invuln II and a Gist C-Type XLarge, giving you ~250 more peak EHP/s repping and ~80 more sustained EHP/s. You'd also have ~350mil left over.

Or you could've gone all the way up to a Gist X-Type XLarge for about the same price as what you originally had, for even more reps.

Or you could suffer the loss of ~52 dps (crippling!) by dropping a CN BCS for a DCII, for even more absurd tank.

So basically, you're complaining that your tank wasn't good enough when you intentionally made choices that gimped your tank.

Also, if you only have level 4 missile support skills, there's another problem.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-01-02 22:01:45 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
IIshira wrote:
This loss wasn't because of the ship. This was strictly pilot error.

I hope this was a learning experience. Quickly thinking I can see a few points. I'm sure I've missed some.

1. Don't PVP in a PVE fitted ship

2. For "Pete's" sake train T2 launchers before you fly a Golem... They will save you a bit and also give you more range and DPS

3. Don't waste so much ISK on faction invulns... If you're ratting fit damage specific hardeners. Even deadspace specific hardeners are cheaper than faction invulns.

4. Don't neut a ship that can't be neuted..




1. I got caught red handed. look at my killboard im no idiot.
2. I have t2 everything. Faction launchers produce more dps unless you have specialists 5.
3. I found those hardeners through ratting in lowsec months and months ago. You're probably right but for the problem that marauders don't get t2 resists so omni tank modules are still a requirement.
4. I switched neuts to the rupture and sabre part of the way through to kill their scrams but too little too late.

The real crime here is that I undocked in something I had fully intended not to. I'm not going to keep repeating myself when I say how it all happened. The only reason I was even in branch was because I was moving ships between stations to get them freighted away. vOv Just bad timing really.


Are you sure faction launchers produce more DPS? Don't forget to factor in T2 torpedoes. I'm on my phone so no EFT.

It doesn't matter if you found them, bought them, or someone gave them to you. Way too expensive and not needed. Also omni tank is not needed since you should know what NPC's you're fighting and what damage they do.

If you don't mind losing so much ISK by all means keep on doing what you're doing. Just being in a Golem is going to attract pilots that want to gank you. The hull is over a bil and they could always get lucky and find a loot piñata like yours.
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#35 - 2014-01-03 00:14:00 UTC
Sadly in nullsec; You'd be better off with a CNR and cruise missiles aligning to a safe spot.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-01-03 00:25:57 UTC
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
Sadly in nullsec; You'd be better off with a CNR and cruise missiles aligning to a safe spot.


I would agree to this. The 60 second Bastion timer is more than enough time for someone to give you a bad day. Yes you can't be pointed with Bastion on but I would be willing to bet from the time it disengages, align and warp out is more than enough to be pointed. I haven't tested this so anyone feel free to correct me.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#37 - 2014-01-03 00:38:54 UTC
[Golem, Golem torps]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Large Micro Jump Drive
Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 150
Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 150
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Caldari Navy EM Ward Amplifier
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Dread Guristas Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Dread Guristas Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Dread Guristas Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Dread Guristas Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Bastion Module I

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II


Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x5
Warrior II x5

So the nitty-gritty is: my current stats (not all 5's)

1080 DPS from torps - 230/124 (radius/velocity)
1100hp/s tank per booster
Global resist profile 77% or higher

With all 5's

1100 DPS 214-133
1247hp/s per booster
78% or higher resists natively.

Charges are navy 150's at 4.3m3 each i can fit a metric fuckton in my cargohold. Now let's add on blue-pill and crash booster (standard versions)

1500hp/s tank per module
173-133 missile stats.

^ upsets me a lot since I had actually blue pills and crash boosters in the station ONE JUMP over. The more I think about what happened and how the more ******** I feel. At least we're learning something here. I lose 100 dps or so between the LBA-II but gain much better application against nearly all targets. This fit is also a mere 150mil more expensive than the one I lost thanks to the second t2 rig and the pithum b-type being naturally about 100mil more expensive than 2x DG. Very interesting to see.

As for tactics if I could repeat the fight with the above set up - definitely switch to EM or thermal and apply maximum pressure to the nado. Launch drones a bit earlier and keep 1 medium neut on the sabre, one on the rupture. If I manage to shut the ruptures shields off I can switch target to him and hopefully pop in 3-4 volleys (total damage looking at about 21-28k) . Pop crash booster early and pulse shield boosters as necessary.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#38 - 2014-01-03 00:48:26 UTC
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
Sadly in nullsec; You'd be better off with a CNR and cruise missiles aligning to a safe spot.


The bastion mode only increases range and tank - ECM immunity is largely a secondary benefit that I don't worry about here nor there. I wouldn't even engage bastion mode unless under attack from multiple assailants (in this case yes, 4 guys and a tengu who never showed up to the fight)
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#39 - 2014-01-03 01:01:09 UTC
And one more before going to bed

[Golem, Golem torps]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Co-Processor

Large Micro Jump Drive
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Caldari Navy EM Ward Amplifier
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Dread Guristas Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Dread Guristas Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Dread Guristas Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Dread Guristas Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I
Bastion Module I

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II


Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x5
Warrior II x5

Pretty good really. Just gotta get it to the target.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-01-03 02:15:49 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
Sadly in nullsec; You'd be better off with a CNR and cruise missiles aligning to a safe spot.


The bastion mode only increases range and tank - ECM immunity is largely a secondary benefit that I don't worry about here nor there. I wouldn't even engage bastion mode unless under attack from multiple assailants (in this case yes, 4 guys and a tengu who never showed up to the fight)


I don't think you're getting the point... The Bastion module prevents you from warping. You're a sitting duck unless you have lots of buddies in system that can help you. Yes it makes you super tanky, gives you range so great you'll take longer to die. If you're in a CNR you can simply just warp to a safe spot when hostiles come in system.
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