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Industrial index takes way too long to upgrade.
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#81 - 2014-01-03 16:47:43 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Words

Listen the ONLY WAY any of your ideas will work is if the entire alliance is some weird, totalitarian, horizontal collectivist structure.

Intake processor: "Congradulations on joining Collective 2958. Here is your Venture, and skill books to use a mining barge and strip miners. You have a daily quota of one million cubic meters of ( Looks at list ) Kernite. When you can fly a mining barge and use strip miners hand in your Venture and you will be issued a Procurer, also your daily production quota will be increased to five million cubic meters of Kernite. You will hand over all your Kernite production to the collective. If your ship is destroyed the daily production limit is increased to cover the cost of a new ship that will be issued you. If you fail to meet your production quota, you will be kicked from the collective. any questions?"

Newbie: "But I want to PvP."

Intake processor: "NO! You have been assigned your job, and welcome to Collective 2958. NEXT!"

GEE! sounds like fun to me. Roll
This makes literally no sense. Most allianes are a mix of PVP and PVE. CTAs mean that the PVE players need to join in the PVP as what is commonly referred to as an F1 monkey.
An individual or group mining or manufacturing in null does not require them to be some robot in a collective.

What I was pointing out is that you can't turn around and say "industry is useless in null because you need to buy low end minerals", then in the same breath say "high sec industry is not dead though" since the high sec industry requires items from null that it's can't obtain in high sec (at least not in volumes that are remotely comparable). Plenty of people can and do mine and manufacture in null. I really don't get how people can literally stamp there feet and claim there is no such thing as industry in null when it's plainly false.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#82 - 2014-01-03 16:52:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Falin Whalen wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
The crucial distinction to make here is that just because mining isn't great in nullsec does not mean industry is bad in nullsec.

Mining is an aspect of industry, it's not the main goal. I know many people with industrial characters that don't have any skillpoints in mining.

An alliance who is willing to build what it needs on-site, even if it requires shipping in various resources, will be at a distinct advantage versus an alliance who is not willing to do that.


WOOOSH!


That was the point flying over your head.

Industry sucks in null, because Mining sucks in general, but especially in null. The two are linked, like a pair of Siamese twins.

Industry needs minerals, LOTS OF MINERALS, and virtually no one in null is going to provide them because there is no ISK incentive to do so. Why mine when you could make twice as much ISK ratting in anomalies. We've already calculated the opportunity cost, and you get a better return skilling up a ratting character, than a mining character. In two months you can skill up a passable ratter, that can also get into cruisers for homeland defense. Meanwhile, in the same period of time, you can skill up a pretty good miner and do absolutely nothing else, because none of the skills he is training, translate into skills to defend the homeland. If there are no miners providing minerals for the production lines, who is going to produce anything. This means you could have stations with a thousand slots each, but nobody is going to use them when they have no minerals to produce anything with. Producers import MCH to have minerals for the big ticket items that would be cost prohibitive to import whole into null, or unable to be produced in highsec at all.

Since there is no ISK incentive to mine anything but the higends, and even then you would be better served by an anomaly ratter making at least half again more than your max skilled miner. Producers import modules to melt for minerals, and since you are already importing mineral modules, might as well import other things to sell on the market as well, and by that point, the producer will ask himself, "Why produce anything that can come from Jita anyway?" The null producer, instantly transforms into an importer, and eleven null production slots miraculously go idle.


Importing finished goods from null, is, for a wide variety of reasons, not as efficient as importing minerals (compressed or otherwise) and building what you need on-site.

Also: mining will never be a high-profit activity. Not ever. And it has nothing to do with the way nullsec was designed or whatever.

The market demands that mining be a low-profit activity (relative to others) because they need to go through a number of value-added steps before they turn into something useful, and mining is easy as hell.

Of course running anomalies will be more profitable than mining. How could it possibly be otherwise?

There's an internal logic to all markets that requires consistency, and you are basically demanding an outcome that is by definition impossible.

If minerals were worth a ton, then ship prices would be super high (bad for everybody) - and players would react by spending more time mining (bad for everybody - mining sucks) in order to reduce the price of minerals.

I guess I'm starting to lose track of your point.

You claim "industry sucks" in nullsec, but it's really just mining that "sucks" in nullsec, but even then lots of people mine specific minerals in nullsec because they either don't spawn in appreciable amounts in highsec....or at all.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2014-01-03 17:48:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
Pinky Hops wrote:
Importing finished goods from null, is, for a wide variety of reasons, not as efficient as importing minerals (compressed or otherwise) and building what you need on-site.

How is moving finished goods not more efficient than; moving finnished goods, refining them, moving the minerals to the factory outpost, building finnished goods, and then moving them to the local trade hub? Your logic, is not like our Earth logic.What?


Pinky Hops wrote:
You claim "industry sucks" in nullsec, but it's really just mining that "sucks" in nullsec, but even then lots of people mine specific minerals in nullsec because they either don't spawn in appreciable amounts in highsec....or at all.

That is it. They mine SPECIFIC ore that yields minerals that can not be found in highsec. (Loot melting contributes ~5% of the high end minerals in hig security space. Morphite being the only mineral avalible from, no other source than, null.) I'm not saying mining never happens in null, what I am saying is that the ammount of mining in null is sufficient to feed the high end minerals to high security space where it is turned into the items everyone uses. The only exception is things that can not be produced in highsec at all. (capital production mostly happens in low, and Supers can only be built in SOV null.)

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#84 - 2014-01-03 17:50:35 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Importing finished goods from null, is, for a wide variety of reasons, not as efficient as importing minerals (compressed or otherwise) and building what you need on-site.

How is moving finished goods not more efficient than; moving finnished goods, refining them, moving the minerals to the factory outpost, building finnished goods, and then moving them to the local trade hub? Your logic, is not like our Earth logic.What?

They somehow are able to refine and build all in the staging system

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#85 - 2014-01-03 18:00:28 UTC
Nuela wrote:

- Miners, particulary new ones, don't really want to mine the ores that are needed. Trit and Mex are what is needed but these ores are not 'glorious' enough I guess. For Pete sake you are already mining it is not like you aren't a peasant...mine what is needed :) This adds more to the instability of the previous point.


As long as you're paying more for high-ends than for mex, they're going to continue mining high ends. It just means the extra value of high ends makes them worth shipping out even if it means shipping in mex.

Quote:

- You cannot sell what you make for much over Jita. If you try, your stuff will just sit. People will go through enormous effort and risk to bring stuff in from hisec just to avoid paying you 10% above Jita. Hell, one guy in my alliance lost a Rorq trying to bring it in rather than pay +10% Jita and then tried AGAIN but made it. This alone would cause me to flee null sec production except I have a goal of setting a market buying minerals at near Jita.


I would expect this to vary widely by local population, locaiton, item type, and availability/reliability of local JF service. I've dabbled in import and resale in sov-null hubs, and I found plenty of things that would sell very quickly at margins much higher than 10%. I definitely wasn't looking at ship hulls though.

Quote:

- Coincidentally, these same people want more isk than Jita for certain items, like salvage and PI.

salvage is highly compressible, getting lots of it to Jita is easy. PI less so, but it is easy to stockpile enough to make it relatively worth it to freighter and courier contract it all the way to jita.

Quote:
In addition, the bottlenecks and **** of dealing with T2 is a nightmare.
T2 production is a pain, particularly because t2 producers tend to specialize in certain ships or lines of ships, while producing any ship requires the full gammut of complex moon goo.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2014-01-03 18:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Falin Whalen wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Importing finished goods from null, is, for a wide variety of reasons, not as efficient as importing minerals (compressed or otherwise) and building what you need on-site.

How is moving finished goods not more efficient than; moving finnished goods, refining them, moving the minerals to the factory outpost, building finnished goods, and then moving them to the local trade hub? Your logic, is not like our Earth logic.What?


Perhaps because you added too many steps there to make it sound more involved than it actually was. By your logic, moving finished goods entails:

Moving the finished goods. Moving the finished goods, and then moving the finished goods.

See, I too can make a single action sound like several actions (is this what you call "earth logic"?)

As for the advantages of building things on site...I think it's quite obvious. Roll Unless you prefer to spend fuel JF'ing stuff back/forth and building up stocks of unsold items that you didn't actually need.

Falin Whalen wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
You claim "industry sucks" in nullsec, but it's really just mining that "sucks" in nullsec, but even then lots of people mine specific minerals in nullsec because they either don't spawn in appreciable amounts in highsec....or at all.

That is it. They mine SPECIFIC ore that yields minerals that can not be found in highsec. (Loot melting contributes ~5% of the high end minerals in hig security space. Morphite being the only mineral avalible from, no other source than, null.) I'm not saying mining never happens in null, what I am saying is that the ammount of mining in null is sufficient to feed the high end minerals to high security space where it is turend into the items everyone uses. The only exception is things that can not be produced in highsec at all. (capital production mostly happens in low, and Supers can only be built in SOV null.)


And what's your complaint, here? You want mining in nullsec to be more profitable?

Again, the market demands that it be a low-profit activity. If nullsec mining was buffed, it wouldn't do anything to the profitability of it. It would (this is a real shocker....) just lower the price of minerals.

Mining is kind of like working at a convenience store. If they release some new terminal or register to make you more efficient at checking people through the line, you aren't going to get a raise. They will pay you exactly the same, regardless of how quickly you get people through the line.

If you don't like mining, don't do it, and stop complaining about it. Nobody forces you to. I do lots of industrial type stuff on other characters....But I NEVER mine.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#87 - 2014-01-03 18:05:12 UTC
Batelle wrote:

Quote:
- You cannot sell what you make for much over Jita. If you try, your stuff will just sit. People will go through enormous effort and risk to bring stuff in from hisec just to avoid paying you 10% above Jita. Hell, one guy in my alliance lost a Rorq trying to bring it in rather than pay +10% Jita and then tried AGAIN but made it. This alone would cause me to flee null sec production except I have a goal of setting a market buying minerals at near Jita.


I would expect this to vary widely by local population, locaiton, item type, and availability/reliability of local JF service. I've dabbled in import and resale in sov-null hubs, and I found plenty of things that would sell very quickly at margins much higher than 10%. I definitely wasn't looking at ship hulls though.

Given the tools used by our importers, everyone calculates margin over item+JF cost.

So people make margin over that, and for fitted ships, even more margin still for convenience. It works pretty well.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2014-01-03 18:32:55 UTC
They are so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#89 - 2014-01-03 18:38:11 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
They are so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should.



CCP is not going to add pad-locked gates so that you can turn nullsec into your mining fantasy land. How boring would that be? Jeez.

Is that you what you want to do? Sit in a system for weeks/months and do nothing but shoot rocks in nullsec?

Nullsec is the PvP sandbox, and no change will be made that inhibits this....Stop dreaming, seriously.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2014-01-03 18:50:31 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:
They are so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should.



CCP is not going to add pad-locked gates so that you can turn nullsec into your mining fantasy land. How boring would that be? Jeez.

Is that you what you want to do? Sit in a system for weeks/months and do nothing but shoot rocks in nullsec?

Nullsec is the PvP sandbox, and no change will be made that inhibits this....Stop dreaming, seriously.

WHAT!?!?!

Where the hell did this come from? Who the hell asked for any of that? Why are you going on about padlocking down systems to mine in?

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#91 - 2014-01-03 18:52:38 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:
They are so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should.

CCP is not going to add pad-locked gates so that you can turn nullsec into your mining fantasy land. How boring would that be? Jeez.

Is that you what you want to do? Sit in a system for weeks/months and do nothing but shoot rocks in nullsec?

Nullsec is the PvP sandbox, and no change will be made that inhibits this....Stop dreaming, seriously.

WHAT!?!?!

Where the hell did this come from? Who the hell asked for any of that? Why are you going on about padlocking down systems to mine in?

i don't get it ...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#92 - 2014-01-03 19:02:15 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:
They are so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should.



CCP is not going to add pad-locked gates so that you can turn nullsec into your mining fantasy land. How boring would that be? Jeez.

Is that you what you want to do? Sit in a system for weeks/months and do nothing but shoot rocks in nullsec?

Nullsec is the PvP sandbox, and no change will be made that inhibits this....Stop dreaming, seriously.

WHAT!?!?!

Where the hell did this come from? Who the hell asked for any of that? Why are you going on about padlocking down systems to mine in?


In what form do you want nullsec mining buffed that wouldn't inevitably turn into people demanding for a risk-free (or near) nullsec mining environment?

I'm against nullbearing being buffed, in general. It's a cancer upon EVE.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2014-01-03 20:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
Pinky Hops wrote:
In what form do you want nullsec mining buffed that wouldn't inevitably turn into people demanding for a risk-free (or near) nullsec mining environment?

Let me answer your second point first. Anybody can "demand" for a risk free environment out in null, and I would say to them, "Go biomass your character, and get out." If you can wrest control over a patch of null space and call it "safe," then good for you, otherwise go back to WoW.

As to the first point, I don't know. That is up to CCP. What I would like, is for more miners wanting to be out in null mining. I want the adventurous types to say, "Yea it's riskier out in null, but I want to do it." and not get laughed at. As it is, the few systems that do have an industrial index versus those without is roughly 1:10, and most of that is incidental because of ice. There is no reason to have more systems with mining upgrades, already the few miners, out in null, supply all of eve with enough high end minerals for all ship and module production.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka