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Industrial index takes way too long to upgrade.
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Movarer
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-01-02 12:36:25 UTC
Do you gain something (other then MORE minerals) from having the index up? I admit I know absolutely nothing about mining but I thought the index only added (more)hidden mineral belts? And if you are only 3-4 people not able to bring it up, is there a gain to have it up? You obviously cant mine it all since you are not able to raise it anyhow?

I guess its all down to cherrypicking the best stuff and leaving the rest, but thats not really how the index should work anyway is it?

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#22 - 2014-01-02 12:43:19 UTC
Movarer wrote:
Do you gain something (other then MORE minerals) from having the index up? I admit I know absolutely nothing about mining but I thought the index only added (more)hidden mineral belts? And if you are only 3-4 people not able to bring it up, is there a gain to have it up? You obviously cant mine it all since you are not able to raise it anyhow?

I guess its all down to cherrypicking the best stuff and leaving the rest, but thats not really how the index should work anyway is it?
Yeah, the only benefit is that there will be more ABCs without cycling the belts. As soon as you clear a belt (then warp away) a new one spawns in it's place, so you can have an infinite amount of ore ony any level. People just usually like 3+ because the gravs that get added (I think it was the large, cant remember what it's called since the change) is easier and more cost effective to cycle that say the small (which has THE SPOD). You don't actually gain any natural advantage from increasing the index. Essentially it's just as simple way to scale the amounts of ore based on how many people you have mining it.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#23 - 2014-01-02 12:44:03 UTC
Movarer wrote:
Do you gain something (other then MORE minerals) from having the index up? I admit I know absolutely nothing about mining but I thought the index only added (more)hidden mineral belts? And if you are only 3-4 people not able to bring it up, is there a gain to have it up? You obviously cant mine it all since you are not able to raise it anyhow?

I guess its all down to cherrypicking the best stuff and leaving the rest, but thats not really how the index should work anyway is it?



At zero, you just have the normal asteroid belts. At 1 you get a small asteroid anom. At 2 you get a small and a medium. At 3 you get a small, medium and a large. At 4 you get an extra large and at 5 a huge. The value of each increases due to the extra m3 and asteroid configuration. As the m3 increases, so does the number of miners that can be supported. Unfortunately it only takes 1 cloaky camper 2 days to reduce industry index down from 5 to 4 or 4 to 3 and this is indeed the most common reason why indices drop.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#24 - 2014-01-02 12:53:23 UTC
Spod at least isn't terrible now
Prince Kobol
#25 - 2014-01-02 12:57:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Lucas Kell wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Industry + null sec = pointless
Yes, because titans build themselves.


Yes because all the minerals that are required to build a titan are mined in null sec.

Oh that's right the majority are mined in HS, built into components, usually 425mm Railgun I however the bastion module may change this now (check your own propaganda website), transported to null, reprocessed back into minerals.

Yes Industry in null sec is working fine Roll

Also where are most ships and mods built, that's right, HS and LS.

The only reason Titans and Supers are built in null is because you require Sov, remove this necessity and they would be built in low sec.

They are built there because you have no other choice, not because it is the best place.

So yes, Industry + null sec = pointless
Movarer
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-01-02 13:20:21 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Movarer wrote:
Do you gain something (other then MORE minerals) from having the index up? I admit I know absolutely nothing about mining but I thought the index only added (more)hidden mineral belts? And if you are only 3-4 people not able to bring it up, is there a gain to have it up? You obviously cant mine it all since you are not able to raise it anyhow?

I guess its all down to cherrypicking the best stuff and leaving the rest, but thats not really how the index should work anyway is it?



At zero, you just have the normal asteroid belts. At 1 you get a small asteroid anom. At 2 you get a small and a medium. At 3 you get a small, medium and a large. At 4 you get an extra large and at 5 a huge. The value of each increases due to the extra m3 and asteroid configuration. As the m3 increases, so does the number of miners that can be supported. Unfortunately it only takes 1 cloaky camper 2 days to reduce industry index down from 5 to 4 or 4 to 3 and this is indeed the most common reason why indices drop.


Yeah thats what I got from the very little knowledge I had too, so my point kind of still stands then? There is no real reason for a 3-4 people group to expect it to rise above 1 is it? They cant cycle it fast enough anyway and to just get the index up to cherry pick (even more) isnt really what its for.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#27 - 2014-01-02 13:22:28 UTC
Movarer wrote:

Yeah thats what I got from the very little knowledge I had too, so my point kind of still stands then? There is no real reason for a 3-4 people group to expect it to rise above 1 is it? They cant cycle it fast enough anyway and to just get the index up to cherry pick (even more) isnt really what its for.


3-4? Nope. Probably not.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#28 - 2014-01-02 13:22:55 UTC
Movarer wrote:
Do you gain something (other then MORE minerals) from having the index up? I admit I know absolutely nothing about mining but I thought the index only added (more)hidden mineral belts? And if you are only 3-4 people not able to bring it up, is there a gain to have it up? You obviously cant mine it all since you are not able to raise it anyhow?

I guess its all down to cherrypicking the best stuff and leaving the rest, but thats not really how the index should work anyway is it?



Most people wouldn't choose to shoot a hidden den if there was a forsaken hub available. The industry index being up also allows you to have mini prof arrays in your hub, but miniprofs spawn in plague proportions anyway. ie that flexibility is afforded combat pilots so why not indies ?

Note that as a solo combat ratter, I've personally held a military index at 4 for weeks on end, and usually bounce between 2 and 3 when stuck at work, and hardly able to play.

Its also an utter ***** to get industry started unless you have sufficient belts. A system with 3 belts, just need a sanctum to spawn and you'll be most of the way to military 1. I think a 3 belt system is extremely painful for getting the index up for mining.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-01-02 13:40:31 UTC
Kawaiian Breeze wrote:
CCP has made it very clear they do not want anyone living and working in sovereign space. No building, no industry, no mining, hell- you cant even rat anymore with the invincible inties buzzing all over. RIP 0.0 2014

Thus spake 0-like NPC corp alt, the great voice of wisdom on the subject.

Dodixie > Hek
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#30 - 2014-01-02 13:42:50 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Industry + null sec = pointless
Yes, because titans build themselves.


Yes because all the minerals that are required to build a titan are mined in null sec.

Oh that's right the majority are mined in HS, built into components, usually 425mm Railgun I however the bastion module may change this now (check your own propaganda website), transported to null, reprocessed back into minerals.

Yes Industry in null sec is working fine Roll

Also where are most ships and mods built, that's right, HS and LS.

The only reason Titans and Supers are built in null is because you require Sov, remove this necessity and they would be built in low sec.

They are built there because you have no other choice, not because it is the best place.

So yes, Industry + null sec = pointless
lol
Most of the high end minerals do not come from high sec. Most of those come from null, then the shipping of your low end bulk mats is done from high sec to fill in the blank.

Also the actual act of building a titan, however your sourced the materials, is an industry task.

But it doesn't end there, most alliances have internal departments dedicated to building ships and modules and structures. You really are delusional if you think everything is just shipped from high/low.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Prince Kobol
#31 - 2014-01-02 14:30:11 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Industry + null sec = pointless
Yes, because titans build themselves.


Yes because all the minerals that are required to build a titan are mined in null sec.

Oh that's right the majority are mined in HS, built into components, usually 425mm Railgun I however the bastion module may change this now (check your own propaganda website), transported to null, reprocessed back into minerals.

Yes Industry in null sec is working fine Roll

Also where are most ships and mods built, that's right, HS and LS.

The only reason Titans and Supers are built in null is because you require Sov, remove this necessity and they would be built in low sec.

They are built there because you have no other choice, not because it is the best place.

So yes, Industry + null sec = pointless
lol
Most of the high end minerals do not come from high sec. Most of those come from null, then the shipping of your low end bulk mats is done from high sec to fill in the blank.

Also the actual act of building a titan, however your sourced the materials, is an industry task.

But it doesn't end there, most alliances have internal departments dedicated to building ships and modules and structures. You really are delusional if you think everything is just shipped from high/low.



Most if not all Alliances build Supers / Titans this way.

Are you seriously trying to argue that it is easier to mine all minerals needed to build a super / titan in null then it is to mine them in HS?

People have been building Titans / Supers like this for years now.

I suggest you read this..

http://themittani.com/features/module-compression-hauling-bastion-modules?page=0%2C1

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#32 - 2014-01-02 15:02:47 UTC
+1

Just looking at the map you see index 5 military everywhere and very few index 5 industry. I don't see any downside to increasing the effect of mining when it comes to raising that index.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-01-02 15:11:20 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
To get from 4-5 it takes like 10 people 6 hours or something.
You lot must have very small ......... alliances ................ ;)
:p
this was just the ballpark figure that most corps should be able to kick out. I rarely mine nowadays, let alone involve myself in sustaining the indexes. I think the guys that do do well enough though.

Oh i have to agree with you on that one, honey. :)
The guys with the bigger ..... alliances ..... usually do well enough. ;)

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#34 - 2014-01-02 15:15:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
lol
Most of the high end minerals do not come from high sec. Most of those come from null, then the shipping of your low end bulk mats is done from high sec to fill in the blank.

Also the actual act of building a titan, however your sourced the materials, is an industry task.

But it doesn't end there, most alliances have internal departments dedicated to building ships and modules and structures. You really are delusional if you think everything is just shipped from high/low.
Most if not all Alliances build Supers / Titans this way.

Are you seriously trying to argue that it is easier to mine all minerals needed to build a super / titan in null then it is to mine them in HS?

People have been building Titans / Supers like this for years now.

I suggest you read this..

http://themittani.com/features/module-compression-hauling-bastion-modules?page=0%2C1

No, I am in fact saying it's impossible to mine all of the minerals in high sec. Yes, I know bastion modules are great for compression however that still does not make magical megacyte rocks appear in high sec. And no amount of high sec mining is going to compete with a 20 man mining fleet with a full deployed rorqual boost in terms of efficiency.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-01-02 15:24:51 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Disagree to BS sized mining boats, agree to cap sized mining boats (for low/null only). BS sized mining boats = risk free mining in high sec.


You can put a restriction on the ship to keep it from entering high sec. Just like apital ships and the rorqual.
Prince Kobol
#36 - 2014-01-02 15:32:00 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
lol
Most of the high end minerals do not come from high sec. Most of those come from null, then the shipping of your low end bulk mats is done from high sec to fill in the blank.

Also the actual act of building a titan, however your sourced the materials, is an industry task.

But it doesn't end there, most alliances have internal departments dedicated to building ships and modules and structures. You really are delusional if you think everything is just shipped from high/low.
Most if not all Alliances build Supers / Titans this way.

Are you seriously trying to argue that it is easier to mine all minerals needed to build a super / titan in null then it is to mine them in HS?

People have been building Titans / Supers like this for years now.

I suggest you read this..

http://themittani.com/features/module-compression-hauling-bastion-modules?page=0%2C1

No, I am in fact saying it's impossible to mine all of the minerals in high sec. Yes, I know bastion modules are great for compression however that still does not make magical megacyte rocks appear in high sec. And no amount of high sec mining is going to compete with a 20 man mining fleet with a full deployed rorqual boost in terms of efficiency.


I never said you can mine all the minerals in null..

Prince Kobol wrote:
Oh that's right the majority are mined in HS, built into components, usually 425mm Railgun I however the bastion module may change this now (check your own propaganda website), transported to null, reprocessed back into minerals.


You see that word I bolded :)

I suggest you look up the meaning Big smile
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#37 - 2014-01-02 15:51:27 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
lol
Most of the high end minerals do not come from high sec. Most of those come from null, then the shipping of your low end bulk mats is done from high sec to fill in the blank.

Also the actual act of building a titan, however your sourced the materials, is an industry task.

But it doesn't end there, most alliances have internal departments dedicated to building ships and modules and structures. You really are delusional if you think everything is just shipped from high/low.
Most if not all Alliances build Supers / Titans this way.

Are you seriously trying to argue that it is easier to mine all minerals needed to build a super / titan in null then it is to mine them in HS?

People have been building Titans / Supers like this for years now.

I suggest you read this..

http://themittani.com/features/module-compression-hauling-bastion-modules?page=0%2C1

No, I am in fact saying it's impossible to mine all of the minerals in high sec. Yes, I know bastion modules are great for compression however that still does not make magical megacyte rocks appear in high sec. And no amount of high sec mining is going to compete with a 20 man mining fleet with a full deployed rorqual boost in terms of efficiency.


I never said you can mine all the minerals in null..

Prince Kobol wrote:
Oh that's right the majority are mined in HS, built into components, usually 425mm Railgun I however the bastion module may change this now (check your own propaganda website), transported to null, reprocessed back into minerals.


You see that word I bolded :)

I suggest you look up the meaning Big smile
Uh... no. I stated "most of the minerals" which you took to mean "All". Essentially you mine out the high ends (and whatever junk it takes to cycle gravs) and you fill in your gaps with compression.

And for null industry to be "pointless" as you claim, there would have to be no reason to do it, which clearly, if you need to mine millions of units of megacyte there, there is a reason.

(and I think you meant to say "high" not "null" above)

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#38 - 2014-01-02 16:03:58 UTC
Batelle wrote:
+1

Just looking at the map you see index 5 military everywhere and very few index 5 industry. I don't see any downside to increasing the effect of mining when it comes to raising that index.


The reason you don't see index 5 industry as much is because when you hit index 5 the cloaky campers will arrive, like magic, preventing operations in your system, and it will rapidly degrade back down (to 3 usually, depending on the length of visit). An index of 5 is considered to be positively harmful for this reason.
Prince Kobol
#39 - 2014-01-02 16:06:34 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
stuff


No, your being pedantic as usual.

The whole argument about Indy being pointless in null, something which every nullsec alliance has argued including your own, is that in almost all respects it is better else where.

In regards to building Supers / Titans, this is something which should be more beneficial to do in null, instead the current situation is that it is better to gather the majority of minerals in HS, use the MCH, ship to null and reprocess.

This is quite simply a stupid situation.

Most of the items in Eve are built in HS then Low.

Very few people choose to build in null as it is the worst of all options available.

Apparently most people in Eve including many members in your own alliance can see that Industry in null sec is awful expect yourself
Um Winning
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-01-02 16:12:52 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Batelle wrote:
+1

Just looking at the map you see index 5 military everywhere and very few index 5 industry. I don't see any downside to increasing the effect of mining when it comes to raising that index.


The reason you don't see index 5 industry as much is because when you hit index 5 the cloaky campers will arrive, like magic, preventing operations in your system, and it will rapidly degrade back down (to 3 usually, depending on the length of visit). An index of 5 is considered to be positively harmful for this reason.


^^ This, with so much emphasis.

Industry Index to 5, is a calling card for all trolls and mutants alike. Running several systems in tangent to Index Level 3, is deemed more beneficial, as the decay rate /- intrusive rate that campers / PVP'ers come along, won't be affected that much, that quickly