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Why do people fly BS?

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Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#141 - 2014-01-03 08:27:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Let me ask the following question:

Choose your favorite battleship.

Now tell me what it does better over your favorite BC, HAC and Cruiser of the same race?



(All tanks below are when the ship is completely stationary.)

Hyperion. It does 1k DPS, whilst running a 3k DPS Active tank.
Dominix. It can handle 3 remote reps, 2 transfers, a 1k DPS local tank, and 80k EHP and still pump out 500 DPS.
Armageddon. 2k DPS tank with 65k EHP, plus Neuts. Lots and lots and lots of neuts.
Scorpion. ECM + Tank. You wont find that anywhere else.
Machariel. Does everything better.
Vindicator. Kills everything better.

The list goes on. They're not my favourites, they're just examples.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#142 - 2014-01-03 08:31:25 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Let me ask the following question:

Choose your favorite battleship.

Now tell me what it does better over your favorite BC, HAC and Cruiser of the same race?



(All tanks below are when the ship is completely stationary.)

Hyperion. It does 1k DPS, whilst running a 3k DPS Active tank.
Dominix. It can handle 3 remote reps, 2 transfers, a 1k DPS local tank, and 80k EHP and still pump out 500 DPS.
Armageddon. 2k DPS tank with 65k EHP, plus Neuts. Lots and lots and lots of neuts.
Scorpion. ECM + Tank. You wont find that anywhere else.
Machariel. Does everything better.
Vindicator. Kills everything better.

The list goes on. They're not my favourites, they're just examples.

…in fact, just skip the “favourite battleship” part since it doesn't matter — the answer to the second part is much the same regardless: better stopping power over better range with better tank backing it up.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#143 - 2014-01-03 08:34:48 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Let me ask the following question:

Choose your favorite battleship.

Now tell me what it does better over your favorite BC, HAC and Cruiser of the same race?



(All tanks below are when the ship is completely stationary.)

Hyperion. It does 1k DPS, whilst running a 3k DPS Active tank.
Dominix. It can handle 3 remote reps, 2 transfers, a 1k DPS local tank, and 80k EHP and still pump out 500 DPS.
Armageddon. 2k DPS tank with 65k EHP, plus Neuts. Lots and lots and lots of neuts.
Scorpion. ECM + Tank. You wont find that anywhere else.
Machariel. Does everything better.
Vindicator. Kills everything better.

The list goes on. They're not my favourites, they're just examples.

…in fact, just skip the “favourite battleship” part since it doesn't matter — the answer to the second part is much the same regardless: better stopping power over better range with better tank backing it up.

Well, T2 cruisers are fair game, for battleships, clearly the ones that make covert jump bridges are my favorite

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2014-01-03 08:35:18 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Let me ask the following question:

Choose your favorite battleship.

Now tell me what it does better over your favorite BC, HAC and Cruiser of the same race?



Seeing as how HACs are T2 and you seem to ignore non T3 cruisers when people bring those up im going to tell you that you are putting off the air of a tremendous Jackass ... now let me rewrite your question in a less biased against battleships method

Choose your favorite T1 battleship.

Now tell me what it does better over your favorite T1 BC and T1 Cruiser of the same race?

My favorite is probably a toss up between Rokh and Hyperion but for now ill just do Rokh

Rokh versus Naga Versus Moa

Rokh has an amazing tank that allows for it to sit there and peg whatever it needs to and the range bonus allows it to (without going into falloff) hit with Blasters in everything but super long point range (ie faction boosted max range Proteus/Lachesis) granted most Blaster ships need the target webbed but thats the benefit of the Rokh if the enemy isnt in web range you can still hit them with acceptable tracking and not much dps loss. Granted the Naga does the range thing better (its that damn dps bonus) but if you so much as sneeze at the Naga its going to fold in on itself. Now lets compare it to the Moa... Moa has acceptable Dps with passable range okay tank when taking into consideration it will end up webbed (nothing like Rokhs tank if it gets webbed) it only gets three drones... which granted ****** drone bays is a Caldari problem but still atleast rokh can keep two flights of small drones(warriors and ecm) Moa and Naga are faster but like I said they WILL get webbed in battle no denying it so that bonus only counts for getting in range and staying in range of the target which isnt as much an issue for the rokh because if it can get a point then it can hit ... Now sensor strength... ugh i gotta admit this is the downside of Battleships... but then again its a point of balance and one of the reasons why Battleships have moved into the spot of needing a support fleet of atleast a tackler... Which dont give me "Every ship that came out with the game originally was meant for solo work" thats a crock of **** its an mmo working together is encouraged. Now im not trying to promote blobbing but you cant really call a Rokh and a couple tacklers a Blob, and if I need a support ship to do my job then so be it this is a MMO make a flipping friend or two.

TLDR; Battleships need a support system even if its just a couple of buddies in fast tackle frigs or cruisers. You want a Solo PWNmobile then look for a smaller ship
Also comparing T1 to T2/T3 so that you can make your point just shows how ignorant and arrogant you really are.

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2014-01-03 08:36:42 UTC
Tasiv Deka wrote:
Logan Revelore wrote:
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ships are balanced around having ADV weapons upgrades V. IF you dont have it and is forced to limit your fittings, then you cannot complain of the power of your ship.

Anyway, to use a battleship in PVP you should have at LEAST 15 M sp. Before that you shoudluse smaller ships for PVP

I don't have a problem with the fitting, I find that large railguns are really not an improvement compared to medium ones.
You exchange more range for less tracking speed and the dps is near the same, it looks more like a sidegrade than a direct upgrade power-wise imo.

And actually I don't do PvP, I first need a proper income to pay for when I will get podded.


Have to agree with this. This is my exact experience as well. I've been trying to fit my Rokh to do level 4s, but so far I haven't been able to get it to any decent dps using hybrid rails. My BC Ferox does almost the same dps as a full fitted Rokh in EFT. So for now I'm sticking to doing level 3s since I'm clearly doing something wrong, or trying to get the wrong ship (Rokh) ready to do level 4s, it might not be possible at all, and I might have to accept that all my hybrid turret training has been a waste and I should start over in missiles and get a Navy Raven.


Blaster Rokh is quite a beast especially with null

Its also completely screwed by a T1 Cruiser (Thorax). Rokh vs Thorax

The cut off bit is the dps applied to the Thorax by the Rokh with 3 tracking computer II with tracking speed scripts and the Thorax webbed. Ironically with both ships scrammed but only the Thorax webbed the Rax is still faster than the Rokh by 40 mps.

You can clearly see how the the nerf to tracking and sig of weapons contributes to bring the Rokhs dps down from 1100 to about 50 to 100 dps while the Rax's damage is fully applied.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Diamond Zerg
Taking Solo Away.
#146 - 2014-01-03 08:48:21 UTC
I actually do think battleships need a buff— the warp speed changes did shaft them quite a lot.
They're darn fun, and look awesome.
Hi.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2014-01-03 08:55:05 UTC
Diamond Zerg wrote:
I actually do think battleships need a buff— the warp speed changes did shaft them quite a lot.
They're darn fun, and look awesome.




They indeed became strategically weaker. But ccp could use that as a chance to help the ones htat they cannot find a way to make them useful (aka tempest). Buffign the warp speed of those to near 2 AU would give them a distinct role among battleships)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2014-01-03 08:57:13 UTC
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ships are balanced around having ADV weapons upgrades V. IF you dont have it and is forced to limit your fittings, then you cannot complain of the power of your ship.

Anyway, to use a battleship in PVP you should have at LEAST 15 M sp. Before that you shoudluse smaller ships for PVP

I don't have a problem with the fitting, I find that large railguns are really not an improvement compared to medium ones.
You exchange more range for less tracking speed and the dps is near the same, it looks more like a sidegrade than a direct upgrade power-wise imo.

And actually I don't do PvP, I first need a proper income to pay for when I will get podded.



If you fit medium guns on a battleship that has damage bonus, then you should never ever undock that ship. You realize how wrong you are? Why attack BC needed to have 1/3rd of the EHP of combat BC while at same time not sporting drone defenses...? TO compensate a single thing.. LARGE WEAPONS.

They are FAR FAR more powerful than medium ones.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2014-01-03 08:58:22 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tasiv Deka wrote:
Logan Revelore wrote:
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ships are balanced around having ADV weapons upgrades V. IF you dont have it and is forced to limit your fittings, then you cannot complain of the power of your ship.

Anyway, to use a battleship in PVP you should have at LEAST 15 M sp. Before that you shoudluse smaller ships for PVP

I don't have a problem with the fitting, I find that large railguns are really not an improvement compared to medium ones.
You exchange more range for less tracking speed and the dps is near the same, it looks more like a sidegrade than a direct upgrade power-wise imo.

And actually I don't do PvP, I first need a proper income to pay for when I will get podded.


Have to agree with this. This is my exact experience as well. I've been trying to fit my Rokh to do level 4s, but so far I haven't been able to get it to any decent dps using hybrid rails. My BC Ferox does almost the same dps as a full fitted Rokh in EFT. So for now I'm sticking to doing level 3s since I'm clearly doing something wrong, or trying to get the wrong ship (Rokh) ready to do level 4s, it might not be possible at all, and I might have to accept that all my hybrid turret training has been a waste and I should start over in missiles and get a Navy Raven.


Blaster Rokh is quite a beast especially with null

Its also completely screwed by a T1 Cruiser (Thorax). Rokh vs Thorax

The cut off bit is the dps applied to the Thorax by the Rokh with 3 tracking computer II with tracking speed scripts and the Thorax webbed. Ironically with both ships scrammed but only the Thorax webbed the Rax is still faster than the Rokh by 40 mps.

You can clearly see how the the nerf to tracking and sig of weapons contributes to bring the Rokhs dps down from 1100 to about 50 to 100 dps while the Rax's damage is fully applied.


the one you quoted was actually me replying to the guy trying to use a rokh for PvE
And Null loaded the Rokh does more dps at simillar ranges with better tracking...and thats without tracking computers or enhancers (just one enhancer gives it better range and even better tracking)

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2014-01-03 09:02:26 UTC
Compare the following, considering a lot of people believe nerfs to scan resolution is to prevent insta blapping smaller ships:

Tempest
Scan Res with 2 Sebo's = 300mm
Alpha = 11k

Tornado
Scan Res with 2 Sebo's = 700mm
Alpha = 11.5k

Both fit the same weapons, both do roughly the same damage per volley, both fit the same scan res mods however both don't get the same scan res boost. In fact even 4 sebo's don't get the scan res on the Tempest as the Tornado gets with 2...

This diminishing returns on mods is one of the reason BS suck so much. Fitting a high end mod on a battleship often equates to in actuality, fitting a civilian mod, in comparison to fitting that same mod on a smaller ship.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#151 - 2014-01-03 09:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its also completely screwed by a T1 Cruiser (Thorax). Rokh vs Thorax
…if you royally screw up the fittings. What the hell are you doing to those poor ships?! Cry

Quote:
Both fit the same weapons, both do roughly the same damage per volley, both fit the same scan res mods however both don't get the same scan res boost. In fact even 4 sebo's don't get the scan res on the Tempest as the Tornado gets with 2...

This diminishing returns on mods is one of the reason BS suck so much. Fitting a high end mod on a battleship often equates to in actuality, fitting a civilian mod, in comparison to fitting that same mod on a smaller ship.
Yes, larger ships lock slower than smaller ships, and module bonuses are relative to the base stats. This is to make so that locking times are (roughly) the same for same-class targets. How does this make battleships suck?
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2014-01-03 09:05:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its also completely screwed by a T1 Cruiser (Thorax). Rokh vs Thorax
…if you royally screw up the fittings. What the hell are you doing to those poor ships?! Cry

Seriously looking at the graphs showing each one shooting the same ship (i basically put them both shooting the thorax) and the Rokh beats the Thorax all the way plus the Thorax has a *LOT* more to chew through then the Rokh would

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2014-01-03 09:06:38 UTC
Logan Revelore wrote:
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ships are balanced around having ADV weapons upgrades V. IF you dont have it and is forced to limit your fittings, then you cannot complain of the power of your ship.

Anyway, to use a battleship in PVP you should have at LEAST 15 M sp. Before that you shoudluse smaller ships for PVP

I don't have a problem with the fitting, I find that large railguns are really not an improvement compared to medium ones.
You exchange more range for less tracking speed and the dps is near the same, it looks more like a sidegrade than a direct upgrade power-wise imo.

And actually I don't do PvP, I first need a proper income to pay for when I will get podded.


Have to agree with this. This is my exact experience as well. I've been trying to fit my Rokh to do level 4s, but so far I haven't been able to get it to any decent dps using hybrid rails. My BC Ferox does almost the same dps as a full fitted Rokh in EFT. So for now I'm sticking to doing level 3s since I'm clearly doing something wrong, or trying to get the wrong ship (Rokh) ready to do level 4s, it might not be possible at all, and I might have to accept that all my hybrid turret training has been a waste and I should start over in missiles and get a Navy Raven.



Ferox 660 dps at 30 km..... Rokh 800 dps at 70 km (and A MJD that make it infinitely more versatile). Yeahh realy same class Roll


If you do not care much for the extra range ..

or your could simply fit a navy mega and reach over 1 K damage over 45 km....



So, no, you have no idea how to fit a battleship if your have same DPS as a BC.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2014-01-03 09:08:42 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Compare the following, considering a lot of people believe nerfs to scan resolution is to prevent insta blapping smaller ships:

Tempest
Scan Res with 2 Sebo's = 300mm
Alpha = 11k

Tornado
Scan Res with 2 Sebo's = 700mm
Alpha = 11.5k

Both fit the same weapons, both do roughly the same damage per volley, both fit the same scan res mods however both don't get the same scan res boost. In fact even 4 sebo's don't get the scan res on the Tempest as the Tornado gets with 2...

This diminishing returns on mods is one of the reason BS suck so much. Fitting a high end mod on a battleship often equates to in actuality, fitting a civilian mod, in comparison to fitting that same mod on a smaller ship.



You bring up basically the specific case of a ship that was made to steal the thunder of the tempest. On that role of insta popping small things you will want the tornado. plain and simple. That is its role.

But if you want to kill the other guy tornado you wil brign a tempest , not another tornado. Because your tornado can pop in one shot to his tornado. While his tornado cannot even DENT a tempest before the tempest return the favor...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#155 - 2014-01-03 09:10:46 UTC
Tasiv Deka wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its also completely screwed by a T1 Cruiser (Thorax). Rokh vs Thorax
…if you royally screw up the fittings. What the hell are you doing to those poor ships?! Cry

Seriously looking at the graphs showing each one shooting the same ship (i basically put them both shooting the thorax) and the Rokh beats the Thorax all the way plus the Thorax has a *LOT* more to chew through then the Rokh would

Good thing we don't have a rokh doctrine, but have a ferox one

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#156 - 2014-01-03 09:12:16 UTC
Infinity Ziona's combat and fitting philosophies derive from unrecorded years of experience, Tippia. You can't hope to compete with such brilliance and creativity.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2014-01-03 09:12:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tasiv Deka wrote:
Logan Revelore wrote:
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ships are balanced around having ADV weapons upgrades V. IF you dont have it and is forced to limit your fittings, then you cannot complain of the power of your ship.

Anyway, to use a battleship in PVP you should have at LEAST 15 M sp. Before that you shoudluse smaller ships for PVP

I don't have a problem with the fitting, I find that large railguns are really not an improvement compared to medium ones.
You exchange more range for less tracking speed and the dps is near the same, it looks more like a sidegrade than a direct upgrade power-wise imo.

And actually I don't do PvP, I first need a proper income to pay for when I will get podded.


Have to agree with this. This is my exact experience as well. I've been trying to fit my Rokh to do level 4s, but so far I haven't been able to get it to any decent dps using hybrid rails. My BC Ferox does almost the same dps as a full fitted Rokh in EFT. So for now I'm sticking to doing level 3s since I'm clearly doing something wrong, or trying to get the wrong ship (Rokh) ready to do level 4s, it might not be possible at all, and I might have to accept that all my hybrid turret training has been a waste and I should start over in missiles and get a Navy Raven.


Blaster Rokh is quite a beast especially with null

Its also completely screwed by a T1 Cruiser (Thorax). Rokh vs Thorax

The cut off bit is the dps applied to the Thorax by the Rokh with 3 tracking computer II with tracking speed scripts and the Thorax webbed. Ironically with both ships scrammed but only the Thorax webbed the Rax is still faster than the Rokh by 40 mps.

You can clearly see how the the nerf to tracking and sig of weapons contributes to bring the Rokhs dps down from 1100 to about 50 to 100 dps while the Rax's damage is fully applied.



You clearly have no clue how to fight don't you? geez... you must be even worse than in the forums.

A cruiser MUST get within 10 km to fight a battleship, or the Battleship will MJD away and leverage on its range advantage. And if you get under 10 km.. your graphs do not look so cute anymore.

Of course 3-4 thoraxes will kill a rokh, but that is how eve is designed, numbers means a lot.


Now take your same cute throax agaisnt a tempest.. it wil be OBLITERATED , no matter what you try. The same rokh altough has a fair chance of killing the tempest.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#158 - 2014-01-03 09:12:37 UTC
This is actually now a thread about trollfits for battleships

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#159 - 2014-01-03 09:14:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its also completely screwed by a T1 Cruiser (Thorax). Rokh vs Thorax
…if you royally screw up the fittings. What the hell are you doing to those poor ships?! Cry

Quote:
Both fit the same weapons, both do roughly the same damage per volley, both fit the same scan res mods however both don't get the same scan res boost. In fact even 4 sebo's don't get the scan res on the Tempest as the Tornado gets with 2...

This diminishing returns on mods is one of the reason BS suck so much. Fitting a high end mod on a battleship often equates to in actuality, fitting a civilian mod, in comparison to fitting that same mod on a smaller ship.
Yes, larger ships lock slower than smaller ships, and module bonuses are relative to the base stats. This is to make so that locking times are (roughly) the same for same-class targets. How does this make battleships suck?

The fittings are not important. The only thing that is important is in all cases a Rax inside 2k of a Rokh, even if the Rax is webbed, and the Rokh has 3 T2 Tracking Comps with Tracking Speed Scripts is invulnerable.

As for fittings they're both fittings from a certain player turned current developer who is quite renowned for his pvp.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2014-01-03 09:16:32 UTC
Tasiv Deka wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its also completely screwed by a T1 Cruiser (Thorax). Rokh vs Thorax
…if you royally screw up the fittings. What the hell are you doing to those poor ships?! Cry

Seriously looking at the graphs showing each one shooting the same ship (i basically put them both shooting the thorax) and the Rokh beats the Thorax all the way plus the Thorax has a *LOT* more to chew through then the Rokh would

Lol clearly you can see the top is the Rokh shooting the Rax, clearly the bottom is the Rax shooting the Rokh.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)