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Why do people fly BS?

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2014-01-02 13:04:46 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Battleships are powerful enough, people simply are not using them well

No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).



1v1 is now how you compare ships. Otherwise a tempest can defeat almost any ship smaller than him by sheer power of neuts combined with no cap usage guns. That altoguh doe snto make the temepst less horrible in real applications.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2014-01-02 13:06:01 UTC
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).

BSs are not junk or crap, they are big, slow, heavy and absolutely clumsy, but for that they get the best dps and the best tanking of all subcaps.
At least they are supposed to, if they do not then it's a problem.

Its a problem then because they dont. You would think they'd have the best tank but no they dont. You would think they'd have the best damage but no, they dont. They dont do anything best except. . . Yeah nothing. Even a Domi is beaten at overpwered subcap killing with sentries by carriers lol.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#83 - 2014-01-02 13:07:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Battleships are fine as is. They are a niche for PvP though. People very often use Battleships terribly. I know this because I regularly kill Battleships in something smaller. That said, I have regularly taken small Battleship gangs and trashed groups of three or four times the size.

It's about knowing how to use them. Mal pretty much has it right, it's about using big guns, high natural EHP, and lots of slots to their maximum effectiveness. Because they're not very mobile, your best using them defensively in situations where you are not the one doing the attacking or dictating the range of engagement for example attacking structures or fighting on station. Naturally high EHP, lots of slots, big capacitors and large cargo bays make BSs naturally good active tankers. And because they move slowly they rely quite heavily on their fleet members. Because they can use MJDs, you can also force people to fight within scram range (again, so long as your are fighting defensively).

They are much more 'module' intensive to fly, which can make it especially difficult for people who don't operate under stress well, or just people who don't have a great deal of PvP experience.

Edit: I would like to point out that when someone says 'taking into account signature radius, their tanks aren't better' they haven't actually properly 'taken into account' sigs. If I have a T3, who applicable active tank is the same as a Battleship when it's moving then that's great... But when you stop a Battleship from moving, it doesn't die an almost instant horrible death. That is an advantage any way you look at it. Smaller ships need to be moving to content with Battleships. Stop them from moving, and they don't content. Which is why MJDs are so awesome.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Omega Sunset
Black.Omega
#84 - 2014-01-02 13:13:21 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Battleships are a fleet vessel and are meant to be used as such. And in that role they have a number of useful positions.
Yes exactly, as I mentioned they are ships of the line. You need a line to hold such as in navy combat. They will do fine in solo missioning, but really they are best with escort ships, and some BS's really are only useful in pvp fleet engagements. Though I do take my scorp on lvl4's some times, fun challenge. People complain how boring lvl4's are, but maybe they cant get themselves to train for more than one ship? ...and whichever is considered optimal under theory craft.

—Ω—
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2014-01-02 13:16:41 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Battleships are powerful enough, people simply are not using them well

No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).



1v1 is now how you compare ships. Otherwise a tempest can defeat almost any ship smaller than him by sheer power of neuts combined with no cap usage guns. That altoguh doe snto make the temepst less horrible in real applications.

No you dont compare by fightng them you compare by ability.

Lock times

Mega 118 : with sebo 180 : with 2 sebo 270
Brutix 250 : with sebo 400
Thorax 350 : with sebo 550

EHP
Mega 118K
Proteus 135K

DPS
Mega 1000 : applied to cruiser 450
Proteus 900 : applied to cruiser 900

Real comparisons 1 v 1

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#86 - 2014-01-02 13:19:13 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

EHP
Mega 118K
Proteus 135K


Why are you passive tanking a ship that has an innate advantage when active tanking?

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2014-01-02 13:24:21 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

EHP
Mega 118K
Proteus 135K


Why are you passive tanking a ship that has an innate advantage when active tanking?

Theyre both buffer tanked. You realise the Proteus has a sub for buffer tanking and its tank is bigger than a battleships when fitted correctly. Foolish to active tank a Proteus imo.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#88 - 2014-01-02 13:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

EHP
Mega 118K
Proteus 135K


Why are you passive tanking a ship that has an innate advantage when active tanking?

Theyre both buffer tanked. You realise the Proteus has a sub for buffer tanking and its tank is bigger than a battleships when fitted correctly. Foolish to active tank a Proteus imo.


The mega, in it's nature as a Battleship, has a massive advantage being active tanked. There is no way, you can fit a Proteus to solo a propperly fit mega. Passive tanked Battleships are old hat, and only work now with on-grid logistics. Fit a web and scram to that mega, a MJD, and an active tank and there is nothing a proteus can do on it's own to win. It can escape, sure, and the Mega won't be able to catch it, but the opposite is also true. If your going to sit within web and scram range of a Mega, your going to die. Stray out of scram range, and you can't pin a mega with a MJD.

The natural advantage of a Battleship in active tanking, is that it has a large cargo bay for cap boosters, a natural buffer (that you don't need to add to) for some leeway in your active tank, and lots of slots. Plus, it doesn't rely on moving to keep it's tank up, unlike anything smaller that will explode almost instantly the moment it stops moving. Change the Mega for a Hyperion and the effect is massively exaggerated.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#89 - 2014-01-02 13:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Battleships are powerful enough, people simply are not using them well

No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).


Your data was a single badly fitted megathron being used for the wrong job vs my three years of flying nothing but megathrons. You have very little experience in BS which shows in your lack of knolage with large weapons, what the hulls can do and which ships are best for what tasks.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#90 - 2014-01-02 13:48:50 UTC
Ratting until t3 is trained.
The doctrine is battleships.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2014-01-02 13:55:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Arduemont wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

EHP
Mega 118K
Proteus 135K


Why are you passive tanking a ship that has an innate advantage when active tanking?

Theyre both buffer tanked. You realise the Proteus has a sub for buffer tanking and its tank is bigger than a battleships when fitted correctly. Foolish to active tank a Proteus imo.


The mega, in it's nature as a Battleship, has a massive advantage being active tanked. There is no way, you can fit a Proteus to solo a propperly fit mega. Passive tanked Battleships are old hat, and only work now with on-grid logistics. Fit a web and scram to that mega, a MJD, and an active tank and there is nothing a proteus can do on it's own to win. It can escape, sure, and the Mega won't be able to catch it, but the opposite is also true. If your going to sit within web and scram range of a Mega, your going to die. Stray out of scram range, and you can't pin a mega with a MJD.

The natural advantage of a Battleship in active tanking, is that it has a large cargo bay for cap boosters, a natural buffer (that you don't need to add to) for some leeway in your active tank, and lots of slots. Plus, it doesn't rely on moving to keep it's tank up, unlike anything smaller that will explode almost instantly the moment it stops moving. Change the Mega for a Hyperion and the effect is massively exaggerated.

Hmmm I don't know what you're thinking but if you're not using a buffer and max dps (can't do that with reppers) then you're doing it wrong imo. Mega is a in your face, blow it up till it dies or you die ship. Bleed tank maybe is okay but not relying on active reps imo.

Each to is own. In any case the point is that for a proper comparison of ability one has to measure the same things. You don't measure a Proteus buffer tank vs a Mega active tanking or you get nonsense data.


baltec1 wrote:

Your data was a single badly fitted megathron being used for the wrong job vs my three years of flying nothing but megathrons. You have very little experience in BS which shows in your lack of knolage with large weapons, what the hulls can do and which ships are best for what tasks.

You thought it was badly fitted because you're inexperienced with the Mega. Sitting in blobs with a mega doesn't give you experience.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#92 - 2014-01-02 14:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Each to is own. In any case the point is that for a proper comparison of ability one has to measure the same things. You don't measure a Proteus buffer tank vs a Mega active tanking or you get nonsense data.


Yes, true. You do need to measure the same things to be objective. But your simply selecting a small group of things that are baised towards the Proteus. That small group is probably one of the most commonly quoted set of stats, but that is besides the point. The fact it there are an almost infinite list of things you could compare. Many of which the Mega would win on.

Examples;
Can it be immune to warp disruptors (read, can it fit a MJD): Boolean Mega: True Proteus: False
Total EHP when fitting for maximum active tank: Megathron wins
Active tank whilst moving at mav velocity taking into account signiture radius: Proteus wins
Active tank whilst stationary taking into account signiture radius: Mega wins
Range: Mega wins
Speed: Proteus wins.

Also, you can measure a Proteus passive tank against a mega active tank. It gets a lot more complicated but it's entirely possible. I don't have access to EFT for exact figure right now, but you can measure exactly the outcome in maths given the opportune positional situation of each ship. That is, after all, what the game does. A great many stats become irrelevant when you come down to brass taxes. The Proteus's speed and the effect of it's sig on it's tank for example, because it can't operate at it's max speed without allowing the Mega to leave whenever it wants.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2014-01-02 14:05:38 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Battleships are powerful enough, people simply are not using them well

No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).



1v1 is now how you compare ships. Otherwise a tempest can defeat almost any ship smaller than him by sheer power of neuts combined with no cap usage guns. That altoguh doe snto make the temepst less horrible in real applications.

No you dont compare by fightng them you compare by ability.

Lock times

Mega 118 : with sebo 180 : with 2 sebo 270
Brutix 250 : with sebo 400
Thorax 350 : with sebo 550

EHP
Mega 118K
Proteus 135K

DPS
Mega 1000 : applied to cruiser 450
Proteus 900 : applied to cruiser 900

Real comparisons 1 v 1



You mean you eft warrior instead of checking the REAL result of using them?

You clearly do not do PVP.

Try that same proteus agaisnt a Vindicator that is just a tiny bit more ISK. See how well it melts...


"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Deunan Tenephais
#94 - 2014-01-02 14:09:11 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its a problem then because they dont. You would think they'd have the best tank but no they dont. You would think they'd have the best damage but no, they dont. They dont do anything best except. . . Yeah nothing. Even a Domi is beaten at overpwered subcap killing with sentries by carriers lol.

They do have the best tank, period, a standard T1 BS has more shield/armor/hull than a navy BC and usually has more slots for tank modules if needed, and remember that their repair modules rep a good deal more than medium sized ones.
And if they cannot speed tank then they can outrange, knowing that outmaneuvering a foe rests solely in the player's hands, form fitting to piloting.

For the dps part I play mainly with railguns and large rails seem not so good compared to medium; knowing that I don't have full gunnery skills I'm not sure how well they scale with a very high level of skill, I guess the difference between medium and large become more significant even if I can't say from experience.
And I don't use the other offensive systems enough to be well knowledgeable about them, so I won't say anything about them.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2014-01-02 14:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Infinity Ziona wrote:

You thought it was badly fitted because you're inexperienced with the Mega. Sitting in blobs with a mega doesn't give you experience.



Your amazing 60 kills in your career , from wich 16 are pods , 4 barges , 2 rookie ships, 4 industrials, 2 shuttles and 5 frigates do not igve you as well much room to talk about your "EXPERIENCE".


You clearly are very very bad at PVP. Therefore your capability to annalyse what ship is good or not is incredibly limited.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#96 - 2014-01-02 14:15:01 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

You thought it was badly fitted because you're inexperienced with the Mega. Sitting in blobs with a mega doesn't give you experience.


The mega is a gang based ship. It shines with five man gangs to two thousand man fleets and is highly adaptable. You used none of its strengths and threw it into a gang that would have killed any subcap quickly. You chose the wrong ship for the wrong job, fitted it badly and chose the wrong target.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2014-01-02 14:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Oh you silly, isn't it obvious? :)

Men like flying biiiiig, strooooong ships ...... it helps with the ladies......... ;)

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#98 - 2014-01-02 14:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
baltec1 wrote:

The mega is a gang based ship. It shines with five man gangs to two thousand man fleets and is highly adaptable. You used none of its strengths and threw it into a gang that would have killed any subcap quickly. You chose the wrong ship for the wrong job, fitted it badly and chose the wrong target.


The mega really is a pretty terrible small gang BS. Your much better of with a Domi, or (optimally) a Hyperion if your going to 1 vs 1. So Inf really has pitched one of the best solo (I prefer the Legion, but I wouldn't say one were that much better than the other) T3s against (hands down) the worst solo Gallente BS.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#99 - 2014-01-02 14:22:55 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

EHP
Mega 118K
Proteus 135K


Why are you passive tanking a ship that has an innate advantage when active tanking?

Theyre both buffer tanked. You realise the Proteus has a sub for buffer tanking and its tank is bigger than a battleships when fitted correctly. Foolish to active tank a Proteus imo.


Of course, it's worth pointing out that the mega isn't going to be hit with the nerfbat in the near future while the proteus' subs that bring them up to battleship stats almost definitely are.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-01-02 14:24:03 UTC
I think a lot of this debate is around other ships....

I don't really think BS's are too weak.

I think T3's and certain other specific smaller ships (Ishtar comes to mind) are too strong and need to be nerfed.