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Why do people fly BS?

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#181 - 2014-01-03 09:52:20 UTC
Tasiv Deka wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Setting up scenarios to obfuscate the glaring issues is pointless.
So is setting up obscure scenarios to obfuscate the obvious point that all ships are not intended to be equal in all things.

Quote:
Nah I took off Kil2's rails and disruptor and put on ions and a scram. Rax is doing 550 dps. The fact that theres even a question that a T1 Rax can beat or even nearly beat a Rokh is appalling.
…so you can provide those fits then? And how does chewing through 140k+ EHP with 550 DPS “beat or even nearly beat” chewing through 20:ish k EHP with 400 DPS?

Also the rokh can probably have a better local rep.


No probably if you want anything but anemic dps from the thorax then you have to go asb shield fit and even then the thorax cant rep ****

Oh and the Rokh's resist bonus also helps the repping (local and from logistics). Pretty nice ship I guess.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#182 - 2014-01-03 09:52:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its not about 3 cruisers vs 3 battleships. Its about 1 battleships ability vs 1 cruisers ability.

Why are you using a Rokh to compare to a Thorax anyway? Why not something with similar role bonuses like a Megathron, which with dual webs, applies very healthy DPS to a Thorax from 0km-11km.

Oh god.
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#183 - 2014-01-03 10:01:29 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its not about 3 cruisers vs 3 battleships. Its about 1 battleships ability vs 1 cruisers ability.

Why are you using a Rokh to compare to a Thorax anyway? Why not something with similar role bonuses like a Megathron, which with dual webs, applies very healthy DPS to a Thorax from 0km-11km.


Because then Infinity wouldnt be able to manipulate facts to further their false logic

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Diamond Zerg
Taking Solo Away.
#184 - 2014-01-03 10:03:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Diamond Zerg
T2 and T3 cruisers are often used in stationary, straight up fleet situations in place of battleships.
AND the cruisers are more manoeuvrable. This, imo, is imbalanced.

Battleships can't be used that effectively for small gang warfare anymore in many situations (but cruisers can), so I'd say either the mobility of battleships needs a heavy buff, or their straight up resilience/firepower should be buffed to make them better in head on engagements.
Hi.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2014-01-03 10:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its not about 3 cruisers vs 3 battleships. Its about 1 battleships ability vs 1 cruisers ability.

Why are you using a Rokh to compare to a Thorax anyway? Why not something with similar role bonuses like a Megathron, which with dual webs, applies very healthy DPS to a Thorax from 0km-11km.

Because its a random and possible encounter. But mostly because its shows how nerfs (tracking and sig of guns) contribute to completely neuter battleships vs even average opponents like a T1 cruiser.

I think any reasonable person would think that fitting 3 tracking computers and a web in exchange for its tank should allow a battleship to hit a cruiser at any distance (given optimal and falloff are ok). The issue is that modules do not give equal bonuses but diminishing bonuses base on hull size which makes modules for larger hulls with lower ratios almost pointless.

I haven't looked at the ratios but I imagine if you fit a tracking mod on a cruiser you get 2 times what you get if you fit the same mod on a battleship. And if its like sensor boosters and scan res, even fitting 3 tracking mods on a battleship likely gives less tracking boost than one of the same mod on a cruiser.

How is that logical? And for what reason is it even justifiable.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#186 - 2014-01-03 10:06:18 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Because its a random and possible encounter. But mostly because its shows how nerfs (tracking and sig of guns) contribute to completely neuter battleships vs even average opponents like a T1 cruiser.
…except, of course, that the battleship in this scenario is not neutered, and that the T1 cruiser will die horribly.

Quote:
I think any reasonable person would think that fitting 3 tracking computers and a web in exchange for its tank should allow a battleship to hit a cruiser at any distance.
Good news: it does. Well… at any distance up to 2×falloff.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#187 - 2014-01-03 10:10:39 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I think any reasonable person would think that fitting 3 tracking computers and a web in exchange for its tank should allow a battleship to hit a cruiser at any distance.

I think any reasonable person would see where their fit is failing and choose a different strategy to capitalise on the strengths of the ship they are using. If they wanted tracking speed, they'd use a Megathron, not a Rokh.

Oh god.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#188 - 2014-01-03 10:10:42 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its not about 3 cruisers vs 3 battleships. Its about 1 battleships ability vs 1 cruisers ability.

Why are you using a Rokh to compare to a Thorax anyway? Why not something with similar role bonuses like a Megathron, which with dual webs, applies very healthy DPS to a Thorax from 0km-11km.

Because its a random and possible encounter. But mostly because its shows how nerfs (tracking and sig of guns) contribute to completely neuter battleships vs even average opponents like a T1 cruiser.

I think any reasonable person would think that fitting 3 tracking computers and a web in exchange for its tank should allow a battleship to hit a cruiser at any distance (given optimal and falloff are ok). The issue is that modules do not give equal bonuses but diminishing bonuses base on hull size which makes modules for larger hulls with lower ratios almost pointless.

I haven't looked at the ratios but I imagine if you fit a tracking mod on a cruiser you get 2 times what you get if you fit the same mod on a battleship. And if its like sensor boosters and scan res, even fitting 3 tracking mods on a battleship likely gives less tracking boost than one of the same mod on a cruiser.

How is that logical? And for what reason is it even justifiable.



NO! Its NOT possible! Or almost impossible 1 thorax jumping into a solo battleship is infinitely less realistic scenario than 3v3.

Yes this is not about 1v1 or 3v3, thius is about your complete and utter lack of PVP experience or understanding of the game and how people behave in this game!

You are the one theorycrafting! You are the one bringing examples taken from obscure holes!


If your scenario is remotely realistic why you do not have a single kill with a thorax against a solo battleship.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2014-01-03 10:13:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Because its a random and possible encounter. But mostly because its shows how nerfs (tracking and sig of guns) contribute to completely neuter battleships vs even average opponents like a T1 cruiser.
…except, of course, that the battleship in this scenario is not neutered, and that the T1 cruiser will die horribly.

Quote:
I think any reasonable person would think that fitting 3 tracking computers and a web in exchange for its tank should allow a battleship to hit a cruiser at any distance.
Good news: it does. Well… at any distance up to 2×falloff.

Try to keep up Tippia. The graph I posted clearly shows it does not. And with a lock time of around 8 seconds on a MWD Rax, the Rax doing 2.5k p/s the Rax will be within invulnerability range of terrible tracking before the Rokh finishes locking.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Diamond Zerg
Taking Solo Away.
#190 - 2014-01-03 10:15:45 UTC
Plus, remember the lack of tackle the BS has.

A blaster battleship can be easily pointed and kited by a long range cruiser/BC, and even as BS with good damage projection it can be very difficult to get into/maintain scram/point range.
Hi.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2014-01-03 10:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugia3
Woot. An Infinity Ziona thread. Where did I put my beer?

I'm just going to sit and watch this one, rather than join in as usual.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2014-01-03 10:19:28 UTC
Diamond Zerg wrote:
Plus, remember the lack of tackle the BS has.

A blaster battleship can be easily pointed and kited by a long range cruiser/BC, and even as BS with good damage projection it can be very difficult to get into/maintain scram/point range.


Which with the rokh is the thing it can still hit with blasters in disrupt range so it either kills you or you have to disengage

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#193 - 2014-01-03 10:20:08 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Try to keep up Tippia. The graph I posted
…can't be verified without you providing the fits. So I did the next best thing and built something that approached the capabilities shown.

As it happens, such a fit would deal 400–450 DPS to the Thorax at 2k, killing it in, oh, about a minute or so. Compare this to the supposed 550 DPS from The Thorax, which will need 4–5 minutes to chew through the Rokh… assuming it hasn't done the sensible thing for a solo Rokh and gone active-tank, in which case the Thorax won't dent it at all.

Taking 400 DPS is not the same as “invulnerable”, so you Thorax is moving in the wrong direction if that's what he's aiming for…
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#194 - 2014-01-03 10:20:36 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its not about 3 cruisers vs 3 battleships. Its about 1 battleships ability vs 1 cruisers ability.

Why are you using a Rokh to compare to a Thorax anyway? Why not something with similar role bonuses like a Megathron, which with dual webs, applies very healthy DPS to a Thorax from 0km-11km.

Because its a random and possible encounter. But mostly because its shows how nerfs (tracking and sig of guns) contribute to completely neuter battleships vs even average opponents like a T1 cruiser.

I think any reasonable person would think that fitting 3 tracking computers and a web in exchange for its tank should allow a battleship to hit a cruiser at any distance (given optimal and falloff are ok). The issue is that modules do not give equal bonuses but diminishing bonuses base on hull size which makes modules for larger hulls with lower ratios almost pointless.

I haven't looked at the ratios but I imagine if you fit a tracking mod on a cruiser you get 2 times what you get if you fit the same mod on a battleship. And if its like sensor boosters and scan res, even fitting 3 tracking mods on a battleship likely gives less tracking boost than one of the same mod on a cruiser.

How is that logical? And for what reason is it even justifiable.



NO! Its NOT possible! Or almost impossible 1 thorax jumping into a solo battleship is infinitely less realistic scenario than 3v3.

Yes this is not about 1v1 or 3v3, thius is about your complete and utter lack of PVP experience or understanding of the game and how people behave in this game!

You are the one theorycrafting! You are the one bringing examples taken from obscure holes!


If your scenario is remotely realistic why you do not have a single kill with a thorax against a solo battleship.

Lol. Chillax, you'll burst a haemorrhoid.

It is possible. You can yell and scream all you like but the data clearly shows if you had balls you could do it. Why do I have no recent Thorax vs battleship kills. Because there is a distinct lack of BS flying around null and the prevalence of T3, Hac and fast kiting small ships like the pirate cruisers make solo blaster Rax unfun.

Additionally the difficulty in finding any single battleship other than a ratter, although primarily they're using attack BC, without friends make solo blaster ratting unfun.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2014-01-03 10:23:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Try to keep up Tippia. The graph I posted
…can't be verified without you providing the fits. So I did the next best thing and built something that approached the capabilities shown.

As it happens, such a fit would deal 400–450 DPS to the Thorax at 2k, killing it in, oh, about a minute or so. Compare this to the supposed 550 DPS from The Thorax, which will need 4–5 minutes to chew through the Rokh… assuming it hasn't done the sensible thing for a solo Rokh and gone active-tank, in which case the Thorax won't dent it at all.

Taking 400 DPS is not the same as “invulnerable”, so you Thorax is moving in the wrong direction if that's what he's aiming for…

You don't orbit a Rokh at 2k Tippia. You orbit it at 500m. How much dps is it doing at 500 Tippia? 0. You know how I know, because when I was killing Tribals pulse oracles and the nightmare guess what they were hitting me for? 0 :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2014-01-03 10:23:35 UTC
Tasiv Deka wrote:
Diamond Zerg wrote:
Plus, remember the lack of tackle the BS has.

A blaster battleship can be easily pointed and kited by a long range cruiser/BC, and even as BS with good damage projection it can be very difficult to get into/maintain scram/point range.


Which with the rokh is the thing it can still hit with blasters in disrupt range so it either kills you or you have to disengage


If it can track you, that is. Rohk doesn't have tracking bonuses. One TD and you're free to kite him.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#197 - 2014-01-03 10:24:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Try to keep up Tippia. The graph I posted
…can't be verified without you providing the fits. So I did the next best thing and built something that approached the capabilities shown.

As it happens, such a fit would deal 400–450 DPS to the Thorax at 2k, killing it in, oh, about a minute or so. Compare this to the supposed 550 DPS from The Thorax, which will need 4–5 minutes to chew through the Rokh… assuming it hasn't done the sensible thing for a solo Rokh and gone active-tank, in which case the Thorax won't dent it at all.

Taking 400 DPS is not the same as “invulnerable”, so you Thorax is moving in the wrong direction if that's what he's aiming for…


Tippia I always mean to tell you this when i read your posts but i think im in love with you just a little bit...

So much just straight up fact laced with a healthy dose of to the point sarcasm and finished up with a "here is my proof where is yours"

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#198 - 2014-01-03 10:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You don't orbit a Rokh at 2k Tippia. You orbit it at 500m.
So, moving the goalposts now, huh?

Ok. At 500, it does 182 DPS, which kills the poor thing in just over two minutes. Meanwhile, the Thorax still does ~550, and still requires 4–5 minutes (or ∞ minutes).
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#199 - 2014-01-03 10:28:16 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Tasiv Deka wrote:
Diamond Zerg wrote:
Plus, remember the lack of tackle the BS has.

A blaster battleship can be easily pointed and kited by a long range cruiser/BC, and even as BS with good damage projection it can be very difficult to get into/maintain scram/point range.


Which with the rokh is the thing it can still hit with blasters in disrupt range so it either kills you or you have to disengage


If it can track you, that is. Rohk doesn't have tracking bonuses. One TD and you're free to kite him.


Even with a TD the Rokh still has phenomenal tracking... but thats because blasters... now depending on skills 2-3 TDs and yea its going to be more fall off damage if you try to kite and smaller hits if you orbit but with 2-3 TDs on one ship you gimp your fit

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2014-01-03 10:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Diamond Zerg wrote:
Plus, remember the lack of tackle the BS has.

A blaster battleship can be easily pointed and kited by a long range cruiser/BC, and even as BS with good damage projection it can be very difficult to get into/maintain scram/point range.



so.. how your magnificent cruiser can handle this simple thing:

[Armageddon, New Setup 1]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II
Large Micro Jump Drive

Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Garde II x5


Its an extremely simplistic ship. THat In reality would not even fly alone , but for sake of crushign the thorax cruisers are better than battleship.... lets pretend it was solo.

HOW in HELL a thorax would have any chance of killing this? You can put 2 thoraxes if you want.. will not make ANY difference...

here.. another thing I would like you to show me a thorax defeating it:

[Tempest, New Setup 2]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

100MN Afterburner II
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II

Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Ancillary Current Router I

Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2
Hobgoblin II x1

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"