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Intaki Liberated

Author
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#81 - 2014-01-10 16:53:26 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:

I think that's a rather dismissive view of the situation. Not all of us who partake in violence intend to profit off of it. I know I pump any rewards I get for anti-pirate actions into the communities I try to service. People who need the ISK to buy things like water condensers or oxidizers for their settlements.

Pirates have a tendency to raid legitimate non-combatants and then use their goods to fund themselves. Violence may be the great universal constant, but how comfortable you are with that violence compared to how you use the fabulous wealth we capsuleers accrue says more about you.

I think you can be just as much a pirate if you're an otherwise legitimate accountant handling blood money, and that even those wading knee-deep in battle can still be noble warriors for a truly righteous cause. Unfortunately, many capsuleers become inured to their own moral codes and simply succumb to the temptation to nihilism. We shouldn't be without a guiding light in the darkness, otherwise we simply wander in circles, repeating the same actions that didn't solve our problems in the first place.


The best soldiers are perfected in perpetual conflict, Mr. Baracca. You may believe in such things as a righteous cause, fought by noble warriors guided by moral codes and I might say that is an understandable perspective for one who believes in the religious doctrines of the Amarr faith - but your perspective is not my own. I will simply say that for myself there exists no glory, no honour, no justice, no morality and no ethics out here among the stars where I seek to perfect my craft and ply my trade as just another merchant of death. There is no law except that might makes right, and the purpose of violence, conflict, and war is nothing more than violence, conflict, and war itself.

Whereas you may need the guiding light of moral justification for violence - just like so many who embrace saccharine delusions - I turned from it towards my own inner penumbra to come to a simple realization:

I require no justifications.

This is just who I am now, and I being myself, can but only smile at it all now I live an honest life without hypocrisy.


Is there no hypocrisy in that life, Veikitamo? It would seem that once you've started killing others without yourself having a reason for doing so, you've not devalued conflict, but human life. Whatever your justification for fighting, what you've perhaps missed is you've no justification for killing. And you do need that, lest you not become a merchant of death, but a simple slave that has ceased to learn.

I do still need a reason to kill others, when I am forced to, not simply because of my faith as an Amarrian, but because of my place in the universe. Whenever I kill someone, however horrifying they may be, I am taking away someone's son, daughter, aunt, grandparent, friend, wife, et cetera. Everyone is someone in this universe, and to release those safeties is a conscious decision that there is no redemption for them that can be had which would supercede the lives hurt in the interim.

To say that their lives do not matter any more than yours seems to be a religion in and of itself. It certainly seems a higher order of moral relativism than I practice. I've always believed people determine their worthiness in the universe, whether by glory, honor, duty, and all of those other virtues that you perhaps find less meaningful. To say no one is worth anything, and their motivations are all meaningless, is to say that instead of having no faith, you've a very certain and determined faith in nothingness.

Not that such an issue is yours alone, in fact I'd say it's endemic to capsuleers in general. It's difficult to maintain a good moral compass when you suddenly have access to such a massive amount of wealth, power, and ability. I suppose most capsuleers die the nihilistic death of a rock star once they weather under that influence for a while. Humility and humanity are things that need to be constantly upkept in order to not become a simply piloting computer for a battleship. Most capsuleers don't see the point.

It's the tragedy of the condition; we lost our perspective. If I was not so intimately connected to regular human societies, even foreign ones, even I might have lost that. There's no shame in losing the path that took you into the forest and just continuing on in whatever direction you are going. It certainly isn't something I would want to end up doing, or something my family would be proud to see. I may be a bit paranoid about becoming just another capsuleer playing the never-ending game and becoming a cog in the meat processor.

With so much potential, it becomes a catastrophic waste when we are reduced to variably efficient targeting systems for our respective masters.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#82 - 2014-01-10 18:24:56 UTC
Spare me the life lessons, Mr. Baracca.

If you have not seen what I have seen; done what I have done; shed the blood that I have shed then do not presume to pronounce judgement upon me.

As for your belief that I hold nothing of value, while that is your opinion, I might say the fact that I hold my family, my comrades and Kaalakiota dear enough to sacrifice everything I once was, so that indeed I may be the killer I must be might be a concept you fail to understand.

I kill so that others may not have to, and because it's my profession. I just feel no need to pretend that it is somehow glorious, noble, or honourable, it's just that it's simply necessary at times to perform the efficient execution of violence. Nothing more, nothing less.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Natasha Vynneve
The Starry Eyed Mystery
#83 - 2014-01-10 19:04:48 UTC
I think the problem is "pirate" is really a subjective term. You could have the right to engage and seize enemy supplies and such by the Caldari Navy and therefore are doing so legitimately, yet the Federation is still going to label you a pirate.

We capsuleers, for the most part, are in fact privateers. We hire out our services to the highest bidder, or to whomever our ideals mesh with, and in turn get paid for generally inconveniencing some other person or group.

Pirate conjures up the image of scoundrel and freebooter, beholden to no one but themselves. It's use is more a means to sugar-coat and romanticize actions that fly in the face of 'civilized' society and the laws of the land.

"We travel in the dark of the new moon, a starry highway traced on the map of the sky. Like lovers and heroes, lonely as the eagle's cry, we're only at home when we're on the fly." -Dreamline

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#84 - 2014-01-10 22:12:10 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Spare me the life lessons, Mr. Baracca.

If you have not seen what I have seen; done what I have done; shed the blood that I have shed then do not presume to pronounce judgement upon me.

As for your belief that I hold nothing of value, while that is your opinion, I might say the fact that I hold my family, my comrades and Kaalakiota dear enough to sacrifice everything I once was, so that indeed I may be the killer I must be might be a concept you fail to understand.

I kill so that others may not have to, and because it's my profession. I just feel no need to pretend that it is somehow glorious, noble, or honourable, it's just that it's simply necessary at times to perform the efficient execution of violence. Nothing more, nothing less.


One thing you're going to find is that we'll all be judged, as you will undoubtedly judge me and everyone else, they will have already judged you. That's not something you can avoid or ask to present new evidence over. We have seen you do what we have seen you do, seen the blood you've shed, and then heard your reasons. You cannot then tell us what we are to think about it because we somehow do not have the precise context you wish those actions to be seen from.

The concept that you are beyond understanding is usually fundamentally flawed. People are often quite capable of understanding what someone is talking about, they may just not buy what you're selling. One of those things we're taught early on in evangelical studies is that you don't get to start preaching at the point of zero very often. You're starting from negative connotations early on and have to prove your value and goodness.

It's very, very easy to give up and say that other people's misunderstandings and disagreements are invalid. You always need to be prepared to be wrong or to explain better. Probably not something you associate with my faith, but it is pounded into a cleric's head from an early age. Judgement isn't just a divine mandate you'll face at the end of days, judgement is something you will deal with all of your life and over every single action you'll ever take. Everyone will judge you, you'll judge everyone, and we'll all inwardly judge ourselves.

Given that your self-reference to make sure no one else needs to go through what you've gone through isn't exactly positive, I already have an idea of how you really judge yourself. There is a difference between feeling unjudgable and turning away to not confront it. You'll judge yourself everyday.

Oddly, you judge yourself more harshly than I would. I wouldn't call you a cheat or a thief. I've never heard of you flying into a civilian transport and randomly killing him to steal his goods. I've never heard of you flaying the skin of your enemy open and hanging him from the rigging on the roof of your captain's quarters, hooked up to life support so that you know he can hang with his entrails like a dangling chandelier for a week. Trust me, as bad as you think you've seen things, I've seen worse. Much worse.

I suppose your assumption that I've not seen or dealt with bloodshed on the level you're involved in is something of a complement. I'm not sure that it's necessarily true, I can't claim to be any manner of pacifist saint, but it's nice to know that even you think I haven't. Than, in and of itself, is a judgement of my character, and I suppose something that means I haven't lost that humanity yet.

Simply put, you aren't a pirate even in your description of yourself and couldn't even be thought to be one. You seem to involve yourself in combat. I wouldn't call preying on the weak and innocent, such as civilian shipping captains trying to make enough to feed their families, combat. I just assumed you weren't involved in the sort of random theft of non-military assets that constitutes one.

The Angel Cartel is, and Stillwater is the facade of their house. Hence, pirates. I'm not sure what sliding scale we can judge people to be pirates by, but I'm fairly sure that smuggling illegal goods and killing any law enforcement or civilian personnel that get in the way counts. I don't feel any sense of moral confusion thinking that the Angels are most definitely a criminal organization and I don't think it's a merely political gesture that I don't think they should be permitted to prey on the weak and unsuspecting in the cluster. I most certainly wouldn't work for them and I'd certainly assume anyone affiliated with them was operating on behalf of those criminal enterprises.

If that makes me overly judgmental, I suppose I'll live with that.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#85 - 2014-01-11 17:04:01 UTC
Mr. Baracca, to perhaps put it simply: I recognize that in matters related to violence I inhabit a glass house and as such feel no need to throw the stones of accusation at others labeled with, "Pirate".

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#86 - 2014-01-11 18:13:11 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Mr. Baracca, to perhaps put it simply: I recognize that in matters related to violence I inhabit a glass house and as such feel no need to throw the stones of accusation at others labeled with, "Pirate".


If that's how you feel about it. If it's any consolation, the current CEWPA war isn't your baby. It was started by politicians, it can only be ended by politicians, and right now they see fit to keep a mandatory pipeline of resources and manpower to waste in that war. It isn't even a waste you or the Gallente can avoid. The CEWPA is a forced war, because no one side can stop without losing all of that territory and perhaps losing even more. So capsuleers are essentially being forced to ferry men and supplies to that war to lose.

What would any capsuleer do? Even if all the fighting stopped tomorrow, the war would STILL be going on because it isn't in place due to necessity, but by legislation. You could all stop fighting, and one stray patriot could essentially turn the place into a graveyard. You really HAVE to be out there, as do the Gallente. There's nothing to be done for it until the actual CEWPA warzone is declared high-security.

Piracy, in my definition, would be someone who goes into otherwise peaceful space and kills non-combatants to steal their things. Unless you've got some more interesting sidelines outside of the warzone that I'm not aware of, you don't really fit the bill. For the most part, your targets are at least armed vessels in a place that's literally been declared a no-go zone unless you're braving gunfire. There's a reason I don't go anywhere near the warzones, after all. They've got a nice legislated sign that says those areas are the places where men and equipment goes to die.

If you're worried about hypocrisy, then perhaps your apprehension is understandable. While at one point I might have been more judgmental, one of your compatriots made the good point that the CEWPA is a place where good men are dying to keep a bad situation from becoming worse. Even if the combatants think the warzone is a worthless forever war that has no upside for anyone involved, it's unfortunately not in their hands to stop. All they can do is to try and limit the damage and follow the rules until a few people in a position of authority give them something more constructive to do.

So even if you and the common pirate are both in the rather general business of shooting at other ships, I wouldn't say you fit the definition of a pirate. May it remain so, though I suppose it's easy to lose that sense of duty after shooting at the skilled for so long. Eventually, maybe a pirate is just a former soldier who decided to stop shooting at things the provide resistance for nebulous concepts like honor and duty, instead deciding to shoot at easy targets to make the more corporeal ISK.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#87 - 2014-01-12 00:25:45 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:

So even if you and the common pirate are both in the rather general business of shooting at other ships, I wouldn't say you fit the definition of a pirate. May it remain so, though I suppose it's easy to lose that sense of duty after shooting at the skilled for so long. Eventually, maybe a pirate is just a former soldier who decided to stop shooting at things the provide resistance for nebulous concepts like honor and duty, instead deciding to shoot at easy targets to make the more corporeal ISK.


Perhaps you may not believe I am a pirate, but I do not think I am a soldier either. Just as an artist feels the need to paint; a singer to sing; or a poet to pen a stanza; then so must I kill. Violence is my form of expression and in it is found my emotional release and fulfillment. I fight for no other reason than the combat being the full and total realization of who I am. I do not need reasons or justifications to partake in a life of violence, death and destruction because for myself they are the ends in themselves and all else is just the means.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#88 - 2014-01-12 01:23:30 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:

So even if you and the common pirate are both in the rather general business of shooting at other ships, I wouldn't say you fit the definition of a pirate. May it remain so, though I suppose it's easy to lose that sense of duty after shooting at the skilled for so long. Eventually, maybe a pirate is just a former soldier who decided to stop shooting at things the provide resistance for nebulous concepts like honor and duty, instead deciding to shoot at easy targets to make the more corporeal ISK.


Perhaps you may not believe I am a pirate, but I do not think I am a soldier either. Just as an artist feels the need to paint; a singer to sing; or a poet to pen a stanza; then so must I kill. Violence is my form of expression and in it is found my emotional release and fulfillment. I fight for no other reason than the combat being the full and total realization of who I am. I do not need reasons or justifications to partake in a life of violence, death and destruction because for myself they are the ends in themselves and all else is just the means.



Winds, would you stop trying to be clever?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#89 - 2014-01-12 01:28:45 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:

So even if you and the common pirate are both in the rather general business of shooting at other ships, I wouldn't say you fit the definition of a pirate. May it remain so, though I suppose it's easy to lose that sense of duty after shooting at the skilled for so long. Eventually, maybe a pirate is just a former soldier who decided to stop shooting at things the provide resistance for nebulous concepts like honor and duty, instead deciding to shoot at easy targets to make the more corporeal ISK.


Perhaps you may not believe I am a pirate, but I do not think I am a soldier either. Just as an artist feels the need to paint; a singer to sing; or a poet to pen a stanza; then so must I kill. Violence is my form of expression and in it is found my emotional release and fulfillment. I fight for no other reason than the combat being the full and total realization of who I am. I do not need reasons or justifications to partake in a life of violence, death and destruction because for myself they are the ends in themselves and all else is just the means.



Winds, would you stop trying to be clever?

Seconded.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#90 - 2014-01-12 03:35:13 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:

So even if you and the common pirate are both in the rather general business of shooting at other ships, I wouldn't say you fit the definition of a pirate. May it remain so, though I suppose it's easy to lose that sense of duty after shooting at the skilled for so long. Eventually, maybe a pirate is just a former soldier who decided to stop shooting at things the provide resistance for nebulous concepts like honor and duty, instead deciding to shoot at easy targets to make the more corporeal ISK.


Perhaps you may not believe I am a pirate, but I do not think I am a soldier either. Just as an artist feels the need to paint; a singer to sing; or a poet to pen a stanza; then so must I kill. Violence is my form of expression and in it is found my emotional release and fulfillment. I fight for no other reason than the combat being the full and total realization of who I am. I do not need reasons or justifications to partake in a life of violence, death and destruction because for myself they are the ends in themselves and all else is just the means.



Winds, would you stop trying to be clever?


You're mistaking cleverness for honesty.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#91 - 2014-01-12 03:38:54 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:

So even if you and the common pirate are both in the rather general business of shooting at other ships, I wouldn't say you fit the definition of a pirate. May it remain so, though I suppose it's easy to lose that sense of duty after shooting at the skilled for so long. Eventually, maybe a pirate is just a former soldier who decided to stop shooting at things the provide resistance for nebulous concepts like honor and duty, instead deciding to shoot at easy targets to make the more corporeal ISK.


Perhaps you may not believe I am a pirate, but I do not think I am a soldier either. Just as an artist feels the need to paint; a singer to sing; or a poet to pen a stanza; then so must I kill. Violence is my form of expression and in it is found my emotional release and fulfillment. I fight for no other reason than the combat being the full and total realization of who I am. I do not need reasons or justifications to partake in a life of violence, death and destruction because for myself they are the ends in themselves and all else is just the means.



If that's the case, you've chosen a very specific method to express that urge. Most of the serial killers I've met haven't had any bother of their employers; their specificity is almost entirely based on their choice of victim. I've always thought the soldier is someone who serves a combat role on the behalf of (and for the ultimate good of) a group of civilians. That seems to be what you're engaged in. If I were to say you were nothing but a killer, you've made it more difficult for yourself simply by specializing.

Not that I think you should disengage from your duties and go skewering random unsuspecting people throughout the cluster, believe me when I say I prefer you not to be a wandering force of murderous nature.

If it was really the case that you're an instrument of death and nothing else, your own compatriots would stand a better chance of dying than your enemies, simply due to their exposure to you. The fact that you aren't killing everything in sight says there's probably a bit more to you than, "I kill people."

Maybe, "I'm good at killing people and I don't think that's something to be elated about" is more where you're going? Certainly just because you aren't a pirate or a serial killer doesn't mean you need to be particularly pleased that you have something in common with them. It isn't unnatural to find killing people distasteful. Indeed, that's what generally separates a decent soldier from the criminally insane. Perhaps it's a fine line to walk between being a good soldier and being a good fiend. Part of that is simply doing what you have to do and being proud of having done the job, not how many men and women you turn into orbital chunks of frozen meat.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#92 - 2014-01-14 18:31:37 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:

Maybe, "I'm good at killing people and I don't think that's something to be elated about" is more where you're going? Certainly just because you aren't a pirate or a serial killer doesn't mean you need to be particularly pleased that you have something in common with them. It isn't unnatural to find killing people distasteful. Indeed, that's what generally separates a decent soldier from the criminally insane. Perhaps it's a fine line to walk between being a good soldier and being a good fiend. Part of that is simply doing what you have to do and being proud of having done the job, not how many men and women you turn into orbital chunks of frozen meat.


There's a saying about how if you must tell the truth, make sure it's in the form of a joke lest your audience try to kill you for telling it. I suppose I'm just not a comedian enough to provide the typical rationalization-justification complexes to alleviate potential guilt associated with taking human life. Or it may be I've just lived an entire life in the past year of combat, that in order to survive and remain functional, I've had to deaden my normal senses.

I don't think it matters much in the end. I'm not a soldier, and I wouldn't ever wish to besmirch the profession by calling what I do, soldiering.

I just do what I feel is necessary for my company and my people while recognizing that the life I lead is a complex one full of difficult questions that don't deserve simple answers such as calling one side or another as pirates.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#93 - 2014-01-14 19:03:59 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:

Maybe, "I'm good at killing people and I don't think that's something to be elated about" is more where you're going? Certainly just because you aren't a pirate or a serial killer doesn't mean you need to be particularly pleased that you have something in common with them. It isn't unnatural to find killing people distasteful. Indeed, that's what generally separates a decent soldier from the criminally insane. Perhaps it's a fine line to walk between being a good soldier and being a good fiend. Part of that is simply doing what you have to do and being proud of having done the job, not how many men and women you turn into orbital chunks of frozen meat.


There's a saying about how if you must tell the truth, make sure it's in the form of a joke lest your audience try to kill you for telling it. I suppose I'm just not a comedian enough to provide the typical rationalization-justification complexes to alleviate potential guilt associated with taking human life. Or it may be I've just lived an entire life in the past year of combat, that in order to survive and remain functional, I've had to deaden my normal senses.

I don't think it matters much in the end. I'm not a soldier, and I wouldn't ever wish to besmirch the profession by calling what I do, soldiering.

I just do what I feel is necessary for my company and my people while recognizing that the life I lead is a complex one full of difficult questions that don't deserve simple answers such as calling one side or another as pirates.


Maybe, and there may certainly be some gray area. I wouldn't put the Angel Cartel in it, though.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26