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Manufacturing/Production Rant!
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Gronn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-11-07 14:23:10 UTC
I think I’m missing something here with respect to manufacturing as career path in Eve. I assumed that most people purchased their ore if they are seriously trying to make money as a production person. But I don’t see how they are making a profit. I own a few BPO’s for ships and other random crap, but I’m befuddled because I can’t even compete against people in my region. It costs me about 30 million to make a Drake and 50 million to make a Noctis based on the current mineral prices. I’ve seen Drakes being sold for 20 million and the Noctis’ for 45 million.

Do people not account for inflation in the current mineral market? I understand that a lot of people mine to offset some of their costs, but I don’t see any reason to lose money on a transaction.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-11-07 14:54:57 UTC
A few things to look at.

1) Skills - production efficiency V is a must.
2) BPOs - make sure they are researched so you minimize waste

Those two alone will decrease your base costs by 20%

3) Know your markets - You don't buy a BPO and then think of making profit. You look at where there is a profit and then you get the BPO.

4) Welcome to the minerals I mine are free syndrome - some people will price their ships below mineral prices because they can.


And btw there is normally some lag between fluctuations in the mineral market and fluctuations in the T1 market.
Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
#3 - 2011-11-07 14:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Arana Mirelin
I think there may be one of a few possibilities here.

  1. Other people manufacturing the same goods follow the MIMAF school.
  2. Your production efficiency is not at 5
  3. Using a ME 0 Blueprint.

With my PE skill at 5, I see the cost of minerals for a drake at about 32 million with a ME0 BPO. With ME 5, it drops to 29.5 million (roughly).

For the most part, unless you find a *very* hot market, you will lose a small percentage if using unresearched BPOs. Put a couple weeks of material research into them, and that will often turn to a profit. I'm thinking this might be more the issue than 1 or 2, but I won't discount that MIMAF has worked its way up to battlecruiser sized ships now.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#4 - 2011-11-07 14:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
First, what is the ME of your Noctis and Drake BPO's? Based on Jita prices, it is about 32mil to make a drake with 0 ME and 52mil for a Noctis with ME 0. Drakes with ME 20 are 29mil and Noctis with ME 20 is 48mil.

Second, do you have Production Efficiency 5? If not, this is a must to compete with these margins.

Third, are you buying and selling near a trade or mission hub? Many will buy in Jita and take to hubs to manufacture and sell because they can get the volumes they need or maybe for price differences.

Other than that, you realize that you are selling two of the most popular ships in the game right? If it's popular, then others are probably going to jump on them too. The profit margins for those ships are pretty low. (Someone will undoubtedly post here that it's due to 'minerals I mine are free' people, but I don't buy that argument - the volumes on these ships is too high for that to have an effect).

Manufacturing is more about knowing the market than anything else. You need to do a bit of research to determine what makes better isk and also understand the demand for certain items. I would get one of the many industry programs or spreadsheets out there to use for analyzing what is good to produce for your area and skills. Check the sticky in this forum for suggestions. Mine is in my sig if you are interested.

Hope that helps.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#5 - 2011-11-07 17:16:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Don't feel bad. I only clear about 10 M profit on T2 Transports. Not worth the trouble to make for the little speck of ISK.

The problem is the owners of T2 BPO's. Those can be researched down to nothing, while the rest of us are dependent on Decryptors for any kind of efficiency.

The owner's of the T2 BPO wil ALWAYS be able to sell at what is to us, a loss. Always.

Keep a Cargo Scanner handy, and when you see a T2 BPO being moved around, PLEASE pop that ship.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Velicitia
XS Tech
#6 - 2011-11-07 17:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Don't feel bad. I only clear about 10 M profit on T2 Transports. Not worth the trouble to make for the little speck of ISK.

The problem is the owners of T2 BPO's. Those can be researched down to nothing, while the rest of us are dependent on Decryptors for any kind of efficiency.

The owner's of the T2 BPO wil ALWAYS be able to sell at what is to us, a loss. Always.

Keep a Cargo Scanner handy, and when you see a T2 BPO being moved around, PLEASE pop that ship.


you do realise that

1. not every T2 item has an associated BPO
2. Invention can throw out a lot more stuff than the handful of BPO owners

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#7 - 2011-11-07 17:29:55 UTC
Roll
Velicitia wrote:

1. not every T2 item has an associated BPO
2. Invention can throw out a lot more stuff than the handful of BPO owners




ALL T2 SHIP Variants HAVE T2 BPO's. We are not talking about piddling modules here, where that is a 'best of luck' proposition at best.

Sorry, but this issue has beenn pounded into the ground ever SINCE the T2 BPO Lottery, and IS confirmed as the issue here with ME.

Learn the history of the game before posting nonsense with the sole intent to do nothing but DE-RAIL. May as well post a pony or something . Roll

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Velicitia
XS Tech
#8 - 2011-11-07 17:55:02 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Roll
Velicitia wrote:

1. not every T2 item has an associated BPO
2. Invention can throw out a lot more stuff than the handful of BPO owners




ALL T2 SHIP Variants HAVE T2 BPO's. We are not talking about piddling modules here, where that is a 'best of luck' proposition at best.

Sorry, but this issue has beenn pounded into the ground ever SINCE the T2 BPO Lottery, and IS confirmed as the issue here with ME.

Learn the history of the game before posting nonsense with the sole intent to do nothing but DE-RAIL. May as well post a pony or something . Roll




PREVIOUS CORPORATION(S)
(stuff)
Federal Navy Academy [FNA] from 2010.03.23 10:22 to 2010.05.05 05:53.


vs

PREVIOUS CORPORATION(S)
(stuff)
Center for Advanced Studies [CAS] from 2007.05.19 18:33 to 2007.06.02 22:01.


perhaps one shouldn't be so quick to say that another knows nothing about the game's history?


Anyway, you cannot change the argument to "but I just meant ships!" after someone says something.

Yeah, the T2 ships have a few BPOs floating around... has there been confirmation of how many are in use for a particular model as compared to how many of that ship are generated?

I mean, seriously ... a single player with a hulk BPO can't make more than 30 in a month (more likey 28 or so) because of the build time (26 hours).

so, even if our builder is able to squeeze a few extra million out of the manufacturing than you can per ship ... you can run approximately 11 hulks for every one of his (give or take). For stupid numbers, let's say a hulk profits 10m from invention. Do you want 10m ISK/unit (and sell 300+), or 15 m ISK/unit and sell 30?



One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-11-07 18:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyniac
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
ALL T2 SHIP Variants HAVE T2 BPO's. We are not talking about piddling modules here, where that is a 'best of luck' proposition at best.


Don't confuse things - we are talking about T1 production here. For the record, you are wrong.

Electronic Attack Ships
Heavy Interdiction Cruisers
Jump Freighters
Marauders
Black Ops

All disagree with you - None of these ships have T2 BPOs.

Zifrian wrote:
(Someone will undoubtedly post here that it's due to 'minerals I mine are free' people, but I don't buy that argument - the volumes on these ships is too high for that to have an effect).


Might as well be me. (Actually already did it in my first post)

This is a real effect though I have come to believe that it is a little bit more nuanced over time. It is not only "the minerals I mine are free" but also the "if I make a ship I can sell my minerals faster" effect. Either way there are a lot of producers which make items (ships especially) below market production costs. You don't need all producers doing this to drive down the value of an item of course (you just need to have more producers than the current demand) and it really does correlate to hitting high volume items.

In any case it's a real pitfall for those who are starting manufacturing, they think hey I'll buy a Drake BPC because Drakes are popular so demand must be high? (Not a bad assumption) to realise that they are Drake producer 35,603 and that Drakes actually sell for below mineral costs... (NB: Using Drakes here as an example, don't be lazy and check your own markets!).
General Sauron
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-11-07 19:11:51 UTC
You do realize that you can reprocess items?

If drakes are being made and sold below the cost of the minerals required to produce them, do the following.

1. Buy drakes
2. Reprocess drakes (You can reprocess for zero waste if you have the standings and skills)
3. Sell minerals for profit.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#11 - 2011-11-07 19:19:18 UTC
General Sauron wrote:
You do realize that you can reprocess items?

If drakes are being made and sold below the cost of the minerals required to produce them, do the following.

1. Buy drakes
2. Reprocess drakes (You can reprocess for zero waste if you have the standings and skills)
3. Sell minerals for profit.


this, though I prefer step three being "build something else" and adding a fourth step (profit).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Gronn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-11-07 19:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Gronn
General Sauron wrote:
You do realize that you can reprocess items?

If drakes are being made and sold below the cost of the minerals required to produce them, do the following.

1. Buy drakes
2. Reprocess drakes (You can reprocess for zero waste if you have the standings and skills)
3. Sell minerals for profit.


I thought that you always took a small loss from reprocessing of an item. Oh well, I've been playing this game for years but only just started messing around with manufacturing. I have Scrapmetal Processing at 4 not 5, I guess I need to bump that up to 5.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#13 - 2011-11-07 20:16:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Gronn wrote:
General Sauron wrote:
You do realize that you can reprocess items?

If drakes are being made and sold below the cost of the minerals required to produce them, do the following.

1. Buy drakes
2. Reprocess drakes (You can reprocess for zero waste if you have the standings and skills)
3. Sell minerals for profit.


I thought that you always took a small loss from reprocessing of an item. Oh well, I've been playing this game for years but only just started messing around with manufacturing. I have Scrapmetal Processing at 4 not 5, I guess I need to bump that up to 5.



*technically* you will have a small loss... on the order of whatever the incurred loss was based on the producer's skills.

What I mean is, let's say we have an item that needs 10k units of trit.
The producer only has P.E. 4, and an unresearched BPO. He has 15% waste on the run, requiring 11500 Trit.
Same producer at PE 5 has 10% waste (1100 trit)
Same producer at PE 5 and ME 20 has somewhere around 0.5% waste (1005 trit).

Refining works the other way, the maths start at the item's base (in this case 10k), and inefficiencies are calculated from that.
so 5% tax means you're getting 950 units of Trit.

however, at maximum skills/standings (100% refine, and 0% tax) that "loss" is only the difference between the manufacturer's (lack of) efficiency, and the base requirements of the BPO.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#14 - 2011-11-07 22:41:52 UTC
In general, unless the module/ship is selling for at least 3-5% below what it would cost to build it using today's sell prices for the components, it's rather risky to try the "buy / reprocess" method. (Keep in mind broker fees, sales taxes and daily market fluctuations in mineral prices.)

The farther that you can buy it below that point, the better luck that you'll have making a profit from reprocessing.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#15 - 2011-11-08 13:52:06 UTC
Cyniac wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
ALL T2 SHIP Variants HAVE T2 BPO's. We are not talking about piddling modules here, where that is a 'best of luck' proposition at best.


Don't confuse things - we are talking about T1 production here. For the record, you are wrong.

Electronic Attack Ships
Heavy Interdiction Cruisers
Jump Freighters
Marauders
Black Ops

All disagree with you - None of these ships have T2 BPOs.




So what if they don't ?????? That does NOT change the fact that those WITH T2 BPO's do HAVE an advantage in Material Efficiency. Do you guys understand researching M.E. ???


These forums are useless.......................................

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#16 - 2011-11-08 13:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
The issue is about 6 months ago it cost about 75,000,000 ISK in 'Parts' from Jita to build a Crane that would sell for maybe 89,000,000 in Dodixie. Those with the Crane BPO's can research and get that 'parts' cost down to around 50,000,000. So yes, they CAN sell for profit at 75,000,000 which is MY cost at Maximim M E using COSTLY Decryptors that further eat into the profit.

Manufacturing is just a large waste of time for such little ISK, especially with T2 Ships because of the BPO problem.

I make TONS more ISK from making POS parts.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#17 - 2011-11-08 14:05:54 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
2. Invention can throw out a lot more stuff than the handful of BPO owners




They make and distribute tons of COPIES of those Researched T2 BPO's.

THINK !

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#18 - 2011-11-08 14:08:08 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
[Anyway, you cannot change the argument to "but I just meant ships!" after someone says something.





I didn't. Please read the OP before SNARKING.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
#19 - 2011-11-08 14:25:04 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
2. Invention can throw out a lot more stuff than the handful of BPO owners




They make and distribute tons of COPIES of those Researched T2 BPO's.

THINK !


It takes longer to make one copy from a T2 BPO than to manufacture one run from it.
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
#20 - 2011-11-08 14:34:44 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
2. Invention can throw out a lot more stuff than the handful of BPO owners




They make and distribute tons of COPIES of those Researched T2 BPO's.

THINK !

This shows quite well, that YOU have no clue about this topic: the copy time of T2 BPOs if so ridiculous that nobody in his right mind would do that!

Just to make sure you understand: it takes 17 hours to produce a Prowler from a BPO, but it takes 40 hours for a freaking 1-run copy!
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