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[Development] CCP Welcome to the Mobile Era In Gaming
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#21 - 2014-01-02 12:23:39 UTC
Ice Dealer wrote:
Almost a whole year ago, I posted this: Updating game interaction: The New Frontier ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2517791#post2517791 )

A whole year, and nothing.

I would like for you to consider the following. Perhaps the business people at CCP could see this and put the two together.

Step 1. Hire/Contract 2 people who are Android Devs. Cost: 2x $100,000 USD for a years salary, plus 20% in benefits and other expenses. Total Costs: $220,000. There are many VERY good programmers that exist that would be willing to take a 100k salary to do this project. Pick two good ones that are qualified.

Step 2. Using Extreme Programming Practices ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_programming_practices ) (an Agile software development methodology ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development )), develop the following Android App:

This app would support the following, and in order of waterfall ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model ) priority:

1. Make the app secure. (If I can do online banking with an app, I should be able to do eve related stuff with far less security)
2. Be able to update Skill Ques of your characters.
3. Have a built in Skill Planning Program. (there are already several examples of community projects, such as EveMon: http://evemon.battleclinic.com/)
4. Be able to view the market, and update orders.
5. Search, create, manage, Contracts.
6. Access a mobile version of these forums.
7. View and manage personal assets.
8. Create a ship fitting tool. (there are already several examples of community projects, such as EFT (Eve fitting Tool: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359)
9. Utilize any in-game chat channels. This includes evemails, local chat, alliance chat etc.
10. Ask the community for further development ideas (such as POS tracker, an autopilot function, whatever the community votes for)

Step 3. Sell Product: Have a 2 week free trial, so people get to try before they buy it. Sell an Android app, for $10 USD OR 1 Plex for a lifetime subscription. To recover the original investment of $220,000 USD, you would need to sell 22,000 licences.
Considering that you have somewhere in the neighborhood of 400,000 active subscriptions, you would only need 5.5% of your user-base to purchase this product. This would not include an increase in active subscriptions which may very well happen. Also, an increase in the average "Users Subscription" duration could be achieved. Your marketing department will be able to go over all the possible scenarios.

This entire project should take no longer then 6 months from design to first implementation. Using waterfall lets you implement features as the are created (and immediately launch the product updates), rather then waiting until a fully implemented product is fully created. This is very helpful to gather feedback and confirm product viability.

Here's the bottom line.

Invest a small amount of money, 0.3% of GAR (400,000 active subscriptions, * $15 * 12 months a year = $72,000,000 Gross Annual Revenue), to enhance your user product and gain additional long-term revenues.
First off, it's not really GAR, it's a one off income source. People would only pay once, not annually based on what you've stated.

Secondly you've not taken into account any type of support costs. Mobile development is a tricky beast, and constantly changing mobile operating systems and operator customisations mean that apps require ongoing support. You would need to retain at least one dev and some support staff (though you could add this to the existing support but would likely need an increase it FTE) to support the app.

Then you've also got the market. Not everyone has an android phone, so your market is being restricted to those that do. It's then further restricted to those who are able to use an online app, as carriers vary in their mobile data usage, especially when you consider eve is distributed to an international market. All in all your target market of 400k subscribers will reduce heavily when you eliminate alts, then further when taking into account all of the above. Naturally you won't hit 100% sales with your target market either.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Ice Dealer
Ice Dealer Corporation
#22 - 2014-01-02 18:03:10 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
First off, it's not really GAR, it's a one off income source. People would only pay once, not annually based on what you've stated.

Secondly you've not taken into account any type of support costs. Mobile development is a tricky beast, and constantly changing mobile operating systems and operator customisations mean that apps require ongoing support. You would need to retain at least one dev and some support staff (though you could add this to the existing support but would likely need an increase it FTE) to support the app.

Then you've also got the market. Not everyone has an android phone, so your market is being restricted to those that do. It's then further restricted to those who are able to use an online app, as carriers vary in their mobile data usage, especially when you consider eve is distributed to an international market. All in all your target market of 400k subscribers will reduce heavily when you eliminate alts, then further when taking into account all of the above. Naturally you won't hit 100% sales with your target market either.


True,

Overall I believe a lot of customers would enjoy and benefit from it. As well as game-play itself. Even if all the app did was allow skill changing and chat, it would be something that almost every user that also owned an Android would use. Generally the eve community seems quite tech savvy. It would be interesting to know how many have smart phones of some kind.
Also, the developer CCP could hire, could do other things besides the app after deployment, depending on workload.
Ice Dealer
Ice Dealer Corporation
#23 - 2014-01-02 18:07:48 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
"OP" wrote:
develop the following Android App:


And what about Windows Phone users? Or even iOS (tho I couldn't care less about them)? I don't plan having an Android phone at all in the near, middle and distant future, let alone buying one and have yet another real-life money draining contract just for such a EVE app. Roll

Which would immediately prove another post in the thread that it is just not feasible to develop such an app if it isn't accessible for everyone. Blink


Well, Android is quite popular, and at some point it's more cost efficient to create for the more used device.
However, there is a solution.
Create a web interface rather then an app. Have it so EveGate does the work. That way anyone, on any device, in any browser, can benefit.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#24 - 2014-01-02 18:39:51 UTC
Ice Dealer wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
"OP" wrote:
develop the following Android App:


And what about Windows Phone users? Or even iOS (tho I couldn't care less about them)? I don't plan having an Android phone at all in the near, middle and distant future, let alone buying one and have yet another real-life money draining contract just for such a EVE app. Roll

Which would immediately prove another post in the thread that it is just not feasible to develop such an app if it isn't accessible for everyone. Blink


Well, Android is quite popular, and at some point it's more cost efficient to create for the more used device.
However, there is a solution.
Create a web interface rather then an app. Have it so EveGate does the work. That way anyone, on any device, in any browser, can benefit.


It is popular, but not the only OS out there. Cost efficiency cannot be a reason to limit apps to one OS anymore, after the entire world and a dog despised Windows for its monopoly. We have 3 or 4 major mobile OS and if such an app was created, it would have to be for those 3 or 4.

Regarding the web interface I remember that devs talked about more functionality for EVEGate with further development of CREST. FF2012 iirc. But ever since not much has come to the public light.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Ice Dealer
Ice Dealer Corporation
#25 - 2014-01-02 18:46:32 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Ice Dealer wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
"OP" wrote:
develop the following Android App:


And what about Windows Phone users? Or even iOS (tho I couldn't care less about them)? I don't plan having an Android phone at all in the near, middle and distant future, let alone buying one and have yet another real-life money draining contract just for such a EVE app. Roll

Which would immediately prove another post in the thread that it is just not feasible to develop such an app if it isn't accessible for everyone. Blink


Well, Android is quite popular, and at some point it's more cost efficient to create for the more used device.
However, there is a solution.
Create a web interface rather then an app. Have it so EveGate does the work. That way anyone, on any device, in any browser, can benefit.


It is popular, but not the only OS out there. Cost efficiency cannot be a reason to limit apps to one OS anymore, after the entire world and a dog despised Windows for its monopoly. We have 3 or 4 major mobile OS and if such an app was created, it would have to be for those 3 or 4.

Regarding the web interface I remember that devs talked about more functionality for EVEGate with further development of CREST. FF2012 iirc. But ever since not much has come to the public light.


That was a little over a year ago now. http://themittani.com/news/ccp-announces-new-dev-licenses-crest-api-beta
and http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/73971

Other then changing standings, not much seems to have been done.
Toxic Raioin
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-01-02 23:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Toxic Raioin
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ice Dealer wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

then you would not be playing the game as it was made to be playeed. Peopel taht play docked are EXCEPTIOn they are NOT the rule.


How much of your game time do you spend docked vs in space?
Try docking and seeing what % of local is docked at any given time.

Though, being docked is not the same thing as a mobile application that helps use the product.

Also, I have created software solutions that are older then 10 years. I have managed software teams for 16 years now. Because I hire, I know how much going wages are. At least in the US.
Quote:
1. Mobile applications developer
2012 salary range: $85,000-$122,500
2013 salary range: $92,750-$133,500
Net: 9% increase
Source: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/110712-it-salaries-2013-264063.html

EDIT: Also, Glassdoor is a very good reference as well: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/android-developer-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm




Then you have no idea about he reality of game development. Game developers are almsot alwasy udnerpaid because they work on a COOL stuff..

You can find professionals that work for 25k per year with far more experience and knowledge than needed to do this application you suggest. I know.. because I select those people.. and they are so plenetiful that only someone completely out of touch would pay 100k for a developer for somethign so meaningles as this app you suggest.

Company I work made something far far more complex than this as a mobile app that handles a much more complex system for professioanl usage on a very sensitive professional area(sorry cannto give precise info because woudl be a breach of rules) . Made far more money in 4 months than you suggest your app woudl do in a year.. and spent less than 50K $ to develop it.

Also.. why in hell they would pay US level salaries? Continue hiring overpaid US developers.. that is surely the best way to make competitive products.


How does it feel to be a modern slaver?
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#27 - 2014-01-04 09:25:44 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
Caldari 5 wrote:
Preto Black wrote:
I just want a mobile version of EveMonAttention
That is an Android app.

iirc Aura does most of the stuff that EveMon does :)

Too bad it can't eve handle simple ship fitting

I have to agree with this. It's the worst fitting tool I've ever used.

I can't even fit half the hacs or afs without it crashing.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Equinox Ying
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-02-03 07:54:40 UTC
Omg screw all that, so many people moaning about such a great idea, leave it to the big boys to do all the bean counting, Ice Dealer was just providing an example, he obviously has a little experience in the area, he's done his homework and posted sources and whatever. CCP doesn't need to profit, they just need to prove they are not cave men incapable of creating a simple mobile app, Jesus if I can get FarmVille and other Facebook games on my phones, why not a dumbed down version of Eve that allows me to adjust my skill queue without having to log on?
If you all still think it's a waste of CCPs time, fine, at the very least they could enable already existing apps to adjust skill queues, maybe a unique API key or something. I dunno but remotely accessing your skill queue is an awesome idea. We are in the second decade after all.

So yeah, plus 1 from me.
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
The Initiative.
#29 - 2014-02-03 10:17:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ele Rebellion
I would like to see a way to update skills from mobile device. Some people are unable to log into the game every time their skill que starts getting low. Examples would include Truck Drivers, River Boat workers, pipe line workers... Some of these groups of people are away from home for weeks at a time. Their internet typically consist of a smart phone or tablet. (of course I do know some people that play eve on ipad..) Some of these people, especially the OTR truck drivers, don't know where they are going to be 24 hours from now. It makes it hard for them to plan their training que, and unfair that they have to plan that training que around their job and not the skills they currently need.

So yea a definite +1 from me.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#30 - 2014-02-03 19:19:22 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
Caldari 5 wrote:
Preto Black wrote:
I just want a mobile version of EveMonAttention
That is an Android app.

iirc Aura does most of the stuff that EveMon does :)

Too bad it can't eve handle simple ship fitting

I have to agree with this. It's the worst fitting tool I've ever used.


I've been using Aura from the very beginning of my EVE career. I agree that the fitting tool is not very usable. It's also something that the devs behind Aura are aware of and a rebuild of that part of Aura (iirc) is pending the actual release of CREST. (I am not an Aura dev - but that is what I recall from their forums).

That said, wrt to OP:
1. Security - Ok sure

2. Be able to update Skill Ques of your characters - Yes please

3. Have a built in Skill Planning Program. (there are already several examples of community projects, such as EveMon: http://evemon.battleclinic.com/) - There are several products that already accomplish this (Aura can do this

4. Be able to view the market, and update orders - might be nice but I wouldn't make this a req (Orders are visible in Aura

5. Search, create, manage, Contracts - This would be far more useful (imo)
6. Access a mobile version of these forums - This, so much (or take the easier/cheaper way out and get this working in some of the many mobile forum apps out there like Tapatalk, etc)

7. View and manage personal assets - Several apps/webapps that can do this already (Aura can do this)
8. Create a ship fitting tool. (there are already several examples of community projects, such as EFT (Eve fitting Tool: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359) - Quite a few tools out there that attempt to do this (though I find that managing different fits across multiple platforms/file structures and import/export from EVE client would be needed/problematic)

9. Utilize any in-game chat channels. This includes evemails, local chat, alliance chat etc - EVEGate was supposed to expose this functionality but no idea what happened there
10. Ask the community for further development ideas (such as POS tracker, an autopilot function, whatever the community votes for) - Eh POS tracker might be ok - several apps do this - but the utility of ECM, via browser, for tracking POS status and assets basically obviates the need for this as an app component imo

I'm right behind you
Ice Dealer
Ice Dealer Corporation
#31 - 2014-02-10 22:44:40 UTC
Thanks for the support everyone.

I really hope that CCP considers this. They were very cutting edge with the idea of DUST, and hopefully they'll see that this is also the next step in gaming.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#32 - 2014-03-29 16:37:35 UTC
Bumping this topic because I'm really curious to hear from the Dev team is there are any planned enhancements regarding mobile functionality. Especially on the forum side.

I'm right behind you
Equinox Ying
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-04-03 23:59:50 UTC
Also bumping, cos it's a good idea, and deserves some feedback from the higher ups.
paritybit
Solarmark
#34 - 2014-04-04 00:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: paritybit
Ice Dealer wrote:
Using Extreme Programming Practices ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_programming_practices ) (an Agile software development methodology ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development )), develop the following Android App:

This app would support the following, and in order of waterfall ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model ) priority:


There was absolutely no reason to specify any more detail in this post than to suggest they develop a mobile application that allows players to act on their docked characters and let them perform actions they could perform while logged in and docked.

For one thing, you have completely misunderstood what the waterfall model is. Agile methodology and the waterfall model are methods for developing software. You can't really do both at the same time. I understand what you think the waterfall model is, but it isn't what you think it is. You didn't even read the Wikipedia entry that you linked.

Wikipedia wrote:
Advocates of Agile software development argue the waterfall model is a bad idea in practice—believing it impossible for any non-trivial project to finish a phase of a software product's lifecycle perfectly before moving to the next phases and learning from them.


If you took out all the details, I would almost support your idea. I think it would be great to have another way to log into EVE. Just the other day I was staying in a hotel unable to log into EVE because I didn't have a computer capable of running it -- but I had my android tablet. If I could have logged in to fiddle with my inventory or chat with my corp mates I probably would have done it.
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