Jita Park Speakers Corner

The minutes are in their very last stages of proofreading and correction and should be out imminently (for real: the CSM has seen them and sent them back, and now we're just talking about whether "superfriends" is one word or two (it's two.)).

It's been a long time. We spent some time chatting with CCP Dolan and a few people from the community on a G+ hangout earlier today, which was recorded here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flkE1d9Vfsk (part one) and then here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uToDRFvqDFY (part two) after technical issues briefly intruded.

The main question was, what do the minutes do for you? What should they do in the future?

We spent some time on what's happening with the minutes in the future. Some things were discussed, namely: having people doing notetaking in the meetings instead of reconstructing later, so we can agree on the facts early. Expanding arguments from just "the CSM went back and forth" to a short summary of what each CSM argued and why. We want a minutes styleguide and to post that to the community as well for feedback. The minutes are a vital tool that can't be just an internal thing.

Consensus was that the minutes should be a time for the community to see how their elected CSM representatives are performing-- who's actually doing stuff, who's arguing for what and why. This promotes transparency and provides data needed for future elections, as people decide who to vote for and whose endorsements matter.

Consensus was also that the minutes should be faster. The speed of delivery in the summer minutes is a problem, and it's one that we're actively working on solving for the future.

CCP Dolan indicated that he didn't want the minutes to be a venue for NDA releases. If there are issues with the broader context of development, that should be better clarified by CCP in official CCP communications like devblogs. To this, I'd say that's true-- but the CSM's feelings on broader philosophy are *also* important, so some of it will sneak in. In general, Dolan focused on wanting the minutes to be an effective tool for the CSM and CSM interested, but not mandatory for people who want to understand some other aspect of game development.

We talked a bit about ways to communicate about how the CSM is doing *outside* of the direct summit times, as there are regularly ongoing communications the community can't know as much about (because there's no chronicle that gets published).

It was a fascinating discussion and I recommend watching the video. I'll be posting a longer summary (minutes of the minutes discussion, if you will) on my blog and crossposting here as soon as I'm able; unfortunately, my travel schedule may put me offline for the rest of the day. This thread is intended to continue that discussion and ensure it's open to more people. Wanna talk about the minutes in general? Here's your place. I'll reiterate the question: What do the minutes do for you? What should they do in the future?

I believe that the minutes have several utilities:

(1) As commented above, they allow voters (and other players) to evaluate the performance and effective ideology of the CSM members in practice. Of course this utility is limited with respect to those CSM members who have already declared that they will not seek re-election

(2) They provide a documented hard counter to the mouth-breathers who spout the tired old "CSM is just a PR stunt/does nothing/free trip to Iceland" guff.

(3) Most importantly of all, they were the 'battleground' when relationships with CCP were far more adversarial than they are now. Those of us who remember the to-and-fro with CSM 5's minutes will understand this. The minutes are the last stop before the rubicon of NDA disclosure in the event that the CSM has an unbridgeable disagreement with CCP. Currently, CCP:CSM relations are very amicable and productive, but retaining the minutes is an insurance policy against the possibility that this relationship once again deteriorates.

Dear God,

Has it got to the stage where the CSM has no idea of how to run a meeting?

If this is the case then might I suggest that CCP runs a little seminar on how the CSM should go about the business of representing the players?

If you do not take contemporaneous notes of your meetings then how can the common ruck, i.e. the rest of us, have any confidence in what is, belatedly, written up.

A meeting with no minutes is useless, it turns into a private briefing which can then be distorted, used as a lever to gain advantage and is a direct contradiction of what the CSM was originally set up to do.

Sadly this is not the first time the minutes have been the subject of overt or covert tampering, delay, obfuscation etc. They are not your private property, they are the means by which the rest of the players can be kept abreast of the thoughts of those meant to represent us and the replies from CCP to those thoughts, requests, queries and so on.

Might I make one last suggestion? Appoint a Secretary to the Council. Give them the responsibility for ensuring the timely and accurate delivery of the minutes to the players. A late issue of the minutes serves no purpose. Things and thoughts have changed and personnel may have moved. Issuing the summer minutes now is just an historical exercise, a snapshot of how things were months ago.

CCP/CSM have let us down on this, and not for the first time.

Not good enough.

Oh, and before you ask, yes, I have been the secretary of a large and busy voluntary association. I know from experience what is required and how to do it.

Right, this will be my last comment on this, as I have a sense of deja-vu over the whole affair.

I recall having this argument with one of the previous incarnations of the CSM. On precisely this topic.

Notes taken by and subject to "editing" by CCP are not notes. They are propaganda if all they contain is what CCP wants to release.

NDA's, if the topics are not suitable for the players then they should not be divulged to the CSM, You are, like it or not our representatives. Otherwise you just become a CCP mouthpiece. I won't quote the original sections of the charter that set up the CSM, everyone should be aware of them and how they are a dead letter.

Telling people to watch a video is lazy and unhelpful It takes a lot longer to plough through the waffle, cross purposes, people talking at once and so on. Added to this are those players for whom English is a second language. It is often hard enough for native English speakers to make out what is being said. Having a written copy allows those good people who translate such documents to get on and let the non-English speakers know what is happening.

Personally I am indifferent as to what went on that long ago, but you should be reminded that there are certain responsibilities that go along with the perks you enjoy.

I hold my hands up to not doing a damb thing on the summer summit minutes; I was almost totally pre-occupied with RL problems over the summer I wasn't able to attend a single summit meeting, even remotely, alas. IIRC, you'll be able to see who authored what when they're published.

Since the minutes are in English, CSM members who do not have English as their first language are usually given something of a pass when it comes to this particular CSM task.

I will however confirm that Ali Aras has been a god damb hero with respect to the admin side of CSM8. I hope she runs again, and if she does, she should be chair.

This analysis pre-supposes that CCP and the players have no common interest.

Would you care to justify that supposition?

What do the CSM minutes do for me?

- Access to the CSM/CCP sessions; English is my third language and I can read it way better than I can listen to it (I *never* understood more than 1/3 of what CCP Unifex said...)
- early access to potential strategic blunders while they are in inception stage, rather than wait until they're done and our only options are to take the disaster as it comes or leave the game.
- direct access to CCP opinions, words and ideas without the filter/bias of all the CSM members who don't represent me. That's an extension of the second point; i can't avoid that the CSM gets all carried away about adding more nullsec for 3 bloody years, but certainly I can hear it from the horse's mouth and call the horse an ass. I don't care of what the CSM thinks as long as the CSM doesn't represents me, but I am still interested in what CCP says

I shall insist, I don't need to check the behavior of CSMs as the CSM doesn't represents me. I only need to check what a single guy does (it's a privilege of being in the dismissed majority), and as far as I am concerned, all the other 13 could spend the whole meeting drunk and never say a word.

So my message to CCP Dolan is, "YOUR opinion and YOUR plans matter to me way, WAY more than the 14% CSM. I would gladfuly discuss them without the CSM if you cared to engage the players proactively rather than wait until some of them organize to speak for themselves. So i want MORE peeking into the future and LESS chitchatting with popularity contest winners".

One of the questions where CCP's corporate answer is a complete disaster is, "how can I communicate with you about my opinions on your product or service?".

CCP may be the only company in the world where giving them a chance to adress an issue rather than stop giving them money is a privilege to be earned, inaccessible and irrelevant to 86% of the customers... and they BRAG about it!

There is a vast plain of possibilities between the NDA mountains and the desert of 86% oblivion.

Proactive surveying (going after demographically and statistically meaningful individuals) looks like a specially interesting option when facing a product as complex as EVE. You need lots of views of the elephant if you want to know it.

And the very few inteligence that reaches us at the bottom, doesn't makes me confident that up there in the NDA land they are tuned to the same wave as the users, nor they do much to improve that disconnect where investing three years almost exclusively in a highly focused and niche Jesus feature looks like a bright idea.

basically: no

The discussions CCP have with us are often game-sensitive as well as competition sensitive. So if Team Five-0 tell us that they're thinking off buffing the hell out of Small Pulse Lasers or whatever, then revealing that has a big effect in game, and everyone who doesn't get in on the speculation rush is mad. Later, CCP decide that Small Pulses only need a much smaller buff, and hundreds of speculators are mad at CCP too.

Naive and shallow analysis.

If it's buffed, it has to be revealed anyway at some point - even if that is at release. Speculating on the metagame has always been a part of the game, and withholding the discussions causes more harm than good.

It causes no harm to the game itself if certain people lose ISK by failed speculation. The only people it harms are the participants who knowingly took the risk anyways.

It can cause great good to the game if people gain isk by successful speculation. For instance, the SoE ships. If people had not speculated/invested in the possibility of SoE ships being very good and in high demand, the price for them at launch would have been that much higher.

But due to a lot of people betting on them and investing time into hoarding SoE LP in advance, they were at least affordable. Imagine if there had been zero notice. They would have cost billions for weeks.

In summary:
I can somewhat see Dolan's point about not wanting to reveal NDA stuff via the CSM minutes -- but I don't think it has anything to do with your particular points. Your reasoning is faulty.

I think the true reason is that with the Dev Blogs - they can say what they mean, rather than having a blurry vision presented as the future through third parties.