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why do battleships and caps cannot fight frigates??
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Centis Adjani
Adjani Corporation
#81 - 2013-12-27 19:19:01 UTC
I have no problem to kill frigates with my BS... (if they are not closer than 7.000 km - then I need my drones)

Just fit 800mm_Heavy_'Scout'_Repeating_Artillery

with Large Projectile Ambit Extension I

and two (or three) of Tracking Enhancer II
Chance Harper
Doomheim
#82 - 2013-12-27 20:00:31 UTC
simple reason.. it would be overkill.

thinking about the fact that the game is placed several thousand years in the future with awesome tech but still couldnt come up with anything that makes big turrets move faster is kinda dumb. Just as the fact that bigger missiles do less dmg on smaller ships, where we all know that a single cruise missile would shred a frig into pieces.

But its a game and it needs balance, so big guns suck against smaller targets.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-12-27 20:29:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Jill Chastot wrote:
Lets say an average 150mm autocannon does what? 50dps? (not efting this here)

Then we multiply that to 8 (for ships that have 8 slots), that being 400 dps, add various other lowslot modifiers and implants, now if you have even a 50% damage increase thats 600 with frigate tracking. Plus drones.

Now everyones flying battleships because frigates are not exactly well renowned for their ability to withstand large amounts of punishment.

See where im getting at here?

You don't need any math, it's really simple. Battleship weapons have ~77% more DPS and 300% more range than frigate weapons. It mostly doesn't matter what weapon type, though there are a handful of exceptions. If a battleship can do 400 DPS with frigate weapons, it can do 700 DPS with battleship weapons and it'll have 4x the range.

Here, I'll do some EFT for you:
assume all skills are 5, all ammo is EMP, and all weapons are tech II and are the biggest in the size class
(bolded damage values are with skill bonuses applying to all weapon sizes)

  1. Tempest with 6 large autocannons: 432.9 DPS, 3+24km range
  2. Tempest with 6 medium autocannons: 194.8 (324.7) DPS, 1.5+12km range
  3. Tempest with 6 small autocannons: 146.1 (243.5) DPS, 0.75+6km range
  4. Tempest with 6 large artillery: 336.1 DPS, 7290 volley, 30+44km range
  5. Tempest with 6 medium artillery: 168.1 (280.2) DPS, 2178 (2722.5) volley, 15+22km range
  6. Tempest with 6 small artillery: 113.4 (189.0) DPS, 875 (1093.75) volley, 7.5+11km range

edit: based on these values, would you really fit small autocannons to your Tempest for every fleet fight just because you got the weapon bonuses for them?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2013-12-27 20:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
shimiku wrote:
and i want a carrier with 200 drones but i aint getting that either

with drone assist you can have an interceptor with 500.

Its actually true though. I put it down to Iceland not having a real navy or something. CCP not being aware that Battle-cruisers and Battleships are capital ships. That carriers were in the same class of hull as battleships, not 50 times bigger.

But most importantly, that there were hundreds of guns on battleships. And taking off the main guns, lets say the Yamato's 18 inch guns to fit smaller .303 anti-aircraft guns would and is a ludicrous idea.

HRML is a good idea, there should be an option to fit HRLML as point defense but unfortunately CCP's 'vision' is that no combat ship should wtfpwn any other combat ship and isktanking is bad. Both ideas being ludicrous.

Imagine a world where a Spitfire could beat a F22 Raptor (because cost is not a balancing factor) and an Iranian Patrol Boat could speed and sig tank a Moskva (because its not fair small ships can't fight and beat larger ships solo)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#85 - 2013-12-27 20:45:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Yeah, true, but then again, there was this aesthetic choice by the architect of the death star where this small exposed thermal exhaust vent, located slightly below the main vent but no bigger than a womprat, where you can shoot a proton torpedo in it and the whole thing explodes. I know..major design flaw, but they totally could have covered it up with plywood, but would have looked terrible, and the empire had to think about resale value, plus it was guarded by towers and you had to skim along a trench to get to it, so hey, totally worth the extra thermal venting.

Well, hey, it worked, remember? Pretty much everything that entered that trench got blown up.

Not even a targeting computer could hit that kind of target. I mean, it would require some kind of supernatural intervention from a dead religion to make such an impossible shot, and surely everyone has outgrown such silly superstitions.

That last guy would have bought it too if everyone weren't too busy looking at countdown screens and pulling levers to notice that a hulking big (and curiously well-armed) transport ship had entered the scene to take potshots at the Emperor's special envoy. It was obviously all an inside job anyway.


My cheap-ass antivirus-program just swatted the website you linked away like a fly and scolded me. Apparently the site is plagued by malware. Please be careful what you link, OK?

Knights Armament wrote:
in reality though larger lasers would be harder to evade than smaller lasers, because lasers are an energy beam moving at lightspeed thats just one constant stream of energy. So wider ranged lightspeed moving light beams would be difficult to avoid.


Sorry, but the larger laser weapons would take longer to follow targets and thus would be easier to evade. Like it already is in Eve, strangely enough. Lasers aren't like self-propelled missiles, they have to be fired out of something, which is the weak point here.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-12-27 20:49:53 UTC
Chance Harper wrote:
thinking about the fact that the game is placed several thousand years in the future with awesome tech but still couldnt come up with anything that makes big turrets move faster is kinda dumb.

Turrets in EVE Online are much larger than real world turrets, and they move much faster. The logistics of getting a turret with a base some 100 meters across to turn and aim toward a target in just a few seconds is staggering.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2013-12-27 21:01:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Owen Levanth wrote:

Sorry, but the larger laser weapons would take longer to follow targets and thus would be easier to evade. Like it already is in Eve, strangely enough. Lasers aren't like self-propelled missiles, they have to be fired out of something, which is the weak point here.

Not necessarily true. A bigger ship means bigger mechanical devices. This wouldn't fit on a patrol boat but you could fit multiple on a cruiser or aircraft carrier. More real estate = more point defense = less chance of a smaller ship surviving.

Phalanx tracks like a pro btw.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-12-27 21:06:08 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Not necessarily true. A bigger ship means bigger mechanical devices. This wouldn't fit on a patrol boat but you could fit multiple on a cruiser or aircraft carrier. More real estate = more point defense = less chance of a smaller ship surviving.

Phalanx tracks like a pro btw.

All the more reason large ships should get weapon bonuses for fitting small turrets.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2013-12-27 21:16:20 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Not necessarily true. A bigger ship means bigger mechanical devices. This wouldn't fit on a patrol boat but you could fit multiple on a cruiser or aircraft carrier. More real estate = more point defense = less chance of a smaller ship surviving.

Phalanx tracks like a pro btw.

All the more reason large ships should get weapon bonuses for fitting small turrets.

Would only be worthwhile fitting them if they didn't cripple the ships main role though. If a battleship could do 1000 dps to another battleship but to kill a frigate required refitting all its guns to small and doing 200 dps why would you?

A balanced system would provide for a battleship sized anti frigate system (like the Phalanx) that could only fit on large ships. So you might have 7 large turrets and 1 Phalanx type system and do 850 dps, losing 15% rather than 80% to deal with frigates.

CCP would never consider it though, they understand that people like the small ship killing big ship thing and are not really that interested in realism. EVE is not and has never been a naval simulator despite borrowing all the classes, terms and so on from naval warfare.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2013-12-27 21:22:46 UTC
Frigate weapons deal 56% of the damage of battleship weapons, not 20%. It's their range that's tiny.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Niclas Solo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2013-12-27 23:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Niclas Solo
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
has anyone heard of point defense?? I mean come on look at other scifi. Star wars? Star trek? any big ship has special turrents to fight and kill small fighters and other such things..... EVEN DEATH STAR.
Big smile


Even the death star died to a frigate.
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2013-12-28 00:04:49 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
has anyone heard of point defense?? I mean come on look at other scifi. Star wars? Star trek? any big ship has special turrents to fight and kill small fighters and other such things..... EVEN DEATH STAR.

Why not add new slot tipe along with hi/med/low: 'point def' slot that is to trade power from main guns to smaller guns so your not HELPLESS if a frigate tackles ur dread??

whos with me Big smile

You go right ahead and fit smalls in your high slots...

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#93 - 2013-12-28 06:39:39 UTC
Ila Dace wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
has anyone heard of point defense?? I mean come on look at other scifi. Star wars? Star trek? any big ship has special turrents to fight and kill small fighters and other such things..... EVEN DEATH STAR.

Why not add new slot tipe along with hi/med/low: 'point def' slot that is to trade power from main guns to smaller guns so your not HELPLESS if a frigate tackles ur dread??

whos with me Big smile

You go right ahead and fit smalls in your high slots...


I doOops
Gealbhan
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#94 - 2013-12-28 06:51:49 UTC
For the same reason a blue whale can't catch a barracuda? Arrow
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#95 - 2013-12-29 00:42:09 UTC
Can you guys speak up? I can't hear you over the sound of all these smartbombs going off. Also, large neuts + a flight of lights are good ways to fight off frigates, but you can't keep up indefinately against a frigate onslaught. As it should be, it's a game after all.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#96 - 2013-12-29 00:47:04 UTC
why is this thread stil going? is all bittervet trols with no imaginaton?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#97 - 2013-12-29 02:05:18 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
In the next exciting episode of "Why not" we discuss why we don't have area effect remote repairing.


I'd hate to disappoint you... but there is.
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#98 - 2013-12-29 03:18:22 UTC
So i will ask why not?
Dyphorus
Inritus Astrum
#99 - 2013-12-29 06:02:51 UTC
Ever heard of balance?
Abisha Baboli
#100 - 2013-12-29 08:19:47 UTC
it's a serious design flaw.
i will never create a Battleship without at least point defense turrets.

oh and miniguns for those missiles.....
even battleships here on earth have them, but in EvE??!!..