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Skill retraining.
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cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#21 - 2013-12-26 22:29:15 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
dear op. this type of timed SP reinbursal idea was suggested not but a few days ago.


yes I read it but it was nothing like what I proposed.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2013-12-27 00:22:51 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Mag's wrote:
No. You trained them and had use of them.

This idea is nothing new and will be rejected by the majority of the player base, as well as CCP.



Just curious but you actually as a player don't want to have this ability? You think this would ruin eve how exactly?
No I don't want this ability, at all. The only thing I would accept is complete removal of skills, but at the loss of the SP as well as skill book. But even that is borderline, due to the issues it could raise.

SP reallocation promotes FOTM and doesn't really solve anything, so I'm completely against it.



FOTM? Flavor of the month? It would still take you a year to retrain, and only 2 million skill points are changed. Why is this such a threat to the game? Can you explain yourself? You're like a true politician you can't give me a straight answer.



I currently have minmatar battleship V. This is fine for alphafleet doctrines using maelstroms. The meta changes, the ship of choice shifts from maelstroms to, say, rokhs. Your proposal would mean I could just take my SP out of minmatar battleship and dump it straight into caldari battleship, thus instantly giving me the latest FOTM ship with no training. your proposal makes my choice to train minmatar battleship V meaningless, as it has completely removed the consequence.

Another example: I'm on a per/will remap. I train up a battleship V skill, and dump 2 million SP into wing command. That's an instant WC V without needing to remap to cha/will. Your proposal makes remaps meaningless.

Or, how about this? I forget to update my clone, lose FC V, and instantly regain it by remapping the SP out of...I dunno, Amarr cruiser or something else I'm not using. The consequences of my failure to update my clone are removed.



Your proposal removes consequences. EVE is a game all about consequences. Therefore your proposal is something to be opposed.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#23 - 2013-12-27 02:12:49 UTC
Okay Fedo,
you may just this once play with op and on her lap Twisted.

But you still have to wait outside and guard the door for eating my couch...

And before my always hungry Fedo eats you, I take donations of all your stuff contracted to Amarr and will use it in my video.

Thanks in advance!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-12-27 09:52:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Danika Princip wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Mag's wrote:
No. You trained them and had use of them.

This idea is nothing new and will be rejected by the majority of the player base, as well as CCP.



Just curious but you actually as a player don't want to have this ability? You think this would ruin eve how exactly?
No I don't want this ability, at all. The only thing I would accept is complete removal of skills, but at the loss of the SP as well as skill book. But even that is borderline, due to the issues it could raise.

SP reallocation promotes FOTM and doesn't really solve anything, so I'm completely against it.



FOTM? Flavor of the month? It would still take you a year to retrain, and only 2 million skill points are changed. Why is this such a threat to the game? Can you explain yourself? You're like a true politician you can't give me a straight answer.



I currently have minmatar battleship V. This is fine for alphafleet doctrines using maelstroms. The meta changes, the ship of choice shifts from maelstroms to, say, rokhs. Your proposal would mean I could just take my SP out of minmatar battleship and dump it straight into caldari battleship, thus instantly giving me the latest FOTM ship with no training. your proposal makes my choice to train minmatar battleship V meaningless, as it has completely removed the consequence.

Another example: I'm on a per/will remap. I train up a battleship V skill, and dump 2 million SP into wing command. That's an instant WC V without needing to remap to cha/will. Your proposal makes remaps meaningless.

Or, how about this? I forget to update my clone, lose FC V, and instantly regain it by remapping the SP out of...I dunno, Amarr cruiser or something else I'm not using. The consequences of my failure to update my clone are removed.



Your proposal removes consequences. EVE is a game all about consequences. Therefore your proposal is something to be opposed.




also the deal with fotm is, I think anyway, is re-trains/xtrains are ccp's checks and balance against it shifting to fast and too soon.


CCP knows if they buff a ship people will jump to it. FOTM will come, ccp just wants to slow it down just a tad. With current sp model in place this fotm is a gradual progression so that ccp can try to determine how bad potential actual "op" can be while it is while still low in numbers. As I believe there is a strong relation to excessive spamming giving false positives of signs of op.
Drakes sucked until....drake train. Then they were op my usual example.

When ccp fixed nag for example, they had the chance to see if any viable" op factor" is actually there as by and large people have written off minmatar caps for years. Only die hards who wanted to fly being vertical (or the rusty roof) did this. So on the magical day ccp took away the turds known as citadel launchers all 10000 of goons, test, etc were not in nags the next day. Which I think gives ccp better feedback for observing the change they made.

This system I like. Minmatar pilots had day 1 access to a vastly improved ship. Haters had to play catch up if they wanted to give it a go post change.
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#25 - 2013-12-27 12:00:51 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:
... yet another skill respec idea...


Tippia's list of reasons why skill respec is a bad idea is still out there, look it up. If you think you can come up with reasonable counter arguments feel free to share them with the rest of us.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#26 - 2013-12-27 12:03:06 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:
Mag's wrote:
No I don't want this ability, at all. The only thing I would accept is complete removal of skills, but at the loss of the SP as well as skill book. But even that is borderline, due to the issues it could raise.

SP reallocation promotes FOTM and doesn't really solve anything, so I'm completely against it.



FOTM? Flavor of the month? It would still take you a year to retrain, and only 2 million skill points are changed. Why is this such a threat to the game? Can you explain yourself? You're like a true politician you can't give me a straight answer.
Yes FOTM as Danika Princip has pointed out. Not only that, but you trained the skills and had use of them. Why should you now get that time and SP back? What exactly are you trying to solve here? Nothing is stopping you training for whatever you want and those skills you do have are still usable.

So far you've yet to explain yourself on why this is required. After all, it's your idea and therefore the onus is upon you.

I now find that I am training for the sake of training. Sure I could have levelled out all the skills I had to 5, but decided to level all PvP related skills to 5 instead. Just because and not because I think I need them.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#27 - 2013-12-27 12:06:25 UTC
Sable Moran wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
... yet another skill respec idea...


Tippia's list of reasons why skill respec is a bad idea is still out there, look it up. If you think you can come up with reasonable counter arguments feel free to share them with the rest of us.
Indeed. Here it is.
Tippia wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.
You may think the 2 million limit helps your case, but it's simply a means of getting your foot in the door. So to speak. It wouldn't be long, before the calls for more SP per year started.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-12-27 12:44:54 UTC
Mag's wrote:
you trained the skills and had use of them. Why should you now get that time and SP back? What exactly are you trying to solve here? Nothing is stopping you training for whatever you want and those skills you do have are still usable..



this as well.


Its on the player to keep the skills useful. I have 4 years in this game, I still dust off long unused sp's here and there.

Even a dark past in mining can have its uses. Couple times for me in 0.0 the belts were sausage fests and not enough rats to go around. I had a rokh, scared up some mining equipment, went mining. Rokh mines pretty good. Some isk better than no isk.

HAs CCP deprecated some of my trainings if this is a well ccp nerfed my ride/fit/module whine? yes. 4 years I seen a few cycles of nerf, buff, nerf, buff. Maybe not this year but next some sp may go up in stock.

Or I knew damn well such fun setups as dual neut a cane were bound for the nerf bat eventually as I trained for them. Did I have my fun when it was around? Yep. I wanted to have that sp in the good days, well then I got it in the less than good days.
DragonGrace
Voyeur Vanguard
#29 - 2013-12-27 13:49:51 UTC
You know, I kinda like this idea.

i only have one problem though.

It kinda defeats the purpose of training your guy in general. this toon for example is quite well rounded. Mainly indy and science, but decent in gunnery and mechanics aswell. I'm quite proud of this because of the time i have invested in my subscription to make it happen.

Being able to move point from indy to gunnery of the other hand doesnt mean that i have "trained" anything. I dont really see the satisfaction in it. And as has already been mentioned 2m SP wouldnt be nearly enough to make an effect on your skill balance until you were a really new toon.

Its a good idea, but i think its kinda defeats why we train our skills and why we train the ones that we train, when we come to train them. the training system is that thing that give you a goal. its like a long term, slightly strategic mini game.

If you can just re assign points, its kinda breaks it. I even think this when CCP take skills out of the game and we get to put the points elsewhere. The only reason why i am for that though is because i did earn those points, and they need to go somewhere.

With your idea, sure i earned those points, but they were already somewhere and there was reason why.

So, its a good idea....but just not for eve in my eyes.
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#30 - 2014-01-14 06:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyndrogen
The reason why we should be allowed to retrain skills is due to the EVER changing nerfs and buffs that have been introduced. For example, drakes use to be the best before but now they are kinda meh. People trained all these skills to fly drakes but the game developers then changed the game and left them with skills they no longer use.

Same with mining, the barges went through significant changes as well as the haulers yet the skills we trained were based on a previous version of the game.

The game changes every year, why cant we adjust our skills? I think it's fair considering how often ships and modules have changed and 2 million points a year is NOT going to hurt eve.

Eve is an ever changing and evolving sandbox and we should not be forced to keep old skills which are no longer relevant in the latest version.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#31 - 2014-01-14 07:00:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Cyndrogen wrote:
Eve is an ever changing and evolving sandbox and we should not be forced to keep old skills which are no longer relevant in the latest version.

Just because YOU think they are no longer relevant (or no longer relevant to what you do) it does not mean they are no longer relevant at all.

You CHOOSE to utilize or not utilize the skills you have. The game doesn't care.


And if you train up to use FOTM and it gets changed/nerfed... well... that's a consequence of training for FOTM.

How did you Veterans start?
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#32 - 2014-01-14 07:09:17 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Eve is an ever changing and evolving sandbox and we should not be forced to keep old skills which are no longer relevant in the latest version.

Just because YOU think they are no longer relevant (or no longer relevant to what you do) it does not mean they are no longer relevant at all.

You CHOOSE to utilize or not utilize the skills you have. The game doesn't care.


And if you train up to use FOTM and it gets changed/nerfed... well... that's a consequence of training for FOTM.


There is no good reason to force players to keep old skills. None. We should be allowed to adapt and modify skills like the game is modified and changed. That is reasonable. Not allowing skills to be retrained is unreasonable and makes no sense.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#33 - 2014-01-14 07:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Not allowing re-allocation makes no sense TO YOU.

When you joined EVE and began training, you knew the risks. If you didn't know the risks, it was due to your own negligence and failure to find out what those risks were.

This is arguably just as bad a suggestion as that ridiculously awful "SP for PLEX" thread that's going on right now. It might even be worse, I can't quite say for sure.

Absolutely not supported, -1, please biomass at once.
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#34 - 2014-01-14 11:06:41 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Not allowing re-allocation makes no sense TO YOU.

When you joined EVE and began training, you knew the risks. If you didn't know the risks, it was due to your own negligence and failure to find out what those risks were.

This is arguably just as bad a suggestion as that ridiculously awful "SP for PLEX" thread that's going on right now. It might even be worse, I can't quite say for sure.

Absolutely not supported, -1, please biomass at once.


WHen I joined eve I knew nothing about the risks. Nor did I understand the skills needed. Now I'm not sure but I don't recall reading a HOW TO manual like yourself. Everything in eve you have to figure out by trial and error. However, even if I knew ALL the risks there is no way I could predic how CCP would ALTER the game when I startedplaying it, so your argument is not only flawed it's magically flawed. I didn't have a crystal ball, unlike yourself, which told me which skills to train for and which items I would be using most today.

No it changed, not because of my ignorance, but because of a game mechanic that was altered by the developer. Now, had I known about these changes when I started, maybe I could have planned better. But if the game developer changes the game then the skills should ALSO reflect that change. I don't think you even understand this concept.

Remember skills books fr learning? Yeah that was taken out and I got my SP back! NIce! I think the same should be done every single time the game is altered especially ship stats etc.

I know it's more work but I think the current setup is ripping us off when it comes to time invested in skills.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-01-14 11:26:10 UTC
I don't think this would be a good idea for all the usual reasons

Consider: A new ship class is brought in, let's say salvaged terran destroyer. Everybody wants it of course and rushes to get the training. Everybody is starting from the same point though, the 1 month old character will learn the skills just as fast as the 10 year old character (barring implants, but then the older character has *earnt* those).

Now with your idea the 10 year old character who has an SP remap handy can just go 'Hey ho I'll have the skillset for that ship to level 5 please', instantly leaving everybody else behind by around 2 months on the new ship class, especially the newer players who would actually benefit most from something like that since they now have a much more level playing field in that class of ship.

In lore terms, how could you remap your brain that way? The cloning process turns your brain to mush upon reading and transfer an exact copy of it to your new sponge. How could this take experience in one area and turn it into another? It couldn't, capsuleers inject the theoretical knowledge for a skill and then have to learn on top of that knowledge to fully utilise it. Nothing can replace that experience (which is mirrored in the time spent by you learning *how* to use the skill whilst it trains up the levels) in my opinion.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#36 - 2014-01-14 11:37:01 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:
FOTM? Flavor of the month? It would still take you a year to retrain, and only 2 million skill points are changed. Why is this such a threat to the game? Can you explain yourself? You're like a true politician you can't give me a straight answer.

He nor anyone else needs to explain themselves to you. All the explanations required have already been made in the plethora of posts made prior to yours on the subject, some of which were pretty much exactly the same. Do some research rather than demanding people reiterate the same arguments for the thousandth time.

Use the search function.... unless it's simply an argument you're after in which case keep at it.
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#37 - 2014-01-14 11:44:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.


This.

The fact that decisions made in this game have consequences is one of the major reasons to play it.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-01-14 11:46:49 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Mag's wrote:
No. You trained them and had use of them.

This idea is nothing new and will be rejected by the majority of the player base, as well as CCP.



Just curious but you actually as a player don't want to have this ability? You think this would ruin eve how exactly?
No I don't want this ability, at all. The only thing I would accept is complete removal of skills, but at the loss of the SP as well as skill book. But even that is borderline, due to the issues it could raise.

SP reallocation promotes FOTM and doesn't really solve anything, so I'm completely against it.



FOTM? Flavor of the month? It would still take you a year to retrain, and only 2 million skill points are changed. Why is this such a threat to the game? Can you explain yourself? You're like a true politician you can't give me a straight answer.



I currently have minmatar battleship V. This is fine for alphafleet doctrines using maelstroms. The meta changes, the ship of choice shifts from maelstroms to, say, rokhs. Your proposal would mean I could just take my SP out of minmatar battleship and dump it straight into caldari battleship, thus instantly giving me the latest FOTM ship with no training. your proposal makes my choice to train minmatar battleship V meaningless, as it has completely removed the consequence.

Another example: I'm on a per/will remap. I train up a battleship V skill, and dump 2 million SP into wing command. That's an instant WC V without needing to remap to cha/will. Your proposal makes remaps meaningless.

Or, how about this? I forget to update my clone, lose FC V, and instantly regain it by remapping the SP out of...I dunno, Amarr cruiser or something else I'm not using. The consequences of my failure to update my clone are removed.



Your proposal removes consequences. EVE is a game all about consequences. Therefore your proposal is something to be opposed.


Did you read this post? You seem to just be either die hard on your idea, or a troll, or both...... the post above gave 3 perfect reasons why remaping skills is bad for the game

please read this post, and then never ask for this again,

Thank you,
Tsobai
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-01-14 13:15:17 UTC
I would like the ability to reallocate all of the OP's skill points at 10% efficiency. I would start off by giving him Jury Rigging V and Multitasking V.
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2014-01-14 13:45:25 UTC
OP, No

Going to hijack another readjustment of skill points thread.



PLEX for the Removal of Unwanted/Unused Skills

You DO NOT get the skill points or price of skill books reimbursed.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
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