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Tech II BPO's
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Hoohnzy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2011-11-07 13:39:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Hoohnzy
DarthSyl wrote:
Thanks for the replies everyone, except for Lutz, you're just an ass.

Yes I know some players have BPO's for sale. Do I have billions of ISK at my disposal to buy one? No.

The problem here is that this is a consumer product, a game. It was intended for entertainment purposes.
Let's use another entertainment example. Let's say you go to the movies, and see... Tranformers 3 (I dunno).
Lets say that the movie theatre advertises that you will see the whole movie, all 154 minutes of it. You get your
popcorn and you get your soda, maybe some candy too, and you sit down ready for 154 minutes of entertainment.

Now, the movie is over, and you noticed that you only got 120 minutes of entertainment. You approach the manager
to ask where the other 34 minutes of the movie went, and they kindly explain that the other 34 minutes of the movie
was shown to movie goers a week previously, and there is no way you can watch the rest of the movie now.

Are you going to be happy? No.

Are you going to be upset you paid money to see 4/5 of a movie? Yes.

The problem here is that they advertise this game as being the same for everyone. Everyone has the same opportunity
as everyone else to utilize this consumer product in the same way. But apparently that isn't true!

If CCP doesn't want to let everyone have access to tech II BPO's, that's fine. But they should advertise that they are
selling an incomplete product, and monthly fees should be adjusted to reflect this for those who do not have
access to the whole product.

I am really curious just how CCP has protected themselves from legal action concerning this.


Do CCP promised you that you can buy T2 BPOs form NPCs on markets when you signed up and paid??
Edit: or that you can get them from RnD agents for free?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#22 - 2011-11-07 13:44:01 UTC
DarthSyl wrote:
Lutz Major wrote:
DarthSyl wrote:
Maybe my sense of unfairness is heightened lately, probably brought into focus with so much "Occupy" protesting
being in the news as of late. Perhaps its made me a little sensitive to shady practices by businesses.

None the less, what CCP has done isn't fair to their average consumer, and as such the price of the product should
reflect that, and the consumer should be made aware of that before they make the decision to purchase. Really, that
shouldn't be asking for too much. If we can't ask for a fair shake from the people we give our hard earned cash to,
then this economy really is going to ****, along with the rest of the world.

I got one more ass-question: How many blue pills did you take, dude?



No pill Lutz. It is not unreasonable for me to expect the same treatment and the same product available to every
other subscriber of EVE. After all, we all pay the same price (except people paying in euros, I understand your
frustration). Except I guess the same product isn't available to us all, now is it?

I'm even more curious now. Are there other aspects to EVE that aren't available to the general public? I don't mean
trivial promotional stuff like the 30 day implant for new trial accounts, I mean large game changing exclusions like
tech II BPO's?



nullsec, lowsec, (super-)capital ships, POS, Outposts, moongoo, T3 Invention... and probably a whole host of other things are not available to the "general" public.

If you want to get this stuff, you can (but then, you're no longer part of the "general" public).

Your options include, but are not limited to:
The market (in game; and the forums, including the Character Bazaar)
Getting into a corporation that has access to this stuff (renter or sov holder)
Take it from someone who has it

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#23 - 2011-11-07 14:16:08 UTC
It is what it is. I never understand why people get so bent out of shape about this. Invention is the new norm. Either learn to deal with it or don't. Complaining like this will accomplish nothing. Well, maybe you feel better?

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Zaron Arzi
Terbo Holdings
#24 - 2011-11-07 14:47:23 UTC
Read down til the part where someone said we pay the same price so we should all have the same access to all content. Go **** yourself. If I put in the time and energy to get billions of isk while you just sit on your ass talking to people and not using your in game time efficiently to accomplish something you want, then you shouldnt get the same content as me.

I hate the bastards that think they are entitled to everything someone else has worked their ass off for in real life, I dont want it in my games too. Entertainment is what we pay for, every single one of us has the ability to aquire the same exact assets, if you put forth the effor to get it. If you put in less than someone else, you will get less returned. Simple as that.

The world needs to stop accomodating the lowest common denominator who cries cuz they want to be lazy.
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2011-11-07 15:12:59 UTC
DarthSyl wrote:
I'm even more curious now. Are there other aspects to EVE that aren't available to the general public? I don't mean
trivial promotional stuff like the 30 day implant for new trial accounts, I mean large game changing exclusions like
tech II BPO's?


Because T2 BPOs are "game changing"? Lol


If you want to sue CCP, then do it proprely and include how not having a Guardian-Vexor or an Imperial Apocalypse is changing your game experience, and how you don't have fun without them.
Xentara Vispari
Storm of Glory
#26 - 2011-11-07 15:36:14 UTC
DarthSyl wrote:
Ok I know this was probably covered years ago, but I just recently came back to EVE and am just now hearing this:

Tech II BPO's arent available to the public? They were only given out by "lottery" during their introduction?

How is this fair to any new or returning players with a focus on manufacturing? Why is this not listed in the EULA, that
not all game items are available to everyone? I feel cheated to learn just now that I will most likely never get my hands
on a tech II BPO. This is something that should be stated in the EULA, and us consumers should be well informed
before we decide to hand over our hard earned cash to play EVE.

This is like going to an icecream stand and seeing them advertise chocolate sprinkles, but then telling you that
"Oh, we're sorry, those sprinkles were only given out to people four years ago, you cant have any now".

I'm starting to remember why I didnt stick with this game previously. Excuse me while I go contemplate paying a monthly
fee for part of a game....



Did CCP advertise T2 BPO's somewhere?

If you like RL comparisons: browsing the advertisements for caribbean sea holidays, you will see many photos with luxury yachts with heli landing pad and a bunch of models lieing on the sun deck etc.

Of course this available to YOU, IF you got the money. If you don't have the money, you need to chose the standard package.
The same works in EVE. If you have enough RL money, buy PLEX and convert them to ISK and you can own any of the T2 BPOs available on the market.

Otherwise choose the standard package like 99.99% do.
Party Lips
Calamitous-Intent
#27 - 2011-11-07 15:42:53 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
Either you're a bad troll or you're too stupid to understand the role of T2 BPO plays in eve economy...


they do not have any role at all in the eve economy. ccp just doesn't want to make people angry by removing them.
DarthSyl
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-11-07 15:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthSyl
Zaron Arzi wrote:
Read down til the part where someone said we pay the same price so we should all have the same access to all content. Go **** yourself. If I put in the time and energy to get billions of isk while you just sit on your ass talking to people and not using your in game time efficiently to accomplish something you want, then you shouldnt get the same content as me.

I hate the bastards that think they are entitled to everything someone else has worked their ass off for in real life, I dont want it in my games too. Entertainment is what we pay for, every single one of us has the ability to aquire the same exact assets, if you put forth the effor to get it. If you put in less than someone else, you will get less returned. Simple as that.

The world needs to stop accomodating the lowest common denominator who cries cuz they want to be lazy.


You are missing the point entirely. Of course people that work hard in this game should be rewarded with the things they
earn. I am not talking about making money, nor about acquiring any specific tech II ship or part. Not everyone has the
ability to acquire the exact same assets. Under the current policy its IMPOSSIBLE for every single player to have these
BPO's.

Please, take your hate, and your "Go **** yourself." somewhere else.


Shadowsword wrote:
DarthSyl wrote:
I'm even more curious now. Are there other aspects to EVE that aren't available to the general public? I don't mean
trivial promotional stuff like the 30 day implant for new trial accounts, I mean large game changing exclusions like
tech II BPO's?


Because T2 BPOs are "game changing"? Lol


If you want to sue CCP, then do it proprely and include how not having a Guardian-Vexor or an Imperial Apocalypse is changing your game experience, and how you don't have fun without them.


No thats not my point either. Im not out to sue anyone. I would just stop paying for their service.

As far as it being game changing, Im sure it was for those fortunate enough to have obtained them when they were
handed out.

Someone above said perhaps I am complaining to make myself feel better. Not precisely. I really just want to understand
the logic behind this decision. Would it unbalance the game if they were made available from the npc market? If so, then
its pretty easy to argue that it must give the holder an extreme advantage. If it wouldnt unbalance the game, then why are
they not available from npc's? Also, if Invention is the new norm, and the BPO's were given out for free anyway, why not
just get rid of them all together, and let invention be the only way to acquire tech II?
DarthSyl
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-11-07 15:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthSyl
Xentara Vispari wrote:



Did CCP advertise T2 BPO's somewhere?

If you like RL comparisons: browsing the advertisements for caribbean sea holidays, you will see many photos with luxury yachts with heli landing pad and a bunch of models lieing on the sun deck etc.

Of course this available to YOU, IF you got the money. If you don't have the money, you need to chose the standard package.
The same works in EVE. If you have enough RL money, buy PLEX and convert them to ISK and you can own any of the T2 BPOs available on the market.

Otherwise choose the standard package like 99.99% do.



Oh but I am sure that is listed in the fine print. It is information available to the consumer BEFORE they make the purchase.
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-11-07 17:05:05 UTC
DarthSyl wrote:


No thats not my point either. Im not out to sue anyone. I would just stop paying for their service.

As far as it being game changing, Im sure it was for those fortunate enough to have obtained them when they were
handed out.


I'm one of them (Wasp II here), and guess what? It didn't.

Everyone seem to think that having one T2 print instantly make you ultra-rich, and that you just had to be lucky to get one.

Both are wrong.

- The vast majority of T2 prints have relatively low value. Even now, I'm sure I could get something like a small smartbomb BPO for les than 500m if I wanted too. Will it make me rich? Nope.

- You didn't just have to get lucky to receive a BPO. Sure, it played a part, but it was a case of creating your own luck. If you really wanted one, you had to grind standings, not just with your main, but your alts as well, invest lots of SP, and do the daily missions. It was a hefty amount of time and effort, for no guarranted result. And for each holder who really lucked out and got a BPO with little effort involved, there's fifty who got one after a lot of sweat, and a hundred who got nothing.
If those who worked for those BPOs had just spend the time grinding missions instead, a lot of them would have gotten more isks out of the time involved.

- You can earn more money doing invention than exploiting a BPO. So it's not like it's a real advantage to have one.
Leonard Dukes
Arbitrage Holdings Corporation
#31 - 2011-11-07 17:06:23 UTC
Shadowsword wrote:
Guardian-Vexor


Came for this; leaving satisfied.
Brock Nelson
#32 - 2011-11-07 17:23:30 UTC
I'm sorry OP but what did you really hope to achieve with this thread?

You have a lot of misconception about the T2 BPO aspect of the game and I have no doubt there are other parts that you're not getting. EVE Online is not the only game where you don't get to do certain things or have access to certain things right off the bat. Examples:

-You can't get personal defense weapon in Battlefield 3 without earning it
-You can't play the final level in Starcraft 2 without playing the beginning of the game

Games are not comparable to movies, that's like comparing apples and orange.

There are other aspects of EVE Online that aren't easily accessible to new player. They're...

-Mining
-Ratting/Missioning
-Trading
-Etc

All of those are pretty basic stuff in the game but obviously they require skill training and a bit of isk grinding before getting into those professions. Heck, I'm fairly sure that you could've easily find that out before handing your money over to CCP by doing something that most of us have done: Research.

If you honestly feel that T2 BPOs are a game changer, then you obviously don't understand the role it really plays in the economy.

Signature removed, CCP Phantom
Gatan Hahran
Brukterer
#33 - 2011-11-07 17:36:04 UTC
I just checked Item Exchange Contracts ingame and there is a T2 BPO for 10 billion isk.

Gatans Get-a-T2-BPO-Tutorial:

1) Get in your Ibis
2) Undock
3) Right-click in space
4) Click "Asteroid Belts" select one of the belts and warp to it.
5) Target a veldspar asteroid
6) Click the miner and wait until cargo is full
7) Fly to station and dock
8) Drag and Drop your veldspar from cargo to item bay in station
9) Right-click ore and sell it
10) go to 2) and repeat until you have 10 billion isk in your wallet

Good luck, and i will be happy to welcome you to the elite group of eve nobles soon.
bushwacka
Tap That Asteroid
#34 - 2011-11-07 17:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: bushwacka
@OP: everyone has the ability to produce T2 goods - the invention/production skills for everything up to (including) T2 cruisers don't take years to finish and for the bigger stuff like blops/marauders there aren't any BPOs anyway. initial investment costs are low as well, even for a newer player, especially if you go for modules. like others have stated before, T2 invention is the current standard for about everything except the loleagle and a small assortment of crappy mods.

and this is also what CCP advertises (if they actually do advertise it, never saw an ad stating "hey come play eve online and build T2 stuff!") - that you can build T2, but how you do it is another story.

nevertheless, what you want, nay DEMAND from CCP is that they give you a golden goose for free (or cheap), which is quite a bit different from just being able to do something. think about that for a bit, if YOU can get any T2 BPO easily, everyone else can - because concluding from what you wrote so far, you're not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer Blink

bottom line: T2 production is one of the "high(er) end" aspects of eve gameplay involving a brain and should stay the way it is.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-11-07 18:38:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyniac
Too much negativity... how about if CCP Did issue a warning it would read something like this:


ArrowWARNING Shocked

You are about to enter the universe of EVE. As a capsuleer, you may grow to wield awesome power capable of unleashing cataclysmic events.

However, you are not alone in the universe. There are others who have come before you, they have build up empires, plundered worlds, cut swathes of destruction in their way and build up huge industrial complexes in the heart of hostile territory, or learned to push the market forces of entire galaxies in their favour. In so doing they have amassed fortunes beyond reckoning and gathered rare and unique artefacts and knowledge which gives them the power which they now sit on.

Are you strong enough to compete? Know that while you can achieve some measure of success on your own, sooner or later you will come into conflict with your fellows. The fastest path to power is the one in which you steal, buy or destroy the power base of your competitors, and only in this way will you gain some of the power that the ones which have come before you have amassed.

And when you reach the pinnacle of your power, you can rest in the knowledge that right behind you, another generation of power hungry capsuleers is rising... and that they are coveting your wealth with a greed and cunning which may turn out to match your own.

Welcome Capsuleer... and know that once you fly past this point, you will never turn back.

You Have Been Warned.

Pirate
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#36 - 2011-11-07 20:39:30 UTC
DarthSyl wrote:


You are missing the point entirely. Of course people that work hard in this game should be rewarded with the things they
earn. I am not talking about making money, nor about acquiring any specific tech II ship or part. Not everyone has the
ability to acquire the exact same assets. Under the current policy its IMPOSSIBLE for every single player to have these
BPO's


So what? Not everyone can have a limited edition ship, a station, an office in Jita 4-4, or a tech moon. Even for goods that are unlimited in production, a lot of them won't be had by everyone (such as supercap ships) simply because they're too expensive.

This complaint keeps springing up again and again, but it ignores an obvious thing. A lot of things are meant to be unfair in Eve. It makes no sense to complain about something because it is "unfair". My view is that your time would be better spent finding your own edge rather than complaining about the edges enjoyed by others.
VaMei
Meafi Corp
#37 - 2011-11-07 21:31:25 UTC
Went to the Chevy dealer today to buy a '63' Split at the MSRP of $4,200.
Left disapointed.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#38 - 2011-11-07 22:50:39 UTC
Party Lips wrote:

they do not have any role at all in the eve economy. ccp just doesn't want to make people angry by removing them.


What's a shame is that the T1 BPC's ME/PE level has on influence on the T2 BPC ME/PE level - which would let inventors (who arguably do a lot more work to compete) with the T2 BPO owners.

It would have to be a rather large conversion rate though - maybe the sqrt() or cube root of the input ME to calculate the output ME, or divide the input ME by 10 to get the output ME. Probably square root would work best as it would scale rather badly and you'd never be able to get perfect ME on your T2 BPCs without over-researching your T1 BPO for a few months.

Output ME = -5 + Int(Sqrt(Input ME))

To get to ME 30 on an output T2 BPC, you'd need a T1 BPC with an ME of 1225. To get an ME of 10 on the T2 BPC, you'd need an ME of 225 on the input BPC. Or the use of a decryptor (which would still be an option).

It would add some spice to the calculations - do you research the BPO to ME 100 and get T2 BPCs with an ME of 5? Or do you go higher and shoot for an ME of 10 on the result?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#39 - 2011-11-07 23:11:55 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Party Lips wrote:

they do not have any role at all in the eve economy. ccp just doesn't want to make people angry by removing them.


What's a shame is that the T1 BPC's ME/PE level has on influence on the T2 BPC ME/PE level - which would let inventors (who arguably do a lot more work to compete) with the T2 BPO owners.

It would have to be a rather large conversion rate though - maybe the sqrt() or cube root of the input ME to calculate the output ME, or divide the input ME by 10 to get the output ME. Probably square root would work best as it would scale rather badly and you'd never be able to get perfect ME on your T2 BPCs without over-researching your T1 BPO for a few monthsyears.

Output ME = -5 + Int(Sqrt(Input ME))

To get to ME 30 on an output T2 BPC, you'd need a T1 BPC with an ME of 1225. To get an ME of 10 on the T2 BPC, you'd need an ME of 225 on the input BPC. Or the use of a decryptor (which would still be an option).

It would add some spice to the calculations - do you research the BPO to ME 100 and get T2 BPCs with an ME of 5? Or do you go higher and shoot for an ME of 10 on the result?


FYP.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
BornToDieAnotherDay
Tarazed Technology
#40 - 2011-11-08 01:50:28 UTC
DarthSyl wrote:

You are missing the point entirely. stuff. Under the current policy its IMPOSSIBLE for every single player to have these
BPO's.


No sir, you are missing the point. You seem to enjoy your metaphors so here's one for you (back to your movie metaphor).

Say Transformers 3 has just been released, and they're selling tickets to the PREMIER. Does everyone have the OPPORTUNITY to go? Yes, they do. Can EVERYONE go? No, they can't. Only those both WILLING and ABLE to pay the price can go.

This is exactly what the situation with T2 BPOs TODAY is. EVERYONE PLAYING/STARTING THIS GAME has EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to obtain these BPOs. This doesn't just occur here, but in real life as well. Consider land ownership, the very first owners, who did they pay? No one, they were at the right place at the right time. You missed the boat and now things have changed? Tough. Have some cookies and milk and get over yourself.

ps. You actually read the entire EULA of every game you play before you started playing?