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[Proposal] - Drone Boats Need Parity With Ships Their Own Class Slot Wise
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#1 - 2013-12-23 22:48:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
Algos - 12
Catalyst - 13

Myrmidon - 16
Brutix - 17

Arbitrator - 13
Omen - 14

Dominix -18
Hyperion - 19

Despite drone boats having a weapon system that can be disabled and easily left behind, it seems tiericide didn't touch them as much in regards to balancing them with vessels their same class. The non-drone ships I listed can still use drones, though they don't have drone bonuses. Note how the Gila when compared to say the Vigilant has the same number of slots [because there is no other guristas cruiser]. This is something I feel the CSM needs to talk to CCP about, balance wise.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2013-12-24 07:07:29 UTC
Uhh, why? droneboats are already pretty strong, why do they need buffing?

And they have a weapon system that doesn't use slots, which is (I think) the reason they have one less...
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#3 - 2013-12-24 14:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
Danika Princip wrote:
Uhh, why? droneboats are already pretty strong, why do they need buffing?

And they have a weapon system that doesn't use slots, which is (I think) the reason they have one less...


So you are saying the Gila should have one less slot and any ships that use drones should also have a extra slot removed?

Ships with a bonus to hybrids for example the thorax can use drones and a ship with a bonus to drones for example the Vexor can use hybrids. Yet somehow the Vexor is penalised for using drones as a weapon system slotwise. What makes drones so special that a ship has to have a slot removed? Hybrids have ammo yet for drone boats, their ammo [drones] can be destroyed. Missiles can be blown up but do you see missile boats with a slot removed?

ECM drones are pretty powerful yet ships with the bandwidth to fit them have the same amount to control as drone ships which is 5. Do droneboats [excepting the Guardian-Vexor] have the ability to control more than non-droneboats who can operate 5 drones at the same time?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2013-12-25 04:14:51 UTC
Droneboats have ALWAYS had one less slot compared to their class counterparts. The DEVs have mentioned once or twice that the sheer versatility of drone boats requires them to lose one slot.

And as an avid drone user, I don't disagree with this. Drone-centric ships are VERY powerful and versitile when used in close-quarters brawls (because unlike a "normal ship" you don't have to fit it around the weapon system).


As for the Gila... if it does indeed have the same amount of slots as its counterparts (can't be bothered to check) then it will indeed lose a slot when the rebalance efforts hit it.

How did you Veterans start?
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#5 - 2013-12-26 05:05:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
ShahFluffers wrote:
Droneboats have ALWAYS had one less slot compared to their class counterparts. The DEVs have mentioned once or twice that the sheer versatility of drone boats requires them to lose one slot.

And as an avid drone user, I don't disagree with this. Drone-centric ships are VERY powerful and versitile when used in close-quarters brawls (because unlike a "normal ship" you don't have to fit it around the weapon system).


As for the Gila... if it does indeed have the same amount of slots as its counterparts (can't be bothered to check) then it will indeed lose a slot when the rebalance efforts hit it.


I cannot say I agree. For one thing the versatility part, is it the drones that make them versatile, in which case what about other ships that can use drones? Saying drones centric ships don't fit around their weapon system is false. People that use drone modules like Drone Damage Amplifiers, Omnidirectional Tracking Links etc, means that people ARE fitting around their weapon system., which are drones. Putting a nos instead of a gun is also fitting around the drone weapon system. Vexors are not the only ship that can fit a nos, thoraxes can too for example. Thoraxes can use drones and hybrids too.

Do people reckon that the Gila is overpowered compared to a vigilant and/or any of the other faction cruisers? Is a navy vexor equal to a GIla and/or vigilant? It would be good to know, because then we can see if a Gila with the same number of slots as a vigilant really needs to lose a slot.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2013-12-27 03:08:50 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Terranid Meester wrote:
I cannot say I agree. For one thing the versatility part, is it the drones that make them versatile, in which case what about other ships that can use drones?

Most ships cannot carry or launch as many drones as a drone-centric ship of the same class. A "normal" ship can usually only carry damage dealing drones... OR only carry Ewar drones. A drone ship can often carry both and/or more.

And those that can carry and launch many drones... they don't get a damage/HP bonus (which really bumps up the damage and staying power of drones).

Terranid Meester wrote:
Saying drones centric ships don't fit around their weapon system is false. People that use drone modules like Drone Damage Amplifiers, Omnidirectional Tracking Links etc, means that people ARE fitting around their weapon system., which are drones. Putting a nos instead of a gun is also fitting around the drone weapon system. Vexors are not the only ship that can fit a nos, thoraxes can too for example. Thoraxes can use drones and hybrids too.

Cute. But can you also fit multiple remote reps, Ewar, and utility on a Thorax without sacrificing much in terms of DPS and/or tank and/or point defense? What about an Omen? Or a Rupture? Can a Caracal do this?

A Vexor can be fit with remote repairs, Ewar, utility, and a stiff tank at the same time without giving up any of its "baseline" dps (some 300+ with level 5 skills)... and can also carry spare drones for point defense and/or more Ewar.

Terranid Meester wrote:
Do people reckon that the Gila is overpowered compared to a vigilant and/or any of the other faction cruisers? Is a navy vexor equal to a GIla and/or vigilant? It would be good to know, because then we can see if a Gila with the same number of slots as a vigilant really needs to lose a slot.

The Gila has problems that are not related to drones or having one more or one less slot. It needs buffs in various areas (see: it needs more PG and CPU) and, as I stated before, it probably will lose one slot because the DEVs feel it is necessary due to all the extra versatility drone ships have.

With that said... except for tanking ability, the Vexor Navy blows the Gila out of the water. It's faster, has a drone tracking and speed bonus, and it's cheaper.

How did you Veterans start?
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#7 - 2013-12-28 18:40:33 UTC
Regarding the Gila
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.


    • ShahFluffers/ wrote:

    And those that can carry and launch many drones... they don't get a damage/HP bonus (which really bumps up the damage and staying power of drones).


    They don't need the damage and/or hp bonus for drones when they have their own damage bonuses for their weapon systems and any hp bonuses they also have. Drone ships may be versatile in the type of drones they can carry but ships that use ammo can be versatile in the type of ammo they carry and there is also the fact that ships can at most control 5 drones at the same time. If a drone ship and a non-drone ship can use ecm drones which one has the advantage in regards to having the greater ability of using drones. Stasis drones etc. Drones can be webbed, can't do that to barrage. Non-sentry drones are pretty easy to outrun and drones also face the dangers of bombs and smartbombs [I do know missiles get blown up by smartbombs but its not really something that missile users concern themselves much with].

    Now I not too certain about Thorax [I don't use them] remote rep abilities but I do know Deimos's have used it with good effect
    ShahFluffers
    Ice Fire Warriors
    #8 - 2013-12-28 19:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
    Terranid Meester wrote:
    Regarding the Gila
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.

    • They said that about the Amarrian battleships too... then they were all tweaked and modified a bit.

    Terranid Meester wrote:
    ShahFluffers wrote:

    And those that can carry and launch many drones... they don't get a damage/HP bonus (which really bumps up the damage and staying power of drones).

    They don't need the damage and/or hp bonus for drones when they have their own damage bonuses for their weapon systems and any hp bonuses they also have.

    But that means that the ship is not drone-centric and that drones are merely a supplementary force... the same way turrets/missiles are act on droneboats.

    Terranid Meester wrote:
    Drone ships may be versatile in the type of drones they can carry but ships that use ammo can be versatile in the type of ammo they carry and there is also the fact that ships can at most control 5 drones at the same time.

    Not exactly true. You can swap ammos all you want on a turret ship... but that adaptiveness is very limited. Barrage, Null, and Scorch increase range, but cut tracking and offer limited damage. Hail, Void, and Conflag increase damage, but cut range and tracking. All the other ammo types either increase range at the cost of damage or cut range for more damage.
    And none of them will affect a turret's sensor resolution.
    Basically... it would be like being stuck using only one class of drone (light, medium, or heavy) all the time against all opponents.

    A drone ship doesn't have this issue. If you are fighting battleships, use heavy drones. If you are fighting cruisers, medium drones will apply their damage better. If you are fighting frigates, light drones will keep up with and track them. Facing a foe you cannot win against? Throw out ECM drones and align out.
    You can't do all of the above with a dedicated turret/missile ship. You have to make tradeoffs in the fit itself.


    As for the other stuff you mentioned...
    - webbing drones are terribad. I experimented with them for a long time and found out that each web they apply to a target is stacking penalized with all the other webbing drones. Even with the heavy version (which has a 20% web), five of them won't exceed more than a ~35% reduction in a target ship's speed. So no one, be it a gun/missileship or droneboat will EVER use these things.
    The same applies for all other Combat utility and Ewar drones (except ECM drones).

    - How often do you see someone seriously use a smartbomb outside of pipbombing/disco tactics and capital warfare? I can only remember two instances in the last 2 months... and they were nublets.

    - Deimos' can't use RR tactics without giving up some of their guns (they don't have a utility high-slot anymore). They do have a nasty self-repair bonus though... but if you fit the ship around that then you have to downgrade the guns. An Ishtar doesn't have to choose between dealing damage or tanking... it can do both... it can even do remote repairs as well!!

    How did you Veterans start?
    Terranid Meester
    Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
    #9 - 2014-01-01 15:01:19 UTC
    ShahFluffers wrote:

    But that means that the ship is not drone-centric and that drones are merely a supplementary force... the same way turrets/missiles are act on droneboats.


    So one gets a supplementary force of drones and yet gets a extra slot while the one with the supplementary force of guns and gets 1 less.

    Consider also the instant damage of guns [less for missiles and rockets of course] compared to drones which a lot of the time have to travel to range of their target. Add also the range of missile and turret damage rigs while drone boats have none.

    Regarding ammo I think that ammo can indeed be used to engage different class sizes. You switch to void, in a small ship to engage cruisers and above while null/antimatter is for small stuff.
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #10 - 2014-01-02 19:55:47 UTC

    Which drone boat "needs" another slot?

    Seriously, lets compare the ships you just listed:
    Algos - 12
    Catalyst - 13
    -- Algos is already the highset damage dessie in the game, and it has range over the catalyst.

    Myrmidon - 16
    Brutix - 17
    --- Both of these are very powerful ships on par with each other. Do you really think the Myrm needs an extra highslot to be competitive?

    Arbitrator - 13
    Omen - 14
    --- Granted, these are different types of cruisers, but the arby can easily compete here without need for another highslot!

    Dominix -18
    Hyperion - 19
    --- Again, the Domi is very potent compared to the Hyperion and/or Mega. It doesn't need another highslot, and giving it one is too much.

    None of the listed "short-slotted" ships are hurting in the metagame, despite being short one slot. This is because drone boats are very versatile, and very powerful. Why do they need that extra slot?
    Veshta Yoshida
    PIE Inc.
    Khimi Harar
    #11 - 2014-01-02 23:15:34 UTC
    Let him have the slot but take away the ability to fit offensive weaponry in the high-slots ...

    One should be careful what one asks for around here, never know which Dev is the next to snap and push the wrong button for the right reasons Smile
    ShahFluffers
    Ice Fire Warriors
    #12 - 2014-01-03 02:17:25 UTC
    Terranid Meester wrote:
    So one gets a supplementary force of drones and yet gets a extra slot while the one with the supplementary force of guns and gets 1 less.

    Yep.
    Plus, drone boats get a MUCH larger drone bay to store "spares" and other types of drones that can do different things (e.g. my Dominix can use Sentries... then Heavies... then Lights... and finally light ECM drones with plenty of room for spares! On the other hand, my Megathron is limited to using only 3 Heavy/Sentry drones... or 5 Mediums with a backup of Lights).

    Terranid Meester wrote:
    Consider also the instant damage of guns [less for missiles and rockets of course] compared to drones which a lot of the time have to travel to range of their target. Add also the range of missile and turret damage rigs while drone boats have none.

    I have considered it and counter with drones requiring no CPU, Powergrid, or capacitor power from the "mothership" itself. There are also Sentry drones for ranged tactics (they apply their damage just like a turret does).

    I will agree though that more diverse options in drone rigs and implants are needed.

    Terranid Meester wrote:
    Regarding ammo I think that ammo can indeed be used to engage different class sizes. You switch to void, in a small ship to engage cruisers and above while null/antimatter is for small stuff.

    Assuming we are using a Light Electron Blaster for reference...
    Switching to Void ammo from Faction Antimatter would be akin to swapping an Acolyte for a Hobgoblin. Your damage goes up a bit... but you are still technically using a "light" weapon.

    A Vexor can use Medium and Light drones with equal proficiency. That would be akin to a Thorax being able to switch between Light Electron Blasters and Heavy Electron Blasters at will and apply its hull bonuses to both.

    How did you Veterans start?
    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle1
    #13 - 2014-01-06 18:31:56 UTC
    Drone boats are well-balanced at this point in time. No need for the extra slot.