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Drones Online

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GazBoi08
x13
Pandemic Horde
#101 - 2013-12-24 11:01:45 UTC
i was there..
Zulu Death Mask
Yaxchilan
#102 - 2013-12-24 11:03:38 UTC
GazBoi08 wrote:
i was there..


Likewise... I wish I wasn't :(
GazBoi08
x13
Pandemic Horde
#103 - 2013-12-24 11:05:41 UTC
Zulu Death Mask wrote:
GazBoi08 wrote:
i was there..


Likewise... I wish I wasn't :(


oh yeah it sucked, got to whore on a load of ceptors though so v0v
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#104 - 2013-12-24 11:10:49 UTC
I Love Boobies wrote:
Definitely something the old DD could do something about. Boom... no more drones.


And just watch as TiDi disappears ...

Its one of the most stupid things that CCP seem to be ignoring. Slowcat is a lovely tactic, but its **** for the issue at hand.

200 Slows and 2000 sentries. I'm sorry - BUT GET YOU FINGER OUT CCP FFS - its Zombies'R'US with the playerbase taking part literally watching a movie while playing. Yes - I did exactly that.

If they cant see that this is one of the primary reasons things are breaking, one of the reasons FCs use it, knowing that the 'in/out' nature of the drones themselves causes massive fluctuations. Are they truly stupid? You dont need 2000 people to crack a server. Just a few hundred zombies and one person driving. Why the hell should CFC respond to it when they know its crucifying the server its being done on.

Solve this soon, how?

Without destroying the tactic. Drones on Carriers - make them deploy for a minimum of 2 minutes. Make them take 2 to return. Make returning them unabortable. Gives bombing and other tactics a chance. But it still makes carriers (non DPS uber logi) stay as DPS uber logi.

To destroying the tactic. You can only drone assist your squad leader. One person can only control 15 drones max. Anything to get away from making eve as crap as this.
iskflakes
#105 - 2013-12-24 11:53:09 UTC
Rab See wrote:
Without destroying the tactic. Drones on Carriers - make them deploy for a minimum of 2 minutes. Make them take 2 to return. Make returning them unabortable. Gives bombing and other tactics a chance. But it still makes carriers (non DPS uber logi) stay as DPS uber logi.

To destroying the tactic. You can only drone assist your squad leader. One person can only control 15 drones max. Anything to get away from making eve as crap as this.


Adding MWDs to sentries so they could actually return would solve any lag issues introduced by drones. Literally the only reason sentries are launched and abandoned is because it's _not possible_ to recall them.

-
Zulu Death Mask
Yaxchilan
#106 - 2013-12-24 12:32:40 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Rab See wrote:
Without destroying the tactic. Drones on Carriers - make them deploy for a minimum of 2 minutes. Make them take 2 to return. Make returning them unabortable. Gives bombing and other tactics a chance. But it still makes carriers (non DPS uber logi) stay as DPS uber logi.

To destroying the tactic. You can only drone assist your squad leader. One person can only control 15 drones max. Anything to get away from making eve as crap as this.


Adding MWDs to sentries so they could actually return would solve any lag issues introduced by drones.


So make sentries into drones?

iskflakes wrote:

Literally the only reason sentries are launched and abandoned is because it's _not possible_ to recall them.

[/quote]

Yes of course... and everyone lived happily ever after. The End.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2013-12-24 12:46:41 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Rab See wrote:
Without destroying the tactic. Drones on Carriers - make them deploy for a minimum of 2 minutes. Make them take 2 to return. Make returning them unabortable. Gives bombing and other tactics a chance. But it still makes carriers (non DPS uber logi) stay as DPS uber logi.

To destroying the tactic. You can only drone assist your squad leader. One person can only control 15 drones max. Anything to get away from making eve as crap as this.


Adding MWDs to sentries so they could actually return would solve any lag issues introduced by drones. Literally the only reason sentries are launched and abandoned is because it's _not possible_ to recall them.

Not sure it's quite so easy. MWD speed would have to be balanced such that it would make sense to recall them over a wide range of distances instead of abandoning them and dropping more, yet it wouldn't make sense to recall drones over bombs because they're unlikely to get to you (again over a wide range of distances) before the bombs explode.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Mellivora Nulla Irrumabo
#108 - 2013-12-24 13:50:48 UTC
Zulu Death Mask wrote:

The fight the screenshot was taken in was with ~1000 people in local.
Are you saying we should regard drones and players equal in the fight for bandwidth allocation ?

Also about the mentality. Whose mentality?.. the one who brings 1k nerds in subcaps or the one who brings 400nerds in capitals/supers +thousands upon thousands of drones?



You can start with your own mentality, also where are the IT nerds that used to inhabit this cold dark universe that had half a brain cell dedicated to logic and not halfwit mouth piecing some popular failblogs.

TiDi does not fix any bandwidth allocation problem, wich is not the issue at hart here anyway. the issue is in the architecture of the Eve Online cluster (look it up there is an article about it making it in the top 500 supercomputer clusters).

CCP also have explained that a node crash is most often a CPU issue where the calculations needed to allow players to do stuff (like pressing F1 monkey style) are queued and then run out of queue thus stopping the processes that keep a node up.

Sometimes these fights happen unannounced and lo and behold a node that had multiple systems running suddenly has thousands of those people doing silly things. You are not the only ones on that node when you pile head first into these nullsec systems duking it out till downtime or crash.

TiDi slows you down allowing the CPU to catch up on all those actions all the while keeping track of who pressed F1 first so you don't get killed by someone showing up hours later than you like in the olden days.

PS: Bah Humbug to you for making me feel old and bitter I grew seven more grey hairs typing this.
Vembuvend
State War Academy
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-12-24 13:56:23 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Zulu Death Mask wrote:
Good post... and it's the same thing now... CFC won't use their caps/supers

Right, which is exactly why we're rolling out a dreadnought doctrine for the entire coalition.
We won't use our caps, so we're telling people to train a cap.


If slowcats are countered by nags, which they are, and goonswarm is developing a nag fleet, which they are, why do I see 10 "nerf slowcat" threads every day? It seems like everything is working as intended (though drone assist could do with slightly more interaction).

Because Nags are countered by titans and guess who wins number wise there.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#110 - 2013-12-24 14:01:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
baltec1 wrote:
Its not the timers, its the billions of HP people have to burn through when attacking sov structures.


No, it is the timers.

The timers are what create an incentive for a giant blobbed showdown.

It's gameplay that says "show up at this time! bring as much as possible or the enemy will take your space right then."

Nariya Kentaya wrote:
if there are no timers, then everything can just be burned on the spot


I don't see how this follows. You're basically inventing a crappy sov system mechanic, and using that as a strawman argument in support of timers.

There is absolutely no reason why a lack of timers would allow everything to be "burned on the spot." It does not follow in any way.

Nariya Kentaya wrote:
meaning that an alliance will wait until their enemy si in their least active timezone, burn and take EVERYTHING, then lose it when they start logging off and the enxt alliance stronger in the next timezone takes their sov, repeat, repeat until people just stop caring about sov


No. This the definition of a strawman. A lack of timers in no way makes this the outcome.

This would only become the outcome if you took our current sov system, and the ONLY change you made was to remove the timers.

Obviously that would not be sufficient, because the HP-based structure objectives and timers go hand-in-hand. Both are crappy, both need to go...

Basically, burning down structures is "easy" so to prevent it from happening too quickly, they added timers. Horrible band-aid solution.
Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Mellivora Nulla Irrumabo
#111 - 2013-12-24 14:08:52 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not the timers, its the billions of HP people have to burn through when attacking sov structures.


No, it is the timers.

The timers are what create an incentive for a giant blobbed showdown.

It's gameplay that says "show up at this time! bring as much as possible or the enemy will take your space right then."

[quote=Nariya Kentaya]if there are no timers, then everything can just be burned on the spot



Note, there did not used to be timers at all, and people were complaining all the time on how easy time zoning the takeovers were, hence the friggin timers to prevent sleepy people to wake up in a hostile owned station.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#112 - 2013-12-24 14:11:47 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Pinky Hops wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not the timers, its the billions of HP people have to burn through when attacking sov structures.


No, it is the timers.

The timers are what create an incentive for a giant blobbed showdown.

It's gameplay that says "show up at this time! bring as much as possible or the enemy will take your space right then."



No, timers only allow people to be able to defend their space.

We bring blobs because we have to burn through millions of sheild, armour and structure HP per stucture. To fully take a system can involve taking down several dosen structures. Go and try taking down a large pos in a solo BS sometime.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#113 - 2013-12-24 14:14:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not the timers, its the billions of HP people have to burn through when attacking sov structures.


No, it is the timers.

The timers are what create an incentive for a giant blobbed showdown.

It's gameplay that says "show up at this time! bring as much as possible or the enemy will take your space right then."



No, timers only allow people to be able to defend their space.

We bring blobs because we have to burn through million of sheild, armour and structure HP. Go and try taking down a large pos in a solo BS sometime.


Having a clear timing window incentivizes giant blobs.

I don't know how anybody can argue otherwise.

It basically means the only way you are allowed to attack, gives your opponent a giant heads-up and says "bring the massive all-in fleet at 0800."

If you ever played RTS, timing windows dictate the pace of the game, and prompt giant all-in blobs in much the same fashion.

I am not saying the current system would be good if you just removed timers and kept everything else the same.

I am saying that the reason people blob to the max, is specifically because of timers.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#114 - 2013-12-24 14:22:34 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


Having a clear timing window incentivizes giant blobs.

I don't know how anybody can argue otherwise.

It basically means the only way you are allowed to attack, gives your opponent a giant heads-up and says "bring the massive all-in fleet at 0800."

If you ever played RTS, timing windows dictate the pace of the game, and prompt giant all-in blobs in much the same fashion.

I am not saying the current system would be good if you just removed timers and kept everything else the same.

I am saying that the reason people blob to the max, is specifically because of timers.



We form full fleets at the drop of a hat when supers get tackled.

We form large fleets to ATTACK structures, no timers at all.

I'll tell you again, we form massive blobs to deal with grinding through the huge amount of structure HP
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#115 - 2013-12-24 14:35:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
[We form full fleets at the drop of a hat when supers get tackled.

We form large fleets to ATTACK structures, no timers at all.

I'll tell you again, we form massive blobs to deal with grinding through the huge amount of structure HP


"Large" fleets do not cause node crashes. Multiple enormous fleets cause node crashes.

The last time a node crashed was when a reinforcement timer was ending, incentivizing both parties to bring as much ships and fleets as possible...Because ownership of the system was being determined at that direct timing window.

Even if node capacity was doubled, the node would still crash in these circumstances, because people will just keep bringing more and more stuff until the node crashes...

As again, that's when ownership is determined.

As long as ownership is determined by timing windows, you will get giant death-blobs of node crash.

It's really not that hard to understand.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#116 - 2013-12-24 14:44:23 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


"Large" fleets do not cause node crashes. Multiple enormous fleets cause node crashes.

The last time a node crashed was when a reinforcement timer was ending, incentivizing both parties to bring as much ships and fleets as possible...Because ownership of the system was being determined at that direct timing window.

Even if node capacity was doubled, the node would still crash in these circumstances, because people will just keep bringing more and more stuff until the node crashes...

As again, that's when ownership is determined.

As long as ownership is determined by timing windows, you will get giant death-blobs of node crash.

It's really not that hard to understand.


The nodes are crashing because of the number of drones being used these days. We have had far far bigger fights for years in every war including fountain.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2013-12-24 14:46:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:


"Large" fleets do not cause node crashes. Multiple enormous fleets cause node crashes.

The last time a node crashed was when a reinforcement timer was ending, incentivizing both parties to bring as much ships and fleets as possible...Because ownership of the system was being determined at that direct timing window.

Even if node capacity was doubled, the node would still crash in these circumstances, because people will just keep bringing more and more stuff until the node crashes...

As again, that's when ownership is determined.

As long as ownership is determined by timing windows, you will get giant death-blobs of node crash.

It's really not that hard to understand.


The nodes are crashing because of the number of drones being used these days. We have had far far bigger fights for years in every war including fountain.


There wouldn't ever be this kind of problem without the timing windows. It just wouldn't happen.

People cannot apply a continuum of aggression to attack. The only way to attack in this game is to force a timing window and blob the **** out of it.

It's poor design.

I understand that as a goon, it's to your advantage to want to be able to put your entire coalition into a single system -- but that's clearly not good for the game.

Try to think bigger than your own silly little group.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#118 - 2013-12-24 14:48:46 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


There wouldn't ever be this kind of problem without the timing windows. It just wouldn't happen.

People cannot apply a continuum of aggression to attack. The only way to attack in this game is to force a timing window and blob the **** out of it.

It's poor design.

I understand that as a goon, it's to your advantage to want to be able to put your entire coalition into a single system -- but that's clearly not good for the game.


The battle of Asakai, one of the largest engagements in EVE history happened with no timer involved.

Timers have nothing at all to do with these node deaths.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#119 - 2013-12-24 14:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
baltec1 wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:


There wouldn't ever be this kind of problem without the timing windows. It just wouldn't happen.

People cannot apply a continuum of aggression to attack. The only way to attack in this game is to force a timing window and blob the **** out of it.

It's poor design.

I understand that as a goon, it's to your advantage to want to be able to put your entire coalition into a single system -- but that's clearly not good for the game.


The battle of Asakai, one of the largest engagements in EVE history happened with no timer involved.

Timers have nothing at all to do with these node deaths.


One counter-example doesn't disprove the trend.

Do you disagree that timers are an incentive to have the biggest and baddest blob possible to either take ownership of a system or keep ownership as structures are coming out of reinforce?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2013-12-24 14:54:26 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


One counter-example doesn't disprove the trend.

Do you disagree that timers are an incentive to have the biggest and baddest blob possible to either take ownership of a system or keep ownership as structures are coming out of reinforce?


I do disagree.

Tell me, would you take 10 guys to burn through an outposts armour, taking most of the day to do it and needing several ammo runs or take several hundred and get it done in 30 min?