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The destroyer buff
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Razin
The Scope
#21 - 2011-11-07 14:55:29 UTC
Sniperdoc wrote:
Alsyth wrote:
With their decreased sig and massive dps/EHP buff, they can murder cruisers and some BCs now, that's a bit overpowered in my opinion. An AB thrasher can solo any med-sized gunship if they can orbit close and kill its drones.


Yes. I found the same. You can actually use a destroyer to solo cruisers now as well. So, a BIT overpowered.
You can solo cruisers in some frigates. Let's nerf them also.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#22 - 2011-11-07 14:57:46 UTC
Razin wrote:
Sniperdoc wrote:
Alsyth wrote:
With their decreased sig and massive dps/EHP buff, they can murder cruisers and some BCs now, that's a bit overpowered in my opinion. An AB thrasher can solo any med-sized gunship if they can orbit close and kill its drones.


Yes. I found the same. You can actually use a destroyer to solo cruisers now as well. So, a BIT overpowered.
You can solo cruisers in some frigates. Let's nerf them also.


Don't forget you can use a cruiser to solo a battlecruiser. Oh, and you can murder a battleship with certain battlecruisers too!

Katrina Oniseki
Zircon Dasher
#23 - 2011-11-08 05:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
It would have been nice to have done something that closed the achievment gap between thrashers and all others.

Thrasher already was pretty balanced in the sub-cruiser catagory. Most of these changes exceed balance.

but whatever. There is no official feedback thread so either CCP doesnt care or we are getting trolled with the current changes.

I just have one question:

Which will we see first
1) "OMG NERF DESTROYERS!!!!111" whine threads
2) " OMG BUFF MY AF/SHINY BECAUSE THEY DIE TO DESTROYERS!!!!!111" whine threads
3)" I DEMAND ALL STATS ON MY DIC TO BE AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN T1!!!!111" whine threads

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-11-08 07:03:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jiji Hamin
tbf if they take away the RoF bonus they should make sig BIGGER to make there be a strong sense of order in the universe in which big ships **** dessies and dessies **** frigs. i'm not saying that because i think bigger ships should always win, i'm say that because it is the core concept behind destroyers. let frigates keep their monopoly on being ******* annoying to hit from bigger ships.


Quote:
I just have one question:

Which will we see first
1) "OMG NERF DESTROYERS!!!!111" whine threads
2) " OMG BUFF MY AF/SHINY BECAUSE THEY DIE TO DESTROYERS!!!!!111" whine threads
3)" I DEMAND ALL STATS ON MY DIC TO BE AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN T1!!!!111" whine threads


ugh god why does everyone who plays eve just suck (probs 2 because people are already screaming that while their AFs are capable of getting kills, 3 seems unlikely cause dic pilots tend not to be amongst the lowest common denomenator of eve pilots.)
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#25 - 2011-11-08 11:41:27 UTC
The sig buff and hp buff was a mistake for sure. ROF buff is all dessies needed.
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-11-08 12:05:16 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
The sig buff and hp buff was a mistake for sure. ROF buff is all dessies needed.


Of course not. In any decent fleet engagement, each side is going to get cleansed of destroyers within the first 2 minutes, EHP/sigres buff or not. Think of all the Snipalots, Artycanes, Drakes and whatever who are going to see any enemy destroyer as a two-salvoes killmail...
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Stay Feral
#27 - 2011-11-08 12:24:59 UTC
The point of destroyers was always supposed to be providing larger ships a screen against smaller ships. In CCP's grand vision of a fleet, combined arms is the order of the day - you don't just have a megablob of one ship type, you have every type of ship, performing the role they were supposed to play. Destroyers protect cruisers and battleships against frigates so that those cruisers and battleships don't have to field anti-frigate countermeasures, allowing them to perform their intended role more effectively.

Destroyers having a high damage output but no capacity to limit enemy mobility makes them fit into this role perfectly. It is up to them to either destroy enemy frigates or force them to disengage, keeping larger ships safe from them. This is right and proper. Giving them a second mid-slot would make them overpowered - this would make frigates obselete, but as it stands, any frigate facing a destroyer one-on-one will have the ability to disengage as it wishes.

One small change I'd make is a slight tweak to destroyer sig radius to make them more vulnerable to cruiser-scale weaponry. They should be deadly against frigates, but very vulnerable to larger ships.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Zircon Dasher
#28 - 2011-11-08 16:00:06 UTC
Jiji Hamin wrote:
probs 2 because people are already screaming that while their AFs are capable of getting kills, 3 seems unlikely cause dic pilots tend not to be amongst the lowest common denomenator of eve pilots.)


2 was my guess too.

3 probably wont get dedicated thread anytime soon, but if the sig decrease is as effective as people think it is (i have doubts), then the survivability increases dramatically for destroyers. Given the flying coffin status of dic's, eventually people will start asking for decreases in sig too.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Razin
The Scope
#29 - 2011-11-08 16:09:11 UTC
Jiji Hamin wrote:
tbf if they take away the RoF bonus they should make sig BIGGER to make there be a strong sense of order in the universe in which big ships **** dessies and dessies **** frigs. i'm not saying that because i think bigger ships should always win, i'm say that because it is the core concept behind destroyers. let frigates keep their monopoly on being ******* annoying to hit from bigger ships.

Do you have some SISI testing data to show the validity of your concern?
Dro Nee
#30 - 2011-11-08 22:20:29 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
Since there doesn't seem to be a thread on this, I'll start one. IMO, the changes currently on SiSi are massively over the top; the new destroyers are so good as to render almost all frigates pointless. This is largely because of the removal of the ROF penalty As it stands on TQ, a thrasher is a credible threat to almost any frigate, t1 or t2; the problem is that the others fall some way short. However, this isn't really for want of (potential) DPS; it's much more to do with a lack of fitting room and, in the case of the catalyst and coercer, slot layout. As it stands, the changes don't address the core issue with the coercer (ships with one mid: still stupid and pointless after all these years) and go way overboard with the other three. The aim should have been to leave the thrasher more or less unchanged and bring the other three up to its level rather than boosting them all some way above it. My fear is that if the SiSi changes go live on TQ, they're going to kill off a lot of the variety in frigate pvp without really having any beneficial effects on diversity in larger fleets.

TL;DR: keep the increased fitting room and sig radius reduction, restore the ROF penalty, give the coercer a second mid.



After playing around I have to agree that SISI destroyers are likely to kill off variety in frig PVP. Keeping the fitting and sig bonus is good. I would halv the RoF penalty instead of getting rid of it completely though.
Adunh Slavy
#31 - 2011-11-08 23:42:03 UTC
Got a destroyer infestation? Bring cruisers.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Razin
The Scope
#32 - 2011-11-09 00:24:20 UTC
Dro Nee wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
Since there doesn't seem to be a thread on this, I'll start one. IMO, the changes currently on SiSi are massively over the top; the new destroyers are so good as to render almost all frigates pointless. This is largely because of the removal of the ROF penalty As it stands on TQ, a thrasher is a credible threat to almost any frigate, t1 or t2; the problem is that the others fall some way short. However, this isn't really for want of (potential) DPS; it's much more to do with a lack of fitting room and, in the case of the catalyst and coercer, slot layout. As it stands, the changes don't address the core issue with the coercer (ships with one mid: still stupid and pointless after all these years) and go way overboard with the other three. The aim should have been to leave the thrasher more or less unchanged and bring the other three up to its level rather than boosting them all some way above it. My fear is that if the SiSi changes go live on TQ, they're going to kill off a lot of the variety in frigate pvp without really having any beneficial effects on diversity in larger fleets.

TL;DR: keep the increased fitting room and sig radius reduction, restore the ROF penalty, give the coercer a second mid.



After playing around I have to agree that SISI destroyers are likely to kill off variety in frig PVP. Keeping the fitting and sig bonus is good. I would halv the RoF penalty instead of getting rid of it completely though.

Why not read the thread before posting?
Mirei Jun
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2011-11-09 01:58:41 UTC
Couldn't disagree with the OP more.

Been playing this game for years and Destroyers have never been able to fill their role as an anti-frig platform... Until now.

Before these changes it was possible to easily kill destroyers... In frigates class ships. They were no threat at all (the thrasher being the lone exception and even that was quite kill-able).

This is the right change for them. Its a long time coming, and its perfect.

Destros were high risk, mediocre damage. They are now high risk, high damage. This is what they should be.

GJ CCP
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#34 - 2011-11-09 02:04:03 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
Since there doesn't seem to be a thread on this, I'll start one. IMO, the changes currently on SiSi are massively over the top; the new destroyers are so good as to render almost all frigates pointless. This is largely because of the removal of the ROF penalty As it stands on TQ, a thrasher is a credible threat to almost any frigate, t1 or t2; the problem is that the others fall some way short. However, this isn't really for want of (potential) DPS; it's much more to do with a lack of fitting room and, in the case of the catalyst and coercer, slot layout. As it stands, the changes don't address the core issue with the coercer (ships with one mid: still stupid and pointless after all these years) and go way overboard with the other three. The aim should have been to leave the thrasher more or less unchanged and bring the other three up to its level rather than boosting them all some way above it. My fear is that if the SiSi changes go live on TQ, they're going to kill off a lot of the variety in frigate pvp without really having any beneficial effects on diversity in larger fleets.

TL;DR: keep the increased fitting room and sig radius reduction, restore the ROF penalty, give the coercer a second mid.

Yes and no. The speed, ehp and sig changes are greatly appreciated, and the coercer really needs a mid, but the dps of all dessies is now simply too high. It's fantastic news for new players and especially budding FW pilots as they can gather a gang of scrubs and do pretty insane damage that fits their wallets. I'm betting that there will be active repping Catalyst and Cormorant fits that will be so OP, they will be nigh on invincible in small fights.

Time to explode my rifters, I think.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#35 - 2011-11-09 09:44:11 UTC
The destroyers are excellent anti-frigate platforms that put out high dps, but gets torn apart by bigger ships and other destroyers. The life expectancy of destroyers will be much shorter than any other ship, but with the damage buff they will be worth using and losing.
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#36 - 2011-11-09 16:26:13 UTC
Destroyers have spent the last couple of years as salvage boats.

That's right - mobile dumpsters.

Its high time they reprised their role. That they can pwn frigates? Well whatdya know - that's what they're for.

Keep the changes.

C.
Zircon Dasher
#37 - 2011-11-09 16:40:28 UTC
The number of people in this thread who have obviously not flown destroyers is pretty funny.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Mitsu Blutz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2011-11-09 23:09:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mitsu Blutz
remove the penalty rof on destroyer t1 and give a sig bonus to the entire destroyer hull class

my dictor need a lower sig QQ!!!
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#39 - 2011-11-09 23:55:07 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

One small change I'd make is a slight tweak to destroyer sig radius to make them more vulnerable to cruiser-scale weaponry. They should be deadly against frigates, but very vulnerable to larger ships.


Trust me. They are vulnerable against larger ships and easily die to medium gunnery. Any more vulnerable and they won't work at all in the mixed fleet situation you so eloquently described, and a concept I agree with you on.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Zircon Dasher
#40 - 2011-11-11 16:05:55 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
It would have been nice to have done something that closed the achievment gap between thrashers and all others.

Thrasher already was pretty balanced in the sub-cruiser catagory. Most of these changes exceed balance.

but whatever. There is no official feedback thread so either CCP doesnt care or we are getting trolled with the current changes.

I just have one question:

Which will we see first
1) "OMG NERF DESTROYERS!!!!111" whine threads
2) " OMG BUFF MY AF/SHINY BECAUSE THEY DIE TO DESTROYERS!!!!!111" whine threads
3)" I DEMAND ALL STATS ON MY DIC TO BE AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN T1!!!!111" whine threads



Looks like 3) is the winner!!!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=32492&find=unread

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.