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NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
#161 - 2014-01-02 13:52:02 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
No need to 'shield' them forever. Just long enough to give them a chance to get to know the game enough to love it.


But they are already shielded to a certain extent.
Rookie systems, cant bait them, cant scam them, cant gank them, or duel bait them.
Outside of rookie systems...If someone is making a habbit of going after new players (like trying to bait them outside of rookie systems on a regular basis) CCP will have a chat with you.

This "protection" lasts for 30 days.

Anything beyond that... Research is needed to actually survive in EVE. If someone chooses to not do any form or research, or read up on the game and the consequences..well honestly thats their own fault, not CCP or the community's fault, and players that expect to be hand held from day one generally make poor EVE players anyway (in my opinion).

Phoibe Enterprises

The Eve Reader -  Audio Recordings of Eve Chronicles
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#162 - 2014-01-02 13:57:33 UTC
NightCrawler 85 wrote:
I will fully admit i only read the first 2 or 3 pages, so this might already have been mentioned.

So far i have seen a lot of older players saying that new players are leaving because of this and that, that no one (or few) are staying, and that CCP needs to change things because obviously its not working.

And, i cant agree.
EVE has never been the kind of game that everyone, or even most, people can get into. Thats what makes the game unique, makes the people you play with "special". Sure most of the people that start the game quit within 6 months, but the ones that do stay often end up being highly addicted and stay around for years.
If EVE became "mainstream" i think some of the uniqueness would disappear, and a lot of the "atmosphere" would go with it.

No matter how much CCP changes the new player experience this wont change unless CCP drastically changes the game as a whole, and in that case you can say good bye to a lot of the vets (not counting the ones that keeps their accounts active just to make sure the skill que is still going).

For many of you, you started before CCP improved the tutorials, made it so "safe" to be a new player (thinking about the no scamming/ganking/baiting rules, that now also is applied to non rookie systems), and you managed to fight trough it and learned to love EVE for what it is, ruthless, harsh, frustrating, aggravating and annoyingly addictive.

Of course after some years you get burned out, you get bored, you want new things to do, but that has nothing to do with new players and why they leave, so a completely separate discussion all together.

So, what can be done to help new players?
Don't put all the responsibility on CCP. When you come across a new player help them out, answer questions, hang around in the help channel, warn the noob that is about to get scammed in Jita local, blow them up and then tell them what they could have done differently, point them towards corporations you know that can help that player learn.

EVE needs to remain harsh, but that does not mean that the players cant stop going "yarr" for a few minutes and remember how lost they felt when they first started Blink


Surely that is compatible with some guys getting TMC headlines because a reverse awox aimed at hisec noobs turned into a full blown corporate theft. Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#163 - 2014-01-02 14:09:12 UTC
NightCrawler 85 wrote:
I will fully admit i only read the first 2 or 3 pages, so this might already have been mentioned.

So far i have seen a lot of older players saying that new players are leaving because of this and that, that no one (or few) are staying, and that CCP needs to change things because obviously its not working.

And, i cant agree.
EVE has never been the kind of game that everyone, or even most, people can get into. Thats what makes the game unique, makes the people you play with "special". Sure most of the people that start the game quit within 6 months, but the ones that do stay often end up being highly addicted and stay around for years.
If EVE became "mainstream" i think some of the uniqueness would disappear, and a lot of the "atmosphere" would go with it.

No matter how much CCP changes the new player experience this wont change unless CCP drastically changes the game as a whole, and in that case you can say good bye to a lot of the vets (not counting the ones that keeps their accounts active just to make sure the skill que is still going).

For many of you, you started before CCP improved the tutorials, made it so "safe" to be a new player (thinking about the no scamming/ganking/baiting rules, that now also is applied to non rookie systems), and you managed to fight trough it and learned to love EVE for what it is, ruthless, harsh, frustrating, aggravating and annoyingly addictive.

Of course after some years you get burned out, you get bored, you want new things to do, but that has nothing to do with new players and why they leave, so a completely separate discussion all together.

So, what can be done to help new players?
Don't put all the responsibility on CCP. When you come across a new player help them out, answer questions, hang around in the help channel, warn the noob that is about to get scammed in Jita local, blow them up and then tell them what they could have done differently, point them towards corporations you know that can help that player learn.

EVE needs to remain harsh, but that does not mean that the players cant stop going "yarr" for a few minutes and remember how lost they felt when they first started Blink


This post.....is the best post i've read on here in a very very long time. You damn near restored my faith in humanity lol. Screw the "like" button, we need an "OMG, this guy actually gets it" button Big smile.

You expose a very important point: EVE is special and some of these "EVE is dying and needs to change to attract new people" folks don't understand that EVE is unique (and continues to exist) for much the same reason it turns off most people.

Look at EVE's history. 10+ years of being a game that turns away most of the people who try it yet it still makes a profit for it's maker and is still growing with actual new people, not just more alts for vets. The whole "eve growth is just alts" thing is a crutch the unhappy people use to dismiss the fact that EVE online is actually quite healthy, because a healthy EVE disproves their entire worldview (it just BURNS them that EVE isn't dying, because if it was they could use that as leverage against ccp to get them to remake the game they way they want) lol.

Again, great post Nightcrawler.
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#164 - 2014-01-02 14:18:17 UTC
The people you play with feel special? More like targets of opportunity. Methinks this viewpoint is one made by a PK and not a mainstream player.

I am all for helping fellow players, but suggesting the PK'ers are even able to put their ganking on hold to actually help someone they have already or will soon be ganking? Pipe dream.
NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
#165 - 2014-01-02 14:45:07 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
The people you play with feel special? More like targets of opportunity. Methinks this viewpoint is one made by a PK and not a mainstream player.

I am all for helping fellow players, but suggesting the PK'ers are even able to put their ganking on hold to actually help someone they have already or will soon be ganking? Pipe dream.


Stop by NCQA sometime... You will be surprised over how many gankers, scammers, pirates, griefers and all around "naughty" people that hang around in there answering questions on a daily basis.

Granted, some of them "might" choose to... prove a point using less nice game mechanics if the player in question is being rude, abusive, shows no respect, and does their best to disregard any advice they get unless the advice is "how they want the game to work" Twisted

I think Cannibal Kane would be a prime example of a "bad boy" that provides new players with a lot of useful information and help, while still manages to maintain his "bad boy" reputation, and even use his ingame profession to help teach new players about EVE.

Phoibe Enterprises

The Eve Reader -  Audio Recordings of Eve Chronicles
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#166 - 2014-01-02 14:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Trii Seo
Yup, gets it.

What NPE needs to do is serve a controlled-environment whack to the face for a new player. They need an introduction to just how brutal this game can be and how satisfying overcoming adversity can be.

It really doesn't need restrictive ~player generated pve~ as a catalyst for anything. While changes to ratting in general need to be made since the system is bad, those changes should keep things simple. The more simple it is, the lower probability of generating another clusterfuck like FW (Pre-nerf FW comes to mind).

Plus, if we look at the state of new player experience - I'll just drop one name here, Brave Newbies Inc. Their numbers skyrocketed this year and they're a massive alliance made from, well figure, newbies. from what I've seen numbers or not they'll pick a fight with just about anything. Results vary.

People with less SP have increased in usefulness too. Frigate PvP ceased to be "all about the Rifter" and each race has a combat-worthy frig to show. You can try many of the roles to specialize into with T1 variants of ships - and that includes the precious logistics. Odyssey seems to have added a new, easily accessible income stream that spares people grinding L1's and L2's.

Even in what many claim to be "nullsec bore-fest" alliances tend to offer low-sp variants of their doctrine ships, lowering the entry bar for actually enjoying content if you're into big battles. Being a newbie out there isn't the choice between a tackling rifter and an ECM blackbird anymore.

"Player Generated PvE" would likely lead to people coming up with ways to game the system for optimum gain. It has happened with many systems in the past - for example, wormhole capital escalations were originally intended to "up the stakes" when players resort to the use of capitals. Instead they're used to spawn additional valuable rats and bump the income up.

FW tiers used to be rushed with one side pushing the top for optimum payout and then "cashing out", dumping LP and getting the goods to sell later.

If I had to say EVE's NPE needs something, anything - it's an introduction to being useful as more than DPS. A lot of people join the game still set in the general mentality of gaming - that they'll need a big ship + lots of SP to compete. Some guide to just how much you can ruin someone's day just by webbing and scramming him could be nice.

That said, most of it is already explained. By players. Most of it is already demonstrated, on players by players - so I guess it'd just be a matter of pointing the new guy to a corporation of his choosing. Like BNI or EVE Uni, or RvB, or even Goons.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#167 - 2014-01-02 15:00:17 UTC
Sucha slow day at work.....

I have to say, I've always had a dream of being in one of those 1k ship fights, controlled by a half dozen commanders and strategists, using a variety of tactics to beat the enemy back. The biggest hangup is that I won't commit all my time to this, and I can't trust anyone. Seriously, spending 5 minutes in Jita watching chat, looking over contracts, etc will ruin your faith in anyone who log's in. Liars and cheats everywhere. Sponsored, supported, encouraged, and applauded by CCP.
I never did much raiding in wow either simply because I hated being restricted to a weekly schedule, then sitting around for an hour waiting for people to log in, gear checks, travel time, blech. I would much rather be out getting resources, crafting, whatever. Just call me when it's time to launch!! So I doubt any serious combat groups would be willing to take me in. Still, it would be pretty cool.
NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
#168 - 2014-01-02 15:10:59 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Sucha slow day at work.....

I have to say, I've always had a dream of being in one of those 1k ship fights, controlled by a half dozen commanders and strategists, using a variety of tactics to beat the enemy back. The biggest hangup is that I won't commit all my time to this, and I can't trust anyone. Seriously, spending 5 minutes in Jita watching chat, looking over contracts, etc will ruin your faith in anyone who log's in. Liars and cheats everywhere. Sponsored, supported, encouraged, and applauded by CCP.
I never did much raiding in wow either simply because I hated being restricted to a weekly schedule, then sitting around for an hour waiting for people to log in, gear checks, travel time, blech. I would much rather be out getting resources, crafting, whatever. Just call me when it's time to launch!! So I doubt any serious combat groups would be willing to take me in. Still, it would be pretty cool.



There are many corporations and alliances out there that will accept you and allows you to have a real life on the side, you just have to look for them.
Trust me, a good corporation will improve your EVE experience a lot. If you are unsure what to look for, where to look, what to avoid, and what to do once you find one you can try this guide which is meant to make it easier to find a corp.

Phoibe Enterprises

The Eve Reader -  Audio Recordings of Eve Chronicles
Regnag Leppod
Doomheim
#169 - 2014-01-02 17:55:34 UTC
Re-balance system security status to be centered around rookie systems, not empires, and make everything else low and null. Rookie systems are 1.0, and forced green safety. 0.9 through 0.5 are forced yellow, and only occupy systems within 5 jumps of a rookie system, after that, it's low-sec or null. Remove Concord completely.
You'd wind up with only a handful of systems in each major region in which PvP was restricted in any manner, and everything else would be free-for-all.
To make gate camping newbie areas a lot harder, triple the number of gates that go out-bound from those systems into low/null areas.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#170 - 2014-01-03 03:31:27 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
CCP and EVE are a "One hit wonder". And that's showing.

Is this a joke? Am I being trolled?
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#171 - 2014-01-03 04:07:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Nexus Day
People always talk about the sand and ignore the structure, the "box" part of the sandbox. The sand belongs to the players, the box belongs to CCP.

The sand in the sandbox of EvE is quicksand. The key for CCP is to get people to say "oooh, it is a sandbox, I think I will play in it" and have the subscriber slowly sink into it before they realize they are trapped. What CCP needs to avoid is having people look and immediately recognize the quicksand and walk away.

So how do you disguise the quicksand? I don't think you do it by publicizing single ship losses in the thousands $$$ or thefts to the same degree. That looks like quicksand to the average PvE MMO player that you are trying to get to switch. IMO you tout the supportive elements of this game, like what they are doing with the New Pilot FAQ. I would also promote and publicize groups that foster new pilot learning and interaction, such as RvB, as the new pilots will be less susceptible to the harder elements of EvE (by roaming in a group) while being prepared for their eventual descent into the quicksand. EvE University also comes to mind, but it would be nice to have RvB-eque groups for hauling, industry, mining etc.

Edit: Shout out to Brave Newbies too.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#172 - 2014-01-03 04:26:18 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
I have to say, I've always had a dream of being in one of those 1k ship fights, controlled by a half dozen commanders and strategists, using a variety of tactics to beat the enemy back.

So you're a blobber.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
#173 - 2014-01-03 04:53:00 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

EVE is a very un-solo friendly game, thus the requirement to have alts for virtually everything not directly related to your mains skillset.


Because making friends and teaming up with people in an MMO is for weak losers.
Right.




Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#174 - 2014-01-03 04:56:09 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
The people you play with feel special? More like targets of opportunity. Methinks this viewpoint is one made by a PK and not a mainstream player.

I am all for helping fellow players, but suggesting the PK'ers are even able to put their ganking on hold to actually help someone they have already or will soon be ganking? Pipe dream.

You say PK like this is some magical wonderland cooperative game like Minecraft and not a PVP-centric MMO.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#175 - 2014-01-03 04:57:36 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
EVE is a very un-solo friendly game, thus the requirement to have alts for virtually everything not directly related to your mains skillset.

Because making friends and teaming up with people in an MMO is for weak losers.
Right.

grr, blobbers

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#176 - 2014-01-03 13:45:27 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
CCP and EVE are a "One hit wonder". And that's showing.

Is this a joke? Am I being trolled?


Amount of videogames released by CCP hf: 2
Amount of successful videogames developed by CCP hf: 1

Quite literal.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2014-01-03 13:51:23 UTC
A one hit wonder doesn't gain subscriptions consistently over a decade.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#178 - 2014-01-03 14:56:09 UTC
How about simply steering all new players towards an organization like Eve University? If you're required to spend a month in one (unless you're an alt), yes, it will drive a few people nuts, but the vast majority will be able to learn the basics faster and more thoroughly.

In the long run, it could only be a good thing.