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Replacing Caldari Kinetic Damage Bonuses

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Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#101 - 2013-12-21 06:19:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
TL;DR - Ditch Caldari kinetic-specific damage bonuses.

Caldari is continually the only race still relegated to kinetic-specific missile damage bonuses for many of its hulls. This is not the case for any other race, who typically receive generic damage bonuses that apply to any type. With few exceptions, Caldari ships don't even rank in the Top 10 picks for any specific hull size or category. So this is a simple and straightforward petition:


the day this happens i want EXP damage crystals

i used to have a 900 dps navy omen (before the nerf) but its meaningless against a stfi(or other armor tanks for that matter). which is like retardo 80% res against meh. or something like that

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#102 - 2013-12-21 09:03:26 UTC
Daenika wrote:
Meyr wrote:
Caldari get more launchers and a larger bonus in order to compensate for limiting their optimal damage type.

Do the math, and figure out how many EFFECTIVE TURRETS/LAUNCHERS a hull class has.

The Drake, with six launchers, and a 50% bonus, equals NINE effective turrets.

I'm on my iPad, so I don't have access to all of the hull bonuses, but I'm certain someone can make a quick chart.


Let's compare at the BC level (ignoring Attack BCs and drone boats):

Harbinger: 6 turrets, 50% bonus, 9 effective hardpoints, 2 damage types.
Drake: 6 launchers, 50% bonus (kinetic), 9 effective hardpoints, 1 damage type (6 effective hardpoints, all damage types).
Ferox: 7 turrets, 0% bonus, 7 effective hardpoints.
Brutix: 6 turrets, 50% bonus, 9 effective hardpoints, 2 damage types.
Cyclone: 5 launchers, 25% launcher bonus, 6.25 effective hardpoints, all damage types (technically, 2 unbonused turret hardpoints as well).
Hurricane: 6 turrets, 66.7% bonus, 10 effective hardpoints, all damage types (technically, 3 unbonused launcher hardpoints as well, but only 7 high slots).

So ya, the drake is on level, within it's own damage type, with the Harbinger and Brutix, except it's only dealing a single damage type. Using omni-damage, the drake is on a bit behind the Ferox (2 damage types) and the Cyclone (all damage types), and miles behind the Hurricane (all damage types).


What I take from those numbers is that the Drake needs a 5% bonus to non-kinetic damage, the Ferox needs another turret hardpoint, and the Cyclone needs a 10% ROF bonus per level.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#103 - 2013-12-21 11:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I think modelling all Caldari ships with missile damage bonuses after the Hookbill is the way to go. Keep the high kinetic bonuses while adding a bonus to the other damage types equal to half the kinetic bonus. That's a perfect fix imo.


Can you explain why you think the Crow needs such a large buff? And the Hawk?
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#104 - 2013-12-21 11:18:57 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I think modelling all Caldari ships with missile damage bonuses after the Hookbill is the way to go. Keep the high kinetic bonuses while adding a bonus to the other damage types equal to half the kinetic bonus. That's a perfect fix imo.


Can you explain why you think the Crow needs such a large buff?


Of course each hull would need to be assessed and tested independently, so I probably should've said most rather than all.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#105 - 2013-12-21 12:00:36 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I think modelling all Caldari ships with missile damage bonuses after the Hookbill is the way to go. Keep the high kinetic bonuses while adding a bonus to the other damage types equal to half the kinetic bonus. That's a perfect fix imo.


Can you explain why you think the Crow needs such a large buff?


Of course each hull would need to be assessed and tested independently, so I probably should've said most rather than all.


Quite. And, similarly, giving the Phoenix omni-damage would not make it useful by itself.

This line of thinking leads to the logical conclusion that the choice between omni-damage and kinetic is simply a balancing tool, to be decided for individual ships as appropriate. Personally, I quite like the variation and game heterogeneity that a mix of ships with kinetic and omni gives, but I wouldn't let it get the way of balanced ships. After all, there's no variability in practice if a ship isn't being used (lol Phoenix).

So which ships is it justified on? I think we can exclude the frigates straight away. On the medium scale, it could be the Drake, Tengu, Navy Osprey and Cerb, but IMO these will be fine after HMLs are fixed and something is done to RLMLs to make them less unfun and needlessly frustrating. The Onyx also has a kinetic bonus, but it hardly matters there.

So what does that actually leave? None of the battleships have a kinetic bonus, so only the Phoenix - which needs a whole lot more help than a simple omni-damage bonus!

Askign for the kinetic bonus to be changed to omni obscures the real problems of the Phoenix being worthless, HML being horrible and Rapids being deeply aggravating and frustrating and simply not much fun to use. Smile
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#106 - 2013-12-21 12:04:06 UTC
I don't mind kinetic bonuses, what annoys me is people claiming they have selectable damage whilst not mentioning the massive losses.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#107 - 2013-12-21 12:47:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Zvaarian the Red
Gypsio III wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I think modelling all Caldari ships with missile damage bonuses after the Hookbill is the way to go. Keep the high kinetic bonuses while adding a bonus to the other damage types equal to half the kinetic bonus. That's a perfect fix imo.


Can you explain why you think the Crow needs such a large buff?


Of course each hull would need to be assessed and tested independently, so I probably should've said most rather than all.


Quite. And, similarly, giving the Phoenix omni-damage would not make it useful by itself.

This line of thinking leads to the logical conclusion that the choice between omni-damage and kinetic is simply a balancing tool, to be decided for individual ships as appropriate. Personally, I quite like the variation and game heterogeneity that a mix of ships with kinetic and omni gives, but I wouldn't let it get the way of balanced ships. After all, there's no variability in practice if a ship isn't being used (lol Phoenix).

So which ships is it justified on? I think we can exclude the frigates straight away. On the medium scale, it could be the Drake, Tengu, Navy Osprey and Cerb, but IMO these will be fine after HMLs are fixed and something is done to RLMLs to make them less unfun and needlessly frustrating. The Onyx also has a kinetic bonus, but it hardly matters there.

So what does that actually leave? None of the battleships have a kinetic bonus, so only the Phoenix - which needs a whole lot more help than a simple omni-damage bonus!

Askign for the kinetic bonus to be changed to omni obscures the real problems of the Phoenix being worthless, HML being horrible and Rapids being deeply aggravating and frustrating and simply not much fun to use. Smile


I definitely agree that the deeper underlying issues with missiles need to be addressed first, but I do feel that tying a race so heavily to one damage type is a bad idea. And really, we are always told how great selectable damage is for missile boats, but with kinetic-bonused hulls it doesn't really feel that great whenever you face a high kinetic resist enemy. It feels like you are choosing between two gimped options that are likely going to get you killed.
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#108 - 2013-12-21 16:52:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Clansworth
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I think modelling all Caldari ships with missile damage bonuses after the Hookbill is the way to go. Keep the high kinetic bonuses while adding a bonus to the other damage types equal to half the kinetic bonus. That's a perfect fix imo.


Can you explain why you think the Crow needs such a large buff?


Of course each hull would need to be assessed and tested independently, so I probably should've said most rather than all.


Quite. And, similarly, giving the Phoenix omni-damage would not make it useful by itself.

This line of thinking leads to the logical conclusion that the choice between omni-damage and kinetic is simply a balancing tool, to be decided for individual ships as appropriate. Personally, I quite like the variation and game heterogeneity that a mix of ships with kinetic and omni gives, but I wouldn't let it get the way of balanced ships. After all, there's no variability in practice if a ship isn't being used (lol Phoenix).

So which ships is it justified on? I think we can exclude the frigates straight away. On the medium scale, it could be the Drake, Tengu, Navy Osprey and Cerb, but IMO these will be fine after HMLs are fixed and something is done to RLMLs to make them less unfun and needlessly frustrating. The Onyx also has a kinetic bonus, but it hardly matters there.

So what does that actually leave? None of the battleships have a kinetic bonus, so only the Phoenix - which needs a whole lot more help than a simple omni-damage bonus!

Askign for the kinetic bonus to be changed to omni obscures the real problems of the Phoenix being worthless, HML being horrible and Rapids being deeply aggravating and frustrating and simply not much fun to use. Smile


I definitely agree that the deeper underlying issues with missiles need to be addressed first, but I do feel that tying a race so heavily to one damage type is a bad idea. And really, we are always told how great selectable damage is for missile boats, but with kinetic-bonused hulls it doesn't really feel that great whenever you face a high kinetic resist enemy. It feels like you are choosing between two gimped options that are likely going to get you killed.


i guess the real question is, WHICH ships does the OP want changed? because honestly, the only Caldari ship I can think of that gets a lot of use and is tied to the kinetic bonus is the Drake - and to be honest, that ship OBVIOUSLY has other benefits if it is to be flown so much (insane tech-1 passive tank) that make up for this restriction. Other basic caldari missile boats (Kestrel, Caracal, Raven) are NOT tied to kinetic damage... also, since some of the balance of the last few years, Caldari's turret platforms are not near as pathetic as they once were, meaning MOST decent caldari ships are either Omni missile, or Therm/Kin Hybrid.