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Collisions and the Conservation of Momentum equations (Physics)

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Author
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-12-29 15:06:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Nag'o
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
I'm not talking about the spinning the ship does to align. I'm talking about the spin it does after being bumped.
And it's not only the spinning, a frig can push a battleship to ridiculous distances even without a propulsion module activated.


The turning speed of every Avatar model is the same in every situation. It takes the same amount of time for the model to turn whether its velocity vector's direction is changed by the pilot giving a command or by someone bumping it. The speed of the model's turn is unaffected by skills or the momentum behind the bump. Thus, rotational inertia is not simulated.

Bumping is based primarily on clipping, not on collision physics, so... what's your point? Does gameplay suffer for it? Should a Machariel be able to send a freighter spinning off at 1400m/s?

It is simulated. I don't know if the skills affect this significantly. Any virtual behaviour that is based on mathematical statistics is a simulation. I don't understand what you're trying to talk about when you say it's not being simulated. You mean It does not matter for damage or movement calculation? I know that.

If you don't see the difference from a spin from bumping to a spin from alignment is because you probably are afk when a fleet warps in for a bridge and someone sets it's ship to "approach" instead of "keep at range". Small bump from a Brutix at <100m/s = slow 720º spin of an Avatar... that is my point.
And no, gameplay doesn't suffer from this more than it suffers from poor physics simulation of 1400m/s cruisers pushing freighters beiond their speed limits, it just breaks player immersion. On a second tough gameplay from sci-fi fans, RP'rs and the like does suffer a bit from it.

EDIT: The fact that the spinning resulted from bumping is not relevant on the server side is just another reason for this behaviour to be properly simulated. Make a proper attrition physics calculation on the client side. Since the ship is stopped the size it's movement vector is 0, so it doesn't make any difference in the game what direction the ship is pointing for the player. Fix this floating leaf behaviour from capital ships and you're on the tracks of having a beautiful ship interaction model.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-12-30 18:04:42 UTC
So far I have seen a couple of arguments against "simulating" anything and saying that realism is not fun. I have also seen some talk of ship spinning when bumped.

Obviously, a simulator requires the use of controls as if you were actually sitting in and actually piloting the machine, and no one is even remotely suggesting that. A simulator requires detailed understanding of a complex external environment and the ability to react to that environment quickly in order to maintain correct operation of the machine, but no one is suggesting that either. While Eve does "simulate" a fictional universe, it is nothing remotely close to a simulator. Correcting inertia and momentum increases the realism without adding any level of simulation to the game.

On the other note, is realism fun? Absolutely! There is only so far you can go with a sci fi genre game in realism, but the basic Physics are fairly well accepted. Sci fi usually extends the basic laws into unproven theories, which is very acceptable.

Ship spinning is not really the focus of this thread on momentum calculations of collisions. Rotational momentum is a different thread; if it is considered for tracking, it is a worthy topic, for sure.

Momentum calculation corrections would NOT "have to be substantial re-working of tracking, ranges, and possibly more."

Computers handle all the science, so it wouldn't require any more effort from the average player. Even though there are substantial issues with other Eve physics like space gel, I think we should not just throw up our hands, but we should still discuss how to improve the game with better physics in various areas. Technology is allowing today so much of what was not possible before.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Kirluin
#43 - 2013-12-30 18:29:10 UTC
I actually agree with making ship bumping more in line with real physics, but not "because of math."

When ships of different mass don't collide the way common sense dictates, it's very immersion breaking. When I see it happen I get instantly pulled back from being "in" the game and realize "oh I'm in a goofy video game." Kind of like when something really stupid happens in a good movie and you're suddenly back in the theater watching a screen and not in the story anymore.

Having your autopilot route light up betweeen stars in space is awesomely immersive, along with having the stargates actually shoot you off into the right star. Pinball battleships is anti-that.

It doesn't have to be real physics (which in a lot of cases is actually counter-intuitive), it should just look a little more real.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-12-30 18:55:59 UTC
Kirluin wrote:
...
Having your autopilot route light up betweeen stars in space is awesomely immersive, along with having the stargates actually shoot you off into the right star. Pinball battleships is anti-that.

It doesn't have to be real physics (which in a lot of cases is actually counter-intuitive), it should just look a little more real.

Real physics only gets counter-intuitive when we approach relativity, but nothing here goes into that realm. Conservation of momentum is the most intuitive that you can get. If collisions are to look real and be intuitive, they must follow the real physics of Conservation of momentum. If it looks silly, it probably isn't following the most basic laws of physics. If I wanted to play a silly game, I would have probably chosen WoW. For me, its spreadsheets, tactics, and spaceships.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Alundil
Rolled Out
#45 - 2013-12-30 19:57:51 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
fudface wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
You cannot apply real world physics to a game in which we pilot submarines through jelly. Seriously.


its not jelly its just really really thick dark matter which is present in this universe.


Does it taste like black currant jam?

Black Strap Molasses

I'm right behind you

Alundil
Rolled Out
#46 - 2013-12-30 20:23:39 UTC
But for a serious post on this "searioz poast about physiks...."

I would not mind, at all, more realistic "flight" mechanics. But, if I may suggest, let's table this interesting discussion of more accurate physics with regard to bumping and mass considerations until after the pathfinding issues are addressed.

Flying into and out of stations and into and out of POSes and through asteroid belts, while beautiful, is completely immersion breaking the minute you "point and click" (or set an align point) to a destination and there is something in the way. It's absolutely ridiculous to think that we pilot marvels of engineering ingenuity (except for those Minmatar rust and tape contraptions) but that these 'amazing' ships and computer systems fail (horrendously I might add) at navigating between, in or around, collidable objects in its path.

Please, CCP, fix this first. Then you can move onto addressing momentum, collisions, mass, sans/warp, sans/MWD, etc etc etc.

I'm right behind you

Kirluin
#47 - 2013-12-30 21:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirluin
Andy Landen wrote:

Real physics only gets counter-intuitive when we approach relativity, but nothing here goes into that realm. Conservation of momentum is the most intuitive that you can get.


Trust me I understand (engineering background here), but with all due respect you've forgotten how normal people think. having a frigate bounce off a battleship at 22kms would look "weird" to most people even if correct, because perfectly elastic collisions are rare in day day life. It's why those executive toy swinging ball apparatus things sell: if that kind of momentum conservation wasn't odd lookin nobody would find them interesting. It's also why having spaceships bank when turning and move like sailing ships in water is "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer," plays well in a video game, yet is wrong.

So at the risk of being sent to hell by Halliday & Resnick, I'd approximate something massively inelastic that still works for gameplay even if it's not Fully Real (tm).
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-12-31 00:27:15 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
The Conservation of Momentum says that if you collide with an object 1,000 times your own mass, that the change in your velocity will be 1,000 times the change in the other objects velocity.

So a frigate with 1,000 kg mass and 2,000 m/s hitting head on a carrier with 1,000,000 kg mass at 100 m/s will only slow the carrier by 2 m/s if the collision brings the frigate to a complete stop. You read that right. The carrier only slows by 2 m/s.

Now there is a problem with MWD because it inherently draws on warp technology, it greatly increases the mass and velocity during a micro warp, and thus really messes up many other foundational laws of Physics (don't get me started about viscous space creating a speed limit, the subject of a separate thread). MWD appears to violate the Conservation of Momentum, but since it utilizes the warping of space, it is safe to ignore any collisions since it is traveling through warped space on a micro level.

The only topic of this thread is to change the mechanics so that this equation, foundational to all physics, is honored in Eve Online. I would gladly cover honoring the other foundational laws of physics in other threads, but not this one.

*removed discussion of moderation* - CCP Eterne

I intentionally focused it away from that aspect (damage) and toward the Conservation of Momentum which was still completely in line with the thread title. I ask the rest of you to save discussion of those other effects for their respective threads and focus only on momentum and MWD's affect on momentum and collisions.

Answer to question on previous locked thread: To answer Pipa's question on the effect of velocity on the mass of an object mass only begins to increase as the object approaches fractions of the speed of light. The speed of light (c) is 3,000,000 m/s so an object would need to near 300,000 m/s (1/10 of c) before any substantial increase in mass occurred. Pipa claims that an SFI can hit 14,000 m/s and a Rifter can hit 10 km/s and while I want to verify those figures for myself, they are not even remotely close to 300,000 m/s. Either way, the micro warp technology combined with these incredible increases to mass and velocity provide strong reasons that there should be no collisions when MWD is on.


Want a game taht work like htat? FINE.. DEsigne it, hire programmers and implement it!!!


Nothign wrogn with that. But trying to change upside down somethign that is a stablished and successful game for 10 years is as stupid as it sounds.


You will NOT get support for your idea. Want a game with real physics? THen get inverstment and make a book with combat as in "the lost fleet" book series.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Pipa Porto
#49 - 2013-12-31 00:32:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Andy Landen wrote:
I am still wondering how you get a Machariel going 4km/s. Something is very wrong about that. I bet part of the issue there is with the MWD. After turning collisions off during MWD, we would not see any issue, but it still leaves me wondering how anyone can accept that a battleship should be able to travel anywhere near 4km/s.

PS: Please tell us more about "clipping." What is this mechanic?


Clipping is when two models try to overlap. The magic of a 1hz server update is that it's pretty likely that two objects will decide they're in the same spot at the same time when the update happens. Then the server shoves them away from each other. There was a Devblog several years ago talking about some of the changes they made to how collisions work in EVE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(computer_graphics)


Why should stepping on the gas suddenly make your ship insubstantial? Why should Titans be buffed by making them harder to kill (they often fit MWDs to aid with ailigning and moving back under POS shields, now you're making it impossible to prevent from ducking back under the shields)?


Frigates can get up over 20km/s.

Overheated, Snakes, Zors, no fleet boosts, and it does 4141m/s. There are plenty of ships that can go faster (like the SFI which can hit 14,480m/s).
What's the problem with a Battleship that sacrifices most of its ability to actually do anything but be fast being fast?


[Machariel, BumpMach]
Domination Overdrive Injector
Domination Overdrive Injector
Domination Overdrive Injector
Domination Overdrive Injector
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Core C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Large Auxiliary Thrusters II
Large Auxiliary Thrusters II
Large Low Friction Nozzle Joints I



Nag'o wrote:
It is simulated. I don't know if the skills affect this significantly. Any virtual behaviour that is based on mathematical statistics is a simulation. I don't understand what you're trying to talk about when you say it's not being simulated. You mean It does not matter for damage or movement calculation? I know that.


I see, this is a language issue. When I say that angular momentum is not simulated, I mean that it is not taken to account. It doesn't exist as a principle in the EVE universe. Ships just turn at some speed.

Nag'o wrote:
If you don't see the difference from a spin from bumping to a spin from alignment is because you probably are afk when a fleet warps in for a bridge and someone sets it's ship to "approach" instead of "keep at range". Small bump from a Brutix at <100m/s = slow 720º spin of an Avatar... that is my point.


A 720 spin does not happen from just a bump. You get up to a 180 from the bump and the rest is from the Titan pilot trying to get back into the orientation and position he wants.

Nag'o wrote:
And no, gameplay doesn't suffer from this more than it suffers from poor physics simulation of 1400m/s cruisers pushing freighters beiond their speed limits, it just breaks player immersion. On a second tough gameplay from sci-fi fans, RP'rs and the like does suffer a bit from it.


You just put "physics simulation" spacecraft and "speed limits" in the same sentence. Spacecraft have maximum accelerations, not maximum velocities.
Why aren't you complaining about the fact that this game is best described as a Submarine simulation with space paint slapped on it? Because that wouldn't make good gameplay for EVE.

If you want immersion by slavish devotion to perfect simulation, there are games for that. There are absolutely fantastic games for that. EVE is not among them.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-12-31 14:34:01 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Why should stepping on the gas suddenly make your ship insubstantial? Why should Titans be buffed by making them harder to kill (they often fit MWDs to aid with ailigning and moving back under POS shields, now you're making it impossible to prevent from ducking back under the shields)?

Frigates can get up over 20km/s.

Overheated, Snakes, Zors, no fleet boosts, and it does 4141m/s. There are plenty of ships that can go faster (like the SFI which can hit 14,480m/s).
What's the problem with a Battleship that sacrifices most of its ability to actually do anything but be fast being fast?
...
Nag'o wrote:
...poor physics simulation of 1400m/s cruisers pushing freighters beiond their speed limits, it just breaks player immersion. ..


You just put "physics simulation" spacecraft and "speed limits" in the same sentence. Spacecraft have maximum accelerations, not maximum velocities.
Why aren't you complaining about the fact that this game is best described as a Submarine simulation with space paint slapped on it? Because that wouldn't make good gameplay for EVE.

If you want immersion by slavish devotion to perfect simulation, there are games for that. There are absolutely fantastic games for that. EVE is not among them.

If by "insubstantial" you mean not able to collide, I already explained that warp technology like the MWD inherently passes through objects.

If a Titan is sitting on the edge of a pos shields, then it is practically safe already. There is no reason to worry about ships that are not committed to an open battle away from pos shields. Then again, there are always these really cool modules called webbifiers.

The problem with battleships going that fast is that they are battleships and given the current game mechanics, they should not go near that fast. I personally agree with your statement on physics and speed limits, but until the cap is on acceleration and not on speed, battleships should be much much slower.

For the record, I do think that we could still see good gameplay with the limits moved from speed limits to acceleration limits. I am sure there is another thread on space gel, where such details can be sorted, but this thread is not it. Referencing comments regarding the effect of physics on Eve Online, a removal of space gel would substantially alter the game, but adjustments to collisions to work off of momentum and to turn off with MWD will only affect the game with a few changes in tactics.

We really can't be using this word "simulation" all the time, because we do not actually have to interface with the machine's controls (not even virtually). Look at Digital Combat Simulator (DCS): Blackshark to see what a real simulator is all about. That kind of attention to detail is extremely immersive, but it drives away a lot of people because you have to pay attention to everything and handle everything yourself with a large degree of technical knowledge. For now, let's just call it a spaceship game where basic physics could use quite a bit of work.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Pipa Porto
#51 - 2013-12-31 16:14:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Andy Landen wrote:
If by "insubstantial" you mean not able to collide, I already explained that warp technology like the MWD inherently passes through objects.

If a Titan is sitting on the edge of a pos shields, then it is practically safe already. There is no reason to worry about ships that are not committed to an open battle away from pos shields. Then again, there are always these really cool modules called webbifiers.


And making ships arbitrarily insubstantial is **** gameplay. Bumping is far too important a mechanic to arbitrarily remove.
And, since your argument is based on a call for realism, why should stepping on the gas all of a sudden make my ship insubstantial? Warping in EVE is always for fixed distances and in a straight line. See: Warping and MJDs.

Titans cannot be webbed. Titans poking their nose out of POS shields can and have been bumped away and killed. We should worry about ships poking their nose out of POS shields because they can have the same effect on a battle as they would if they had committed to it.

Quote:
The problem with battleships going that fast is that they are battleships and given the current game mechanics, they should not go near that fast. I personally agree with your statement on physics and speed limits, but until the cap is on acceleration and not on speed, battleships should be much much slower.


Why? The Machariel's shtick is that it is fast. Why shouldn't it be fast if you fit it to do nothing useful except be fast?

Quote:
We really can't be using this word "simulation" all the time, because we do not actually have to interface with the machine's controls (not even virtually). Look at Digital Combat Simulator (DCS): Blackshark to see what a real simulator is all about. That kind of attention to detail is extremely immersive, but it drives away a lot of people because you have to pay attention to everything and handle everything yourself with a large degree of technical knowledge. For now, let's just call it a spaceship game where basic physics could use quite a bit of work.


What gameplay benefit do you expect to come from a massive increase in the effect of bumping? EVE is not a game whose design goal includes being the perfect simulation (or even a good simulation) of some real environment, so "improving realism" is not actually a legitimate argument for making a change.

EVE's physics and gameplay are, at their core, most closely akin to a submarine simulation. But that's just how the game mechanics ended up from a goal of "make a fun sandbox game."
To put it another way, you need a better reason than "make it more realistic" to start adding rules to Risk to try to turn it into Axis and Allies.

P.S. Removing MWDs from the equation entirely, a bump Machariel running an afterburner hits 1592m/s for a momentum of 150 billion kgm/s, about the same momentum as a Titan, or 15 times the momentum of a Freighter. Without taking into account the afterburner's mass increase.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-01-01 01:06:32 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
...
And making ships arbitrarily insubstantial is **** gameplay. Bumping is far too important a mechanic to arbitrarily remove.
And, since your argument is based on a call for realism, why should stepping on the gas all of a sudden make my ship insubstantial? Warping in EVE is always for fixed distances and in a straight line. See: Warping and MJDs.

Titans cannot be webbed. Titans poking their nose out of POS shields can and have been bumped away and killed. We should worry about ships poking their nose out of POS shields because they can have the same effect on a battle as they would if they had committed to it.
...
Why? The Machariel's shtick is that it is fast. Why shouldn't it be fast if you fit it to do nothing useful except be fast?
...

"insubstantial" does not mean what you think it means. And if by arbitrary, you mean able to be countered, then yes. That is the nature of Eve.

And if by "too important" you mean "to your own preferred gameplay," then yes but I assure you that a great many ships do not care about "bumping." Collisions will still exist, hence the need for correct momentum calculations and this thread.

Technically, MJD is stepping on the gas too, and so is warping. The micro WARP drive uses warp technology too and therefore, like the other two, should not be collidable while the module is in effect and "warping" the ship. That's why.

If Titans can't be webbed, then that is another issue with supers. Never tried to web one before. This thread is not here to discuss fixing supers. Committing to fights next to a friendly pos is no different than fighting on the station undock. If you want to see more fights with full commitment, you need to create a thread about getting more stuff to fight over which is away from stations and poses. I think that is why IHUBs, TCUs, etc. were invented, but feel free to ask for more .. in another thread.

Machariel's shtick is that it is a massive battleship. It should act more like one. Does anyone want to see a Titan that does 50 km/s? No, because it is a Titan and should act like one (and be slow) regardless of how much was sacrificed to make it fast. Same goes for a freighter, regardless of the implants, drugs, boosters, etc, it should be slow. The momentum of each ship should generally stay within the range of its own ship class. A frigate should not ever have the momentum of an AB battleship. At least, not while there is space gel slowing everything down relative to the nearest celestial object in the solar system that they are in. PS: That officer fitted Machariel linked earlier would look so nice on a killmail. If you think anyone would fly something like that, please ask them to let their nearest pirates have a crack at it in lowsec. lol.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Pipa Porto
#53 - 2014-01-01 02:41:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Andy Landen wrote:
"insubstantial" does not mean what you think it means. And if by arbitrary, you mean able to be countered, then yes. That is the nature of Eve.

And if by "too important" you mean "to your own preferred gameplay," then yes but I assure you that a great many ships do not care about "bumping." Collisions will still exist, hence the need for correct momentum calculations and this thread.


Insubstantial: adj. not solid. i.e. exactly what you were suggesting turning an MWD on would do to a ship.

You can't scram a super, they're immune to ewar. So your suggestion would make all Supers immune to bumping, because they would all always fit them and always have them on.

Quote:
Technically, MJD is stepping on the gas too, and so is warping. The micro WARP drive uses warp technology too and therefore, like the other two, should not be collidable while the module is in effect and "warping" the ship. That's why.

If Titans can't be webbed, then that is another issue with supers. Never tried to web one before. This thread is not here to discuss fixing supers. Committing to fights next to a friendly pos is no different than fighting on the station undock. If you want to see more fights with full commitment, you need to create a thread about getting more stuff to fight over which is away from stations and poses. I think that is why IHUBs, TCUs, etc. were invented, but feel free to ask for more .. in another thread.


Both the MJD and warping work in a fundamentally different way than normal travel. ABs and MWDs simply add thrust and speed you up. Why should adding thrust suddenly make you insubstantial?

TCUs are set up right next to POSes. POSes are also important things to fight over themselves.

Quote:
Machariel's shtick is that it is a massive battleship. It should act more like one. Does anyone want to see a Titan that does 50 km/s? No, because it is a Titan and should act like one (and be slow) regardless of how much was sacrificed to make it fast. Same goes for a freighter, regardless of the implants, drugs, boosters, etc, it should be slow.


Find where someone from CCP has said that the Machariel should be slow. It has the highest base speed of any battleship by a decent margin. What part of that implies that it should be slow?

Quote:
The momentum of each ship should generally stay within the range of its own ship class. A frigate should not ever have the momentum of an AB battleship. At least, not while there is space gel slowing everything down relative to the nearest celestial object in the solar system that they are in. PS: That officer fitted Machariel linked earlier would look so nice on a killmail. If you think anyone would fly something like that, please ask them to let their nearest pirates have a crack at it in lowsec. lol.


A frigate can't put up the same momentum as an AB battleship. It can put up a similar momentum to a Freighter, but that's because Freighters are slow. Anyway, why should the speeds of smaller ships be massively nerfed just because bigger ships are slower?

The Mach fit I linked only costs about 1.25b hull included. Now, why should it be able to send a Freighter spinning off into the abyss at ~1400m/s? Why should it be able to send a Titan back the way it came at twice its full speed?


Oh, and I took the liberty of bolding the straw men you put up.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-01-01 05:30:59 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
...And if by "too important" you mean "to your own preferred gameplay," then yes but I assure you that a great many ships do not care about "bumping." Collisions will still exist, hence the need for correct momentum calculations and this thread.
...You can't scram a super, they're immune to ewar. So your suggestion would make all Supers immune to bumping, because they would all always fit them and always have them on...

I would allow that option, yes. It won't protect them from HIC points and neuts, though I disagree with the whole no ewar on supers mechanic.

Pipa Porto wrote:

Both the MJD and warping work in a fundamentally different way than normal travel. ABs and MWDs simply add thrust and speed you up. Why should adding thrust suddenly make you insubstantial?

TCUs are set up right next to POSes. POSes are also important things to fight over themselves.

If there fleet is too scared to come out and play, then they lose their pos. If someone comes out, they get insta-primaried by the opposing fleet. While the fleet is inside the pos, it is not helping those who are outside the pos, which makes the guys outside much stronger.

Quote:
A frigate can't put up the same momentum as an AB battleship. It can put up a similar momentum to a Freighter, but that's because Freighters are slow. Anyway, why should the speeds of smaller ships be massively nerfed just because bigger ships are slower?


I never said that "the speeds of smaller ships be massively nerfed just because bigger ships are slower". I only said that the machariel should have battleship-ish speeds being that it is a battleship mass and hull class. That being the case, it cannot push around Titans like flies.

Oh, and there were no straw men. Just viewpoints that you didn't like. Keep an open mind and you'll see that if momentum is conserved and within normal ranges for each ship type, Eve can be very immersive and enjoyable. Those who want Titan momentum should just buy a Titan instead of trying to force some much less massive ship to be Titan-like..

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2014-01-02 16:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nag'o
Pipa Porto wrote:

Nag'o wrote:
If you don't see the difference from a spin from bumping to a spin from alignment is because you probably are afk when a fleet warps in for a bridge and someone sets it's ship to "approach" instead of "keep at range". Small bump from a Brutix at <100m/s = slow 720º spin of an Avatar... that is my point.


A 720 spin does not happen from just a bump. You get up to a 180 from the bump and the rest is from the Titan pilot trying to get back into the orientation and position he wants.

A 18º spin of a Titan that was just touched by a battleship would still look bad.
Nag'o wrote:
And no, gameplay doesn't suffer from this more than it suffers from poor physics simulation of 1400m/s cruisers pushing freighters beiond their speed limits, it just breaks player immersion. On a second tough gameplay from sci-fi fans, RP'rs and the like does suffer a bit from it.
Pipa Porto wrote:

You just put "physics simulation" spacecraft and "speed limits" in the same sentence. Spacecraft have maximum accelerations, not maximum velocities.
Why aren't you complaining about the fact that this game is best described as a Submarine simulation with space paint slapped on it? Because that wouldn't make good gameplay for EVE.

If you want immersion by slavish devotion to perfect simulation, there are games for that. There are absolutely fantastic games for that. EVE is not among them.

Yes, EVE spacecrafts DO have maximum velocities. They are not able to accelerate indefinitely like RL spacecrafts. You can see that number when you put the mouse over your propulsion modules. That is not acceleration, that is speed (acceleration values are indicated on the m/s² format). Whenever a ship speed in EVE is beyond that number it's because it was pushed by something, because it cannot go that fast by it's own propulsion.

I'm complaining because I like the game. I like other aspects than the simulation and because this also matters to me I think it could be improved somehow. What I don't understand is why you care so much about my complaint. If the ship spin velocity from bumping ever gets changed this will affect nothing of your gameplay (since, as you already pointed, this is not taken into account when calculating movement or damage). I know EVE is not focused on the simulation aspect. What I'm proposing are simple changes. Small things like this spin velocity, a better collision box for asteroids maybe. Small things that improve the game immersion without compromising the gameplay. This is far from making it a perfect simulation, it's just making it a not too dummy of a simulation.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.

Pipa Porto
#56 - 2014-01-02 18:30:01 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
I would allow that option, yes. It won't protect them from HIC points and neuts, though I disagree with the whole no ewar on supers mechanic.


So now, to make things "more realistic," you're proposing that the largest ships in the game no longer collide with anything at all.

Quote:
If there fleet is too scared to come out and play, then they lose their pos. If someone comes out, they get insta-primaried by the opposing fleet. While the fleet is inside the pos, it is not helping those who are outside the pos, which makes the guys outside much stronger.


Wrong. Titans can easily nose out and DD. At the moment, this exposes them to some risk of being bumped away. Under your proposal, they're no longer exposed to any risk.


Quote:
I never said that "the speeds of smaller ships be massively nerfed just because bigger ships are slower". I only said that the machariel should have battleship-ish speeds being that it is a battleship mass and hull class. That being the case, it cannot push around Titans like flies.

Sure you did. Right here:
Andy Landen wrote:
The momentum of each ship should generally stay within the range of its own ship class.


If smaller ships can't have larger momentum values than larger, slower ships, the smaller ships must have their speed reduced. (Reducing their mass to compensate would result in pretty much all subcaps having ridiculously small align times).

Anyway, the momentum of a similarly fit Typhoon is 324 billion kgm/s to the Machariel's 392 billion kgm/s. So the Machariel isn't out of line at all for its class. Titans are just really slow.

Quote:
Oh, and there were no straw men. Just viewpoints that you didn't like. Keep an open mind and you'll see that if momentum is conserved and within normal ranges for each ship type, Eve can be very immersive and enjoyable. Those who want Titan momentum should just buy a Titan instead of trying to force some much less massive ship to be Titan-like..


A straw man argument is where you put up a weak opposing argument in order to knock it down. Like, say, claiming that I'm calling for 50km/s Titans. Or Freighters. Or claiming that I'm saying Frigates should have the momentum value of an AB Battleship.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Pipa Porto
#57 - 2014-01-02 18:40:29 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
A 18º spin of a Titan that was just touched by a battleship would still look bad.


In real physics, any force, no matter how small, acting to spin something in a vacuum will result in the object spinning forever, absent the action of another force.

Anyway, if you want an RP justification, here:
The ships computers are designed to always keep the nose of the ship pointing in the direction of travel. When a stationary ship gets bumped, the ship turns to face the new direction of travel.

There's your immersion.
Quote:
Yes, EVE spacecrafts DO have maximum velocities. They are not able to accelerate indefinitely like RL spacecrafts. You can see that number when you put the mouse over your propulsion modules. That is not acceleration, that is speed (acceleration values are indicated on the m/s² format). Whenever a ship speed in EVE is beyond that number it's because it was pushed by something, because it cannot go that fast by it's own propulsion.


Yes. In EVE, spaceships have maximum velocities. In Real life, they have maximum accelerations. Different systems, different rules.
In EVE, spaceships turn at a fixed rate regardless of the forces acting on them. In Real life, they turn based on the forces acting on them. Different systems, different rules.

You were complaining that a fast ship can push a slow ship faster than it's speed limit. Making collisions based on momentum would result in being able to push slow ships to much, much higher speeds than you can now.
When an SFI hits a freighter now, the Freighter heads off the other way, but at a fairly slow pace. If collisions were based on momentum, as proposed by you and Andy, the Freighter would head screaming off at around 1400m/s.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-01-02 20:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Pipa Porto wrote:

So now, to make things "more realistic," you're proposing that the largest ships in the game no longer collide with anything at all.

No, I am proposing that ANY ship with an active MWD be uncollidable based on the warp technology. Whether warp technology of passing through entire planets is "realistic" or not to you is your own thing, but I am interested in the most fundamental physics (like Conservation of Momentum) done right. PS: The MWD is nothing that a scram can't take care of, especially after CCP fixes supers to allow ALL scrams to work on supers; there is no reason why a super cannot be scrammed with normal scrams while having a natural +2 or +4 to warp core strength (for all caps to be consistent). Anyhow, super EW immunity should be discussed more in a separate thread.

Pipa Porto wrote:

Quote:
If there fleet is too scared to come out and play, then they lose their pos. If someone comes out, they get insta-primaried by the opposing fleet. While the fleet is inside the pos, it is not helping those who are outside the pos, which makes the guys outside much stronger.


Wrong. Titans can easily nose out and DD. At the moment, this exposes them to some risk of being bumped away. Under your proposal, they're no longer exposed to any risk.

You are highlighting another problem with supercapitals, namely the DD, which should be discussed in another thread. But if ANYONE in fleet has a scram, the MWD cuts off INSTANTLY and then instantly becomes collidable.. The risk is virtually unchanged if the issue of super EW immunity is resolved in favor of allowing normal points on them. I mean really, the super's warp drive is the same technology as the average ship. At most, give capitals a +2 or +4 warp core strength bonus, but the scram will still shut off the MWD in those cases and leave the ship collidable.

Pipa Porto wrote:

Quote:
I never said that "the speeds of smaller ships be massively nerfed just because bigger ships are slower". I only said that the machariel should have battleship-ish speeds being that it is a battleship mass and hull class. That being the case, it cannot push around Titans like flies...
The momentum of each ship should generally stay within the range of its own ship class.

I said that their momentums should stay within their ship class. I made no comparisons between the ship classes.
Let's look at the Machariel example, and show that conservation of momentum could care less whether the Titan is moving slow or not at all; the importance of relative velocity appears here. An pvp-fit shield-tanked AB Machariel goes 553 m/s with a mass of 94,680,000 kg straight at a stationary Ragnarok with a mass of 2,075,625,000 kg. During an elastic collision without any mass increase, The Machariel bounces back at 505 m/s, while the Titan bounces the other way at 48 m/s.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2014-01-03 15:13:14 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
A 18º spin of a Titan that was just touched by a battleship would still look bad.

In real physics, any force, no matter how small, acting to spin something in a vacuum will result in the object spinning forever, absent the action of another force.

EvE ships simulation is not consistent with it's own space. It's not a vacuum, there is a drag, but nonetheless the drag on smaller ships is greater than the one from ofmgthisishugebigger ships. I don't want ships spinning forever, I want the oposite of that. I want titanic ships to spin very little or don't spin at all from bumping of small ships. I know this is not realistic, but at least it is consistent. I don't want EvE to be realistic. I'm ok with space having up and down, static planets, liquid space and all the regular sci-fi staging stuff we are all used to. I really don't understand and you're not expressing the reason for you to have a problem with me wanting a more consistent representation of EvE's own universe. Although the topic of our concern is similar I'm not proposing the same thing as Andy.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2014-01-03 23:39:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Nag'o wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
A 18º spin of a Titan that was just touched by a battleship would still look bad.

In real physics, any force, no matter how small, acting to spin something in a vacuum will result in the object spinning forever, absent the action of another force.

EvE ships simulation is not consistent with it's own space. It's not a vacuum, there is a drag, but nonetheless the drag on smaller ships is greater than the one from ofmgthisishugebigger ships. I don't want ships spinning forever, I want the oposite of that. I want titanic ships to spin very little or don't spin at all from bumping of small ships. I know this is not realistic, but at least it is consistent. I don't want EvE to be realistic. I'm ok with space having up and down, static planets, liquid space and all the regular sci-fi staging stuff we are all used to. I really don't understand and you're not expressing the reason for you to have a problem with me wanting a more consistent representation of EvE's own universe. Although the topic of our concern is similar I'm not proposing the same thing as Andy.

I must agree with Nag, that the angular momentum should also be honored and that subject is quite related to the linear momentum which we have been discussing in this thread. It seems to me that an elastic collision with no friction on the shields should have no effect at all on the direction that the ship faces. The collision should not affect angular momentum at all. This would result in ships traveling sideways and backwards until the pilot turned the ship. This could lead us to implications of directional thrust relative to ship orientation so that in order to slow down, the ship would have to turn around to point the main thrusters the opposite direction, unless the space goo remains to impose speed limits. In that case, facing the ship in the other direction could be required for simply moving the other direction relative to the static movement of the solar system in which the ship flies.

I hope that it is safe to say that we can all agree that the elastic collision parameters illustrated in my previous post between a Machariel and a Ragnarok are not seen in the current Eve Onilne mechanics, and that existing mechanics would need to be greatly changed in order to reflect elastic collisions.

I am curious to see whether players prefer elastic collisions or inelastic collisions with damage (the damage is being discussed in a separate thread already). The reason that elastic collisions with have no damage while inelastic collisions must have damage is that damage is simply the conversion of energy from kinetic (motion) to physical deformation, heat, and other types of unusable (typically) energy all of which results in damage after they exceed certain thresholds.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein