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[ISHTI] Declaration of War

Author
Zelarrs Elkoth
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#101 - 2013-12-22 15:14:02 UTC
Stalking Mantis wrote:
Zelarrs Elkoth wrote:

Imperial subjects of all walks of life have been calling each other heretics for millenia. It is a duty of the faithful to recognize heresy, keep oneself clear of it, and call it out for question.

It is not the same as usurping the authority to declare someone a Heretic for all of the orthodoxy. I am surprised so many people, even good Amarrians, are confused on this subject.


This should be given much more attention than it sadly will get.

EVERYONE AND I MEAN EVERYONE should hold off on the 'your a heretic!' accusations.

Before going off onto a accusation of heresy ask yourself this:

Who has appointed you to speak on behalf of God when deciding who is and who isn't?


Full quote restored. Maybe that will help you understand just how badly you are misinterpreting what I said.

Nobody appointed me to speak on behalf of god. But that doesn't mean I stand around nodding when someone goes off spouting crazy ideas about faith that clash with my own and that of the society I live in. It's my duty to at the very least recognize that I need to remove myself from that company, not join every cult and schism that passes by. Perhaps call it for review, perhaps decry it on the spot, depending on how egregious it is.

How can one be faithful and not recognize this? What does faithful mean to you?

Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Captain, Head of Diplomacy, Recruiting Officer Contact on channel: "PIE Public" "I walk the razor's edge of embracing the future while protecting what we value of the past."

Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#102 - 2013-12-22 16:54:00 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Didn't these sorts of things used to be settled when a noble would throw a glove down on a table and we would have a trial by combat? Suddenly, after years of wondering about the barbarism of that system, suddenly I see why it was so necessary. Now, instead of two people fighting hopefully not to the death, Amarrian crewmen are dying to a mercenary force.

Why don't you both just take a battleship apiece and a form master to a spot of space and fight until one of you has taken the hull integrity of the other down to 50%? Crew losses would be minimal, it would only take one member of PIE out of the fight for the duration, nobody would have to pay any mercenaries.

It seems rather simple.


Why ever would we give this pathetic failure of a Holder who has dishonored the legacy of her family in every single way possible such respect?

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#103 - 2013-12-22 17:09:22 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
I don't know, Vitalia.

Stormcrows are doing their silent bloodwork rather well, rather than posting. It's showing a fairly one sided 125:0 war report right now.


Since you're keen to check the numbers, perhaps you could provide some context by comparing our losses to Stormcrows with the far greater value of both our victories against and losses to our primary focus: the Shakorites.

Also, how does the value of our losses compare to the expense of bankrolling this futile war against us?


I'm not sure what the price is of the job. Most mercenary outfits charge a significantly higher price. I do believe we paid Stormcrows closer to a billion for the job we hired them on some time ago.

I'm not surprised that a vast majority of your efforts are directed at Shakorites, with a significantly higher efficiency. This month alone, Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris has registered well over eight billion ISK in kills, compared to little over a quarter that in losses. At 80% efficiency, that is impressive.

Katrina Oniseki

Erin Savonarola
Doomheim
#104 - 2013-12-22 18:33:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Erin Savonarola
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:

Why ever would we give this pathetic failure of a Holder who has dishonored the legacy of her family in every single way possible such respect?

Sometimes, I ask myself if I enjoy wine too much. Yet, days like this make me think that I do not enjoy it enough. The duchess's actions are condemnable, but that does not mean that PIE should be pouring lox on the fire.
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#105 - 2013-12-22 19:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaven Lok'ri
Your tolerance for a person who has insulted every single aspect of Amarrian government and swears allegiance to a creed that the Empire has declared heretical is far too high, Lady Savonarola.

I should note that PIE has not declared Odelya a heretic. Odelya has declared herself a heretic through her spouting of the Tetrimon Heresy and her declaration that the Theology Council was treasonous. We merely pointed out that she was a proponent of a set of beliefs that the Empire had declared to be heresy.

That she would hire mercenaries rather than apologize for her many insults to the Empire just puts a nice period on the self-condemnation that we have seen from her in the last few months.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#106 - 2013-12-22 20:12:05 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
I don't know, Vitalia.

Stormcrows are doing their silent bloodwork rather well, rather than posting. It's showing a fairly one sided 125:0 war report right now.


Since you're keen to check the numbers, perhaps you could provide some context by comparing our losses to Stormcrows with the far greater value of both our victories against and losses to our primary focus: the Shakorites.

Also, how does the value of our losses compare to the expense of bankrolling this futile war against us?


I'm not sure what the price is of the job. Most mercenary outfits charge a significantly higher price. I do believe we paid Stormcrows closer to a billion for the job we hired them on some time ago.

I'm not surprised that a vast majority of your efforts are directed at Shakorites, with a significantly higher efficiency. This month alone, Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris has registered well over eight billion ISK in kills, compared to little over a quarter that in losses. At 80% efficiency, that is impressive.


On that subject (and since being anywhere near the warzone would jeopardize my position despite my curiosity), what sort of outfits in the conflicts zones have efficiency ratings that high that you're aware of? I'm just wondering so that I can show due deference to them on the subject.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Erin Savonarola
Doomheim
#107 - 2013-12-22 20:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Erin Savonarola
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Your tolerance for a person who has insulted every single aspect of Amarrian government and swears allegiance to a creed that the Empire has declared heretical is far too high, Lady Savonarola.

I tolerate her because there are larger forces at work. When the Kingdom is reunited with the Empire, then will be the time to redress any grievances with the duchess.
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#108 - 2013-12-22 20:36:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaven Lok'ri
Erin Savonarola wrote:
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Your tolerance for a person who has insulted every single aspect of Amarrian government and swears allegiance to a creed that the Empire has declared heretical is far too high, Lady Savonarola.

I tolerate her because there are larger forces at work. When the Kingdom is reunited with the Empire, then will be the time to redress any grievances with the duchess.


If it was just the Tetrimon heresy I might agree with you.

However, she has consistently been actively insulting the entirety of the Empire as well as making a mockery of the office of the Holder. Those insults must be met with resistance and not tolerance, no matter the source.

Fortunately, her actions or opinions have little to no bearing on the future reintegration of the Khanid Kingdom with the Empire.

PIE has a policy of Tolerance for loyalists to King Khanid. That tolerance does not extend to people who feel they must attack the Amarrian Empire rather than simply remaining loyal to Khanid.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#109 - 2013-12-22 21:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
I don't know, Vitalia.

Stormcrows are doing their silent bloodwork rather well, rather than posting. It's showing a fairly one sided 125:0 war report right now.


Since you're keen to check the numbers, perhaps you could provide some context by comparing our losses to Stormcrows with the far greater value of both our victories against and losses to our primary focus: the Shakorites.

Also, how does the value of our losses compare to the expense of bankrolling this futile war against us?


I'm not sure what the price is of the job. Most mercenary outfits charge a significantly higher price. I do believe we paid Stormcrows closer to a billion for the job we hired them on some time ago.

I'm not surprised that a vast majority of your efforts are directed at Shakorites, with a significantly higher efficiency. This month alone, Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris has registered well over eight billion ISK in kills, compared to little over a quarter that in losses. At 80% efficiency, that is impressive.


On that subject (and since being anywhere near the warzone would jeopardize my position despite my curiosity), what sort of outfits in the conflicts zones have efficiency ratings that high that you're aware of? I'm just wondering so that I can show due deference to them on the subject.


Consider the following outfits and their efficiency for December.

Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive - 69%
Pyre Falcon Defense Combine - 77%
Electus Matari - 74%
Villore Accords - 82%

The point is that PIE is doing well, despite the Stormcrows. This, in turn, means that both outfits are doing well. They are causing far more losses than they sustain.

Katrina Oniseki

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#110 - 2013-12-22 21:38:18 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

Consider the following outfits and their efficiency for December.

Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive - 69%
Pyre Falcon Defense Combine - 77%
Electus Matari - 74%
Villore Accords - 82%

The point is that PIE is doing well, despite the Stormcrows. This, in turn, means that both outfits are doing well. They are causing far more losses than they sustain.


It's just statistics at the end of the day, and probably doesn't mean much. I mean, you could probably do, "kills per member" and get:

Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive - 0.89
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine - 34.89
Electus Matari - 3.06
Villore Accords - 9.14

Which alludes to about the same as efficiency, which is not much at all, since it's easy to massage statistics one way or another and claim a, "Technical victory."

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Ascentior
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#111 - 2013-12-22 22:56:40 UTC
The only statistic that matters is how many souls of new Eden are saved in His name. It's a shame we have no empirical way of measuring that. Everything else is secondary.

But since we want arbitrary numbers, I suppose another measurement could be;
Number of times committing heresy, PIE Inc. 0
Number of times hiring contract killers to attack an ally of my corporation, PIE Inc. 0

Admiral of PIE Inc., Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris (See 'PIE Public' for recruitment)

Honorary Fabricator-General of the Imperial Navy

Chosen by God to serve the Empire.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#112 - 2013-12-22 22:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

Pyre Falcon Defense Combine - 77%

Pyre Falcon Defence Combine - 34.89


That is indeed an impressive number.

Well done, the lot of you.

Katrina Oniseki

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#113 - 2013-12-22 23:03:49 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

Consider the following outfits and their efficiency for December.

Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive - 69%
Pyre Falcon Defense Combine - 77%
Electus Matari - 74%
Villore Accords - 82%

The point is that PIE is doing well, despite the Stormcrows. This, in turn, means that both outfits are doing well. They are causing far more losses than they sustain.


It's just statistics at the end of the day, and probably doesn't mean much. I mean, you could probably do, "kills per member" and get:

Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive - 0.89
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine - 34.89
Electus Matari - 3.06
Villore Accords - 9.14

Which alludes to about the same as efficiency, which is not much at all, since it's easy to massage statistics one way or another and claim a, "Technical victory."


Well, one can extrapolate from that information a bit more nuanced idea of the total situation. In Pyre Falcon's case, for example, the high kill count per member, coupled with the slightly lower efficiency per destruction to cost, might mean that Pyre Falcon may suffer slightly higher proportional losses simply because its members are much more aggressive. Another explanation is that you may simply use more effective, but more expensive, equipment.

I'm sure someone keeps track of all the myriad statistics somewhere. It was just interesting to think about.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#114 - 2013-12-22 23:34:28 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:

Well, one can extrapolate from that information a bit more nuanced idea of the total situation. In Pyre Falcon's case, for example, the high kill count per member, coupled with the slightly lower efficiency per destruction to cost, might mean that Pyre Falcon may suffer slightly higher proportional losses simply because its members are much more aggressive. Another explanation is that you may simply use more effective, but more expensive, equipment.

I'm sure someone keeps track of all the myriad statistics somewhere. It was just interesting to think about.


A number of things contribute to Ishuk-Raata's poor numerical statistics, despite our campaign successes.

We tend to use more expensive fleet doctrines, and those that are destroyed cause significant efficiency loss. The use and occasional loss of 'ratting' vessels within our space also contributes to poor efficiency. I'd be remiss if I didn't admit we have our fair share of costly victories, and outright defeats. Committing to a fight we don't expect to win is avoided where possible, but the different concepts of nullsec warfare make that less avoidable than elsewhere sometimes.

Our member count seems bloated when compared to the kill counts, but this is partly due to Ishuk-Raata not being a pure military organization. We maintain sprawling infrastructure, and must hire the pilots to handle logistics and industry. With some exceptions, our industrial arm is counted among the total employee count, as are any other non-combat personnel. This leads to a massive number of capsuleers, a near majority of which do not fly combat missions.

Katrina Oniseki

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#115 - 2013-12-23 00:06:53 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:

Well, one can extrapolate from that information a bit more nuanced idea of the total situation. In Pyre Falcon's case, for example, the high kill count per member, coupled with the slightly lower efficiency per destruction to cost, might mean that Pyre Falcon may suffer slightly higher proportional losses simply because its members are much more aggressive. Another explanation is that you may simply use more effective, but more expensive, equipment.

I'm sure someone keeps track of all the myriad statistics somewhere. It was just interesting to think about.


I think 80% efficiency is about the average for most capsuleer combat organizations that are both competent and aggressive. The fact that we have accomplished the kill rates that we have, even given our small size, against an FDU that I would say has far more combat prowess among its employed private military units in comparison to the Protectorate is an accomplishment in itself.

There is an irony in the CEWPA conflict to me, it is the Federal capsuleers that appear to have mastered the doctrines of small unit fleet actions favouring speed, mobility, and individual skill and ability in frigates; while it continues to be Caldari capsuleers who fail to remember the lessons of our ancestors during the secession.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#116 - 2013-12-23 03:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Silas Vitalia
Ascentior wrote:

Number of times committing heresy, PIE Inc. 0


Plenty of your membership have committed all sorts of heresies over these many years.

None officially sanctioned by PIE of course.


I keep a nice little collection of visual logs and correspondence with all sorts of current and former PIE membership.


Sometimes I even feel like one of your clergy; some of your best have come to me for a sort of confessional from time to time.


Off topic but the Pratorean House is not always made of solid gold; there are bits of less godly materials in a few of the structural elements. When I see comments like Ascentior's I feel it worth reminding the rest of you.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#117 - 2013-12-23 10:05:59 UTC
Some remember perfectly well.

Also, if you have logs to share, lady Vitalia, may I ask to read them ?

Constantin Baracca wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

Consider the following outfits and their efficiency for December.

Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive - 69%
Pyre Falcon Defense Combine - 77%
Electus Matari - 74%
Villore Accords - 82%

The point is that PIE is doing well, despite the Stormcrows. This, in turn, means that both outfits are doing well. They are causing far more losses than they sustain.


It's just statistics at the end of the day, and probably doesn't mean much. I mean, you could probably do, "kills per member" and get:

Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive - 0.89
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine - 34.89
Electus Matari - 3.06
Villore Accords - 9.14

Which alludes to about the same as efficiency, which is not much at all, since it's easy to massage statistics one way or another and claim a, "Technical victory."


Well, one can extrapolate from that information a bit more nuanced idea of the total situation. In Pyre Falcon's case, for example, the high kill count per member, coupled with the slightly lower efficiency per destruction to cost, might mean that Pyre Falcon may suffer slightly higher proportional losses simply because its members are much more aggressive. Another explanation is that you may simply use more effective, but more expensive, equipment.

I'm sure someone keeps track of all the myriad statistics somewhere. It was just interesting to think about.


More generally, the smallest the fleets sizes, the lower the efficiency tends to be. Especially for pilots flying alone or in very low numbers like 2 or 3.

It is always expected.
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#118 - 2013-12-23 12:32:12 UTC
If you want to talk statistics, the only meaningful statistic regarding this pointless little war is the comparison between PIE's material losses to the Shakorites and its material losses to these Mercenaries. While I would rather talk about our successes and kills, the losses are what matter in terms of long term military effectiveness.

PIE runs through roughly 2-8 billion isk a month in combat losses. We are set up to sustain significantly higher losses if needed. We tend to kill a good deal more than that, but efficiency isn't actually as relevant as sustainability.

For an outside group to hurt us in a relevant way they would need to be able to force us to suspend operations. This would mean doing enough damage that we could not continue to sustain our standard operating losses.

My reports on the Stormcrows say that they are quite competent hunters and have some extremely competent pilots, I have not yet tested this first hand, but I trust those reports. Still, they are unlikely to be able to affect the Praetoria in a meaningful way.

I must congratulate them on finding an excellent paymaster, though. This whole affair works out very well for the Stormcrows. The only person who loses in a major way in this whole arrangement is Odelya who is demonstrating that she lacks strategic sense as well as moral fiber.

I would warn the Stormcrows that they should be cautious about letting her extend their contract too long. Steady pay from a source that is incompetent at military strategy tends to lead to a decline in mercenary quality over the long term. We saw that in our engagements with Revan's mercenaries. One group called Omnicient Order was incredibly effective when they fought us the first time, but after three years of steady pay from a heretic with no strategic sense at all they collapsed into total ineptitude. But I am sure that the crows are fully aware of that danger.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#119 - 2013-12-23 14:53:19 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Some remember perfectly well.

Also, if you have logs to share, lady Vitalia, may I ask to read them .



Unfortunately some things are just too good to share before their proper time.


Regarding efficiency:

The point about the mercenaries needing to effect your overall disposition in your theater might be a valid one, I will grant that.

Others might not have such grand vision however, when they see a one-sided 'war report' full of kills and few losses.


The IGS has so few cases of IGS regulars actually shooting at each other these years that this has perhaps drawn more attention than warranted.

I'm certainly guilty of perhaps hoping under all that smoke was a smoldering fire, and not a tiny firecracker all but spent.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Anslo
Scope Works
#120 - 2013-12-23 15:06:13 UTC
Be careful what you wish for.

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