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The future of in-space structures
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Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-12-17 02:52:57 UTC
So with the recent addition of the personal anchored structures, it brings up the age old question of POS improvements.

1st: A lot has changed in the backend of eve in the last 10 years. Some key things that have come in that will ahve an impact on this discussion:
- Tech 3 ships - the ability to combine multiple models into a singular object in the client for rendering of varied objects based on kit.
- TiDi - allows for added server load with limited impact on node stability.
- Personal structures - setting a precident for smaller anchorable objects owned not only by a corporation, and not tied to a moon.

2nd: The POS system is old - really old - and it doesn't really have the proper 'feel' of a home. working out of a POS is more akin to sitting around a campfire than in a space station.

3rd: Resource usage at a POS is currently very fixed, based only on the size of the tower, and not on what stuctures/activities are actually in use.

4th: There is still a huge gap between a small tower owned by a corp, and a Mobile Depot.

5th: very improved scanning systems make the need to tie structures to a moon unnecessary.

With these ideas in mind, I'd like to propose MY future for anchorable structures in space.
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-12-17 02:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Clansworth
The basic structure layout:

Most larger space complexes would consist of a skeleton (providing the basic structure, utilities, and anchoring capability of the station). Skeletons would vary in size and capability. This is akin to the current control towers.

Skeletons contain a varied number of 'Module Slots', 'External Hardpoints', and 'enhancement units'. The skeleton contains a capacitor, with a small power generator (recharge rate). Modules use a varied amount of cap each cycle (cycles could work at about the 6 minute interval for most things, making 10 cycles an hour).

Modules would represent the main functions of the station. Corp Hangers, SMA's, Factories, Labs, etc are all modules. There also would be engineering modules such as power plants (multiple sizes), station batteries (increasing cap size/efficiency, as well as allowing pre-charging cap's with booster charges). The power plants would be the modules that use Fuel Blocks. The power plants would be racial in variety. They essentially will cycle every x seconds, and if the cap is below a given level, it will consume fuel from its' stores and recharge the cap by a set amount. in this way, fuel usage would actually scal with structure usage, not just based on tower size.

Some structures will take up multiple numbers of modules locations. a large power plant, for instance, could take 2 module spots. A large factory as well.

External hardpoints consist of anything with an external effect from the structure. A force-field emitter would be one of these things (making the 'bubble' optional). other hardpoint residing items would be weapons (turrets/missiles), energy transfer beams (for powering remote structures, etc. Another external hardpoint item could be a solar collector. This could generate power varying by solar intensity and distance from the star. This could provide the ability to anchor a small structure, and provide limited capabilities without using fuel.

Enhancement slots could actually utilize normal shipboard modules. Shield/armor modules, cap modules, targeting modules, etc could all be fittable into the structure's systems.

Example of how modules and hardpoints work: Starbase - medium skeleton.png
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-12-17 02:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Clansworth
Some starbase features make sense to NOT be a part of the primary structure. Things like the jump bridge shouldn't be a part of the structure. These would remain a separately anchorable structures, however, they still need to be powered by the station. This is done via external hardpoint mounted energy transfer beams. These are essentially energy transfer modules that will activate when any nearby structures are low capacitor, draining the station's cap and discharging it to the cap of the remote structure.

This energy transfer mechanism could also lend some scalability to the overall installation. You could, in theory, anchor another small platform nearby the main skeleton, with nothing onboard but a large power plant, and energy transfer beams. This would, in essence, be the remote power generators seen in many mission complexes. Overall, this provides for a lot more scalability to the system than the current rigid structure.
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-12-17 02:54:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Clansworth
Industry could gain some higher granularity from this system as well. Instead of multiple anchorable structures with fixed slot layouts, 'Factory' modules are installed on the station and have a given number of slots. The factory module itself has no power draw, but depending on what slots are installed, it will draw varied power. Inactive slots draw 1/10th of an active slot. in this way, a factory sitting idle uses less fuel than one pumping out gear.

Different sized factories provide different amount of space (4 to 19 slots), and require a different number of station module slots (1, 2, or 4). Different assembly/lab lines require a different amount of space.

This also opens up the idea that these assembly line slots could actually be mid-slot style modules, that could be fit to industrial ships for nomadic construction of small items (ammo, drones, etc).
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-12-17 03:08:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Clansworth
Beyond station sized skeletons, there could also be 'mobile platforms' that would replace the current mobile depot, mobile tractor unit, etc. These could essentially be a very small skeleton, with a small built-in power supply, and the ability to house only 1 or 2 modules, with 1 or two external hardpoints. Does this really provide much more than the current mobile structures? no, but it would bring everything into the same 'system'.
Lamar Muvila
Muvila War Industries
#6 - 2013-12-17 04:08:41 UTC
yeah, I had a similar idea. :)

I decided I don't like a constantly evolving game anymore..... It requires too much reading!
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-12-17 07:40:07 UTC
sounds like what your suggesting (sorry, i only skimmed, too tired to make it through all of it), is a sort of "build a POS" using modules.

CCP wanted to do this, it was called a "modular POS", they have since decided the coding and time sink for it was too tough, and dropped it like they dropped WiS.

the new "POS system" is basically being built from the ground up and will utilize structures similar to the player-owned hub-things released a while back, moving away from the "POS" concept entirely if im understanding them right.


Basically, yeah, we all knew your idea, all wanted it, but CCP decided it was "too hard". kinda like coming up with a way to have a fair nullsec that DIDNT involve grinding out billions of EHP in structures to take a system, and taking every system within your alliance's reach because no one smaller ever stands a chance of taking it from you no matter how far out it is. just one fo those things that gets added to the long list of fanfest-proposed "cool ideas".

we just dotn ahev the same kind of "innovative" and "determined" CCP we used to, its mostly just a development race to keep the game alive at this point with anything significant being "its coming, but its still a couple years out, but dont worry its coming"
LiBroga
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-12-17 14:11:31 UTC
Tl,Dr

Before Fuel blocks, POS's used to be variable in what they consumed based upon the PG and CPU being utilised.
They changed that to simplify the process.
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-12-17 15:39:46 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
sounds like what your suggesting (sorry, i only skimmed, too tired to make it through all of it), is a sort of "build a POS" using modules.

CCP wanted to do this, it was called a "modular POS", they have since decided the coding and time sink for it was too tough, and dropped it like they dropped WiS.

the new "POS system" is basically being built from the ground up and will utilize structures similar to the player-owned hub-things released a while back, moving away from the "POS" concept entirely if im understanding them right.


Basically, yeah, we all knew your idea, all wanted it, but CCP decided it was "too hard". kinda like coming up with a way to have a fair nullsec that DIDNT involve grinding out billions of EHP in structures to take a system, and taking every system within your alliance's reach because no one smaller ever stands a chance of taking it from you no matter how far out it is. just one fo those things that gets added to the long list of fanfest-proposed "cool ideas".

we just dotn ahev the same kind of "innovative" and "determined" CCP we used to, its mostly just a development race to keep the game alive at this point with anything significant being "its coming, but its still a couple years out, but dont worry its coming"


I'm very familiar with the old modular POS epic threadnaught(s). The difference is, since that time, they have already DONE a lot of the coding required to pull something like that off. Database wise, my new proposed POS's would be represented more like ships, with fitting slots filled by various modules (analogous to tech-3 subsystems). Some other (relatively minor) coding that would be required would be a way to track all these items. For starters, once anchored, they need to be found again - something that there is already a shortcoming of. For this, best option would be to add a static personal or corporate bookmark that cannot be removed until the structure itself is unanchored. (this, again, is something that has already been drastically improved upon since the modPOS, with the addition of corporate bookmarks). There also needs to be a way for monitoring the status of a cluster-side spread of assets - this has been done to some extent with the PI interface. The point of bringing this up now was mentioned in my first post, and that is that all the pieces are finally already built, so that it now actually IS an appropriate time to start working on it (I say roll it out next Winter!)
Viki Katana
Kusari Navy
Kusari State
#10 - 2013-12-23 01:02:34 UTC
This is a cool idea. POS are very old school. I would like to see the system gutted and refurbished. Build a POS like a t3 ship. you get subsystems, high, mid, and low slots. Rig slots could be swapped to hardener slots.

Offensive items like guns and neuts go in high slots.

Defensive items like hardeners go in 'rig' slots <- might have to make these mid slots. there is no more room on the fitting wheel for more than 3 rig slots.

E-war like scrams and jammers could go in mid slots

Engineering stuff like cap power relays and batteries could go in low slots

Harvesting items could be in a combination of slots. harvesters high or mid slot. storage facilities go in low slots

Manufacturing and research could go into subsystem slots

^just a rough sketch but you get the idea

i like the cap and scaling fuel consumption idea.

i think that having a cap pool for starbase is a bad idea. otherwise you could have the posibility of neuting a tower dry.
(or its a good idea, and there could be a new mobile unit that neuts towers, like the siphon unit steals resources, and shuts them down)

a tower could come with a fixed cap per hour rate. each item you install uses pwg, cpu, and 'cap per hour'. Each CPR supercharges the reactor(power genny) so that the tower gains a fixed cap/h boost at the cost of extra fuel blocks.

tower +200 cap/h at 5 fuel blocks an hour
each cpr + 50 cap/h +1 FB/h

then every module consumes a fixed cap/h. when you run out of that you wont be able to online anymore items without adding more CPRs.

implementing this idea could be tricky. they could seed the market with the new starbase items and give everybody two years or so to pull the old ones down and put up the new ones. then refund the isk of the old pos dodads.

And (last of the ramble, i promise) while they are at it change the name of the POS from starbase to outpost. Player stations are starbases(or moon-base if you want) POS are the outposts you can quickly set up and remove(relatively speaking)
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-12-23 01:24:42 UTC
Viki Katana wrote:
This is a cool idea. POS are very old school. I would like to see the system gutted and refurbished. Build a POS like a t3 ship. you get subsystems, high, mid, and low slots. Rig slots could be swapped to hardener slots.

Offensive items like guns and neuts go in high slots.

Defensive items like hardeners go in 'rig' slots <- might have to make these mid slots. there is no more room on the fitting wheel for more than 3 rig slots.

E-war like scrams and jammers could go in mid slots

Engineering stuff like cap power relays and batteries could go in low slots

Harvesting items could be in a combination of slots. harvesters high or mid slot. storage facilities go in low slots

Manufacturing and research could go into subsystem slots

^just a rough sketch but you get the idea

i like the cap and scaling fuel consumption idea.

i think that having a cap pool for starbase is a bad idea. otherwise you could have the posibility of neuting a tower dry.
(or its a good idea, and there could be a new mobile unit that neuts towers, like the siphon unit steals resources, and shuts them down)

a tower could come with a fixed cap per hour rate. each item you install uses pwg, cpu, and 'cap per hour'. Each CPR supercharges the reactor(power genny) so that the tower gains a fixed cap/h boost at the cost of extra fuel blocks.

tower +200 cap/h at 5 fuel blocks an hour
each cpr + 50 cap/h +1 FB/h

then every module consumes a fixed cap/h. when you run out of that you wont be able to online anymore items without adding more CPRs.

implementing this idea could be tricky. they could seed the market with the new starbase items and give everybody two years or so to pull the old ones down and put up the new ones. then refund the isk of the old pos dodads.

And (last of the ramble, i promise) while they are at it change the name of the POS from starbase to outpost. Player stations are starbases(or moon-base if you want) POS are the outposts you can quickly set up and remove(relatively speaking)


A lot of these concerns are unnecessary. There's no real reason to drastically change the way the POS works, just how the structures are assembled/placed.

- No reason to keep it tied to the current ship fitting wheel. A lot of the stats on that screen are irrelevant for the starbase.
- As for neuting a starbase out, I feel that is a fully valid tactic - but it would require some smart power management to make sense. Individual components of the tower (modules and hardpoint fitted items) would be tagged as critical or non-critical. When cap is below a threshold, non-critical items go offline. Offline items essentially pause thier operaton. production/researh jobs pause (mechanics are already in place for this as exhibited by the rorqual's lines pausing when coming out of deployment). Thus, a neuted tower could likely be impaired, but is unlikely to take defenses offline (unless you're talking about a LOT of neut capability).
- As for implementation, if done keeping in line with the current systems, and still having some items left as remote modules (cyno's, jump bridges, moon harvesters, etc), then a 1-for-1 swap could be implemented. a med tower and associated modules could be replaced with a med spine and the matching modules. If items exist at that tower that are now remote modules, the tower is fit with a energy emitter, otherwise it is not (to avoid spawning too many of the new items unmanufactured). Any items that for whatever reason would not fit on the new tower are offlined and left anchored as is. Perhaps they should be replaced with a secure container containing the new itemtype.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-12-23 02:32:12 UTC
Clansworth wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
sounds like what your suggesting (sorry, i only skimmed, too tired to make it through all of it), is a sort of "build a POS" using modules.

CCP wanted to do this, it was called a "modular POS", they have since decided the coding and time sink for it was too tough, and dropped it like they dropped WiS.

the new "POS system" is basically being built from the ground up and will utilize structures similar to the player-owned hub-things released a while back, moving away from the "POS" concept entirely if im understanding them right.


Basically, yeah, we all knew your idea, all wanted it, but CCP decided it was "too hard". kinda like coming up with a way to have a fair nullsec that DIDNT involve grinding out billions of EHP in structures to take a system, and taking every system within your alliance's reach because no one smaller ever stands a chance of taking it from you no matter how far out it is. just one fo those things that gets added to the long list of fanfest-proposed "cool ideas".

we just dotn ahev the same kind of "innovative" and "determined" CCP we used to, its mostly just a development race to keep the game alive at this point with anything significant being "its coming, but its still a couple years out, but dont worry its coming"


I'm very familiar with the old modular POS epic threadnaught(s). The difference is, since that time, they have already DONE a lot of the coding required to pull something like that off. Database wise, my new proposed POS's would be represented more like ships, with fitting slots filled by various modules (analogous to tech-3 subsystems). Some other (relatively minor) coding that would be required would be a way to track all these items. For starters, once anchored, they need to be found again - something that there is already a shortcoming of. For this, best option would be to add a static personal or corporate bookmark that cannot be removed until the structure itself is unanchored. (this, again, is something that has already been drastically improved upon since the modPOS, with the addition of corporate bookmarks). There also needs to be a way for monitoring the status of a cluster-side spread of assets - this has been done to some extent with the PI interface. The point of bringing this up now was mentioned in my first post, and that is that all the pieces are finally already built, so that it now actually IS an appropriate time to start working on it (I say roll it out next Winter!)

they KNOW theyve doen most fo the coding towarsds modular POS's, but the devs have come rigth out and stated they NO LONGER WANT TO, because the remaining code they would have to alter and rewrite is stuff they dont want to bother touching.
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-12-23 02:41:10 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Clansworth wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
sounds like what your suggesting (sorry, i only skimmed, too tired to make it through all of it), is a sort of "build a POS" using modules.

CCP wanted to do this, it was called a "modular POS", they have since decided the coding and time sink for it was too tough, and dropped it like they dropped WiS.

the new "POS system" is basically being built from the ground up and will utilize structures similar to the player-owned hub-things released a while back, moving away from the "POS" concept entirely if im understanding them right.


Basically, yeah, we all knew your idea, all wanted it, but CCP decided it was "too hard". kinda like coming up with a way to have a fair nullsec that DIDNT involve grinding out billions of EHP in structures to take a system, and taking every system within your alliance's reach because no one smaller ever stands a chance of taking it from you no matter how far out it is. just one fo those things that gets added to the long list of fanfest-proposed "cool ideas".

we just dotn ahev the same kind of "innovative" and "determined" CCP we used to, its mostly just a development race to keep the game alive at this point with anything significant being "its coming, but its still a couple years out, but dont worry its coming"


I'm very familiar with the old modular POS epic threadnaught(s). The difference is, since that time, they have already DONE a lot of the coding required to pull something like that off. Database wise, my new proposed POS's would be represented more like ships, with fitting slots filled by various modules (analogous to tech-3 subsystems). Some other (relatively minor) coding that would be required would be a way to track all these items. For starters, once anchored, they need to be found again - something that there is already a shortcoming of. For this, best option would be to add a static personal or corporate bookmark that cannot be removed until the structure itself is unanchored. (this, again, is something that has already been drastically improved upon since the modPOS, with the addition of corporate bookmarks). There also needs to be a way for monitoring the status of a cluster-side spread of assets - this has been done to some extent with the PI interface. The point of bringing this up now was mentioned in my first post, and that is that all the pieces are finally already built, so that it now actually IS an appropriate time to start working on it (I say roll it out next Winter!)

they KNOW theyve doen most fo the coding towarsds modular POS's, but the devs have come rigth out and stated they NO LONGER WANT TO, because the remaining code they would have to alter and rewrite is stuff they dont want to bother touching.

I haven't seen a comment from the devs on this topic in a couple years.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#14 - 2013-12-23 03:11:09 UTC
Interesting idea, and it would definitely stand on it's own merits, if this were a pre-release game.

As it stands, however, you have to consider how much of a sweeping change this would have on the current game. POSes are central to much of the flow of life in EVE, particularly in nullsec (and especially in WH), but also in high and low sec. How do we convert current POSes over so they are balanced and fair in the new system? We need to make sure they are converted in such a way that they retain their current functionality (so you don't, for example, orphan a WH corp living out of a POS).

We need to ensure that the value of the POS after the conversion is at least somewhere near the current value of the POS. We need to make sure current POS build strategies (like a dickball - pure EWAR, designed to deter attack through annoyance, or a deathstar - as many guns and offensive modules as the POS can handle, many of which are kept only anchored until someone attacks) are not ruined. Corporations have invested heavily in certain architecture, so invalidating that would be bad.

We need to insure that such a change won't drastically affect current logistics. A large POS currently consumes 200 m3 of fuel per hour, or 4800 per day. A WH corp running two large towers already needs to bring in roughly 8-10 industrials worth of fuel per month (288k m3). If you increase that substantially for your average large WH POS, you're going to make living in WH that much more trying logistically.

You also don't really want all those nullsec POS managers to commit seppuku from the administrative overhead of having to rebuild their hundreds of POSes, so the changes would have to work as-is after the conversion, with little immediate direct administration needed, if any.
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-12-23 03:38:03 UTC
Daenika wrote:
Interesting idea, and it would definitely stand on it's own merits, if this were a pre-release game.

As it stands, however, you have to consider how much of a sweeping change this would have on the current game. POSes are central to much of the flow of life in EVE, particularly in nullsec (and especially in WH), but also in high and low sec. How do we convert current POSes over so they are balanced and fair in the new system? We need to make sure they are converted in such a way that they retain their current functionality (so you don't, for example, orphan a WH corp living out of a POS).

We need to ensure that the value of the POS after the conversion is at least somewhere near the current value of the POS. We need to make sure current POS build strategies (like a dickball - pure EWAR, designed to deter attack through annoyance, or a deathstar - as many guns and offensive modules as the POS can handle, many of which are kept only anchored until someone attacks) are not ruined. Corporations have invested heavily in certain architecture, so invalidating that would be bad.

We need to insure that such a change won't drastically affect current logistics. A large POS currently consumes 200 m3 of fuel per hour, or 4800 per day. A WH corp running two large towers already needs to bring in roughly 8-10 industrials worth of fuel per month (288k m3). If you increase that substantially for your average large WH POS, you're going to make living in WH that much more trying logistically.

You also don't really want all those nullsec POS managers to commit seppuku from the administrative overhead of having to rebuild their hundreds of POSes, so the changes would have to work as-is after the conversion, with little immediate direct administration needed, if any.


The smoothest approach would be to introduce the new structures, and schedule a sunset for the old. As the new structures would not be tied to a moon, it would be relatively easy for corps to erect new structures, and transition to them prior to the sunset of the old style items. I in no way implied the direct conversion of the assets would be the proper way, it was just in response to a criticism on the idea itself.

regarding the 'dickball' method of defense, that could still be fully realized. I was planning a 'defense platform', which in essence is a sentry tower able to fit just a couple external modules (guns or ewar). Conversely, I was also envisioning an industrial platform, that did nothing but house a couple modules. This is how you manipulate a starbase beyond the fixed capability mix of the basic skeletons. These structures are not as efficient, as they need to be powered via the through-space energy transfers, which are lossy (only transfer 80% to the remote structure's cap of what they draw from the skeleton's cap)

As for the logistics, I see this as, if anything, a reduction in fuel loads. The numbers I was working up in the backend (not posted here) were planning a new starbase with the same capabilities as an existing one would be using a comparable amount of fuel to power. Small starbases with minimal active items (simple storage and defense type componenets) may actually be able to operate on the passive tower regen alone, or by using solar arrays, meaning they could actually operate without fuel. This, of course, would be very limited capability wise, but could actually be very useful for small personal level structures.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#16 - 2013-12-23 04:25:56 UTC
Clansworth wrote:
The smoothest approach would be to introduce the new structures, and schedule a sunset for the old. As the new structures would not be tied to a moon, it would be relatively easy for corps to erect new structures, and transition to them prior to the sunset of the old style items. I in no way implied the direct conversion of the assets would be the proper way, it was just in response to a criticism on the idea itself.

regarding the 'dickball' method of defense, that could still be fully realized. I was planning a 'defense platform', which in essence is a sentry tower able to fit just a couple external modules (guns or ewar). Conversely, I was also envisioning an industrial platform, that did nothing but house a couple modules. This is how you manipulate a starbase beyond the fixed capability mix of the basic skeletons. These structures are not as efficient, as they need to be powered via the through-space energy transfers, which are lossy (only transfer 80% to the remote structure's cap of what they draw from the skeleton's cap)

As for the logistics, I see this as, if anything, a reduction in fuel loads. The numbers I was working up in the backend (not posted here) were planning a new starbase with the same capabilities as an existing one would be using a comparable amount of fuel to power. Small starbases with minimal active items (simple storage and defense type componenets) may actually be able to operate on the passive tower regen alone, or by using solar arrays, meaning they could actually operate without fuel. This, of course, would be very limited capability wise, but could actually be very useful for small personal level structures.


Depends on the sunset period. Wormhole logistics, particularly POS-level logistics, operate on a several month time-table (I know, I am the logistics division for my wormhole corp). For most POS stuff, you either have to find a fairly safe high-sec connection and have a number of people online to utilize it, or get one of those rare direct HS connections (rare unless you're living in a C1-C3, that is). Still, I think it's ultimately going to be too much of a change, too much logistical difficulty, for the benefit (and that's not accounting for the development time).
Viki Katana
Kusari Navy
Kusari State
#17 - 2013-12-23 05:30:44 UTC
Clansworth wrote:
A lot of these concerns are unnecessary. There's no real reason to drastically change the way the POS works, just how the structures are assembled/placed.

- No reason to keep it tied to the current ship fitting wheel. A lot of the stats on that screen are irrelevant for the starbase.
- As for neuting a starbase out, I feel that is a fully valid tactic - but it would require some smart power management to make sense. Individual components of the tower (modules and hardpoint fitted items) would be tagged as critical or non-critical. When cap is below a threshold, non-critical items go offline. Offline items essentially pause thier operaton. production/researh jobs pause (mechanics are already in place for this as exhibited by the rorqual's lines pausing when coming out of deployment). Thus, a neuted tower could likely be impaired, but is unlikely to take defenses offline (unless you're talking about a LOT of neut capability).
- As for implementation, if done keeping in line with the current systems, and still having some items left as remote modules (cyno's, jump bridges, moon harvesters, etc), then a 1-for-1 swap could be implemented. a med tower and associated modules could be replaced with a med spine and the matching modules. If items exist at that tower that are now remote modules, the tower is fit with a energy emitter, otherwise it is not (to avoid spawning too many of the new items unmanufactured). Any items that for whatever reason would not fit on the new tower are offlined and left anchored as is. Perhaps they should be replaced with a secure container containing the new itemtype.


Out with the old in with the new. There is no reason not too. All the stats listed on the ship wheel are used in a POS, except for drone bay and any sort of movement. Starbases do dmg with anchored guns. They have HP and resists. Your proposing giving them cap. I don't imagine that it would be much more difficult to cannibalize parts from eve code that are already better than the old POS code and use them to make something new. They could use the area used for targeting and velocity for listing the remaining fuel and strontium. Managing the tower would still require a dialog similar to the one that already exists.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2013-12-23 05:32:09 UTC
Clansworth wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Clansworth wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
sounds like what your suggesting (sorry, i only skimmed, too tired to make it through all of it), is a sort of "build a POS" using modules.

CCP wanted to do this, it was called a "modular POS", they have since decided the coding and time sink for it was too tough, and dropped it like they dropped WiS.

the new "POS system" is basically being built from the ground up and will utilize structures similar to the player-owned hub-things released a while back, moving away from the "POS" concept entirely if im understanding them right.


Basically, yeah, we all knew your idea, all wanted it, but CCP decided it was "too hard". kinda like coming up with a way to have a fair nullsec that DIDNT involve grinding out billions of EHP in structures to take a system, and taking every system within your alliance's reach because no one smaller ever stands a chance of taking it from you no matter how far out it is. just one fo those things that gets added to the long list of fanfest-proposed "cool ideas".

we just dotn ahev the same kind of "innovative" and "determined" CCP we used to, its mostly just a development race to keep the game alive at this point with anything significant being "its coming, but its still a couple years out, but dont worry its coming"


I'm very familiar with the old modular POS epic threadnaught(s). The difference is, since that time, they have already DONE a lot of the coding required to pull something like that off. Database wise, my new proposed POS's would be represented more like ships, with fitting slots filled by various modules (analogous to tech-3 subsystems). Some other (relatively minor) coding that would be required would be a way to track all these items. For starters, once anchored, they need to be found again - something that there is already a shortcoming of. For this, best option would be to add a static personal or corporate bookmark that cannot be removed until the structure itself is unanchored. (this, again, is something that has already been drastically improved upon since the modPOS, with the addition of corporate bookmarks). There also needs to be a way for monitoring the status of a cluster-side spread of assets - this has been done to some extent with the PI interface. The point of bringing this up now was mentioned in my first post, and that is that all the pieces are finally already built, so that it now actually IS an appropriate time to start working on it (I say roll it out next Winter!)

they KNOW theyve doen most fo the coding towarsds modular POS's, but the devs have come rigth out and stated they NO LONGER WANT TO, because the remaining code they would have to alter and rewrite is stuff they dont want to bother touching.

I haven't seen a comment from the devs on this topic in a couple years.

when the new anchorable personal structures were releaxsed the devblog and several accompnying forum devposts talked about how that is the new direction theya re looking at for POS's, since according to their opinions, modular pos's would end in the same development hell WiS was going to be in, and since they already had the next several years development planned out, they couldnt do any centerpiece features like this since it wouldnt fit with the plan, so POS reworking that they want finshed SOONish is being done as a secondary project and therefore is getting minimal development resources to do anything fancy with.
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-12-23 08:28:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Clansworth
Daenika wrote:
Depends on the sunset period. Wormhole logistics, particularly POS-level logistics, operate on a several month time-table (I know, I am the logistics division for my wormhole corp). For most POS stuff, you either have to find a fairly safe high-sec connection and have a number of people online to utilize it, or get one of those rare direct HS connections (rare unless you're living in a C1-C3, that is). Still, I think it's ultimately going to be too much of a change, too much logistical difficulty, for the benefit (and that's not accounting for the development time).


No matter what they do to 'fix' POS's, it's going to be a multi-expansion process (CCP Seagull has specifically said this). There is no real reason the roll-out and sunset can't be in different expansions, putting the transition period at 6+ months - should be enough for any active corp.


  • Expansion 1: Introduce the [racial] mobile starbase platform(s) - a small 2 module skeleton with 2 external hardpoints and a built-in generator that uses a relatively small number of [racial] fuel blocks. Release simple modules (a small factory, a corp hanger, and an sma). Allow use of simple external points (up to large weapons). This could be anchored for corp or self. This would introduce the world to the new system, be relatively simple, and be ultimately a minor iteration on the current mobile depot's capabilities - test out the system with limited world impact good or bad.
  • Expansion 2: Introduce the full sized skeletons, and other modules/external items. This is when corps could start setting up the new starbases.
  • Expansion 3: Sunset the old items. Convert blueprints to the new comparable items to prevent further production. Convert in-cargo items to the new items. Anchored items would remain in operation.
  • Expansion 4: Offline old style items. these could then be unanchored and scooped, where they become the new item.

This can be up to a 2 year plan, but that is totally workable, and provides plenty of room for iteration on point releases to fix problems as they arise.
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-12-23 08:59:10 UTC
Another thing I'd like to mention, and something that goes back to discussions had back in and shortly after beta, is that the reason industrial's had such a high CPU, was that there was an intention for some 'industry' to happen on those ships. That has, obviously, never arrived, and with the recent industrial changes, I don't think it ever will, however, I can see,if a system like I'm discussing is ever come to reality, that the same modules/manuf. slots being discussed here, could theoreticaly be applied to some types of ships. The Rorqual, for starters, is really primarily designed for this (I mean, it deploys into a starbase as is, complete with specialized assembly lines). There could be a change to the rorqual where instead of having it's compression lines built in with the industry module, that it instead fits industry slots, that could be used for other tasks - not just compression. Other large ships could obtain such capabilities as well. Imagine a 'tech 3' industrial class, with various modules (subsystems) that is essentially a small starbase skeleton with a warp drive, and a deployed mode like the rorqual, but without the rorqual's jump drive
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