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Torpedo Volley Only Hitting for about 30% Damage
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Seven zubrowka
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-12-16 19:42:31 UTC
Hello All,

I use a Purifier to blitz certain missions and they usually have me killing a Gallente Fleet Commander (basically a Megathron). My confusions is this: with my skills and the ship bonus to EM damage, my torpedoes should have a volley damage of 3700. However, whenever they land, they seem to do about 1200 or so.

What I am trying to figure out is what is accounting for all that damage loss. Looking at this:

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=15337

The Fleet Commander has: 0% EM shield resistance, a sig of 250m (my explosion radius is 300), and an orbit velocity of 165 m/s (my explosion velocity is 149 m/s). So while he is getting some help from a lower sig and a higher speed, can that really account for a 70% damage reduction?

I looked at the combat log that Eve saves to my documents folder, but it doesn't have numbers or explanations, it simply reports "Caldari Mjolnir Torpedo hit." Is there something else I can do to see how the damage is being applied?

Thanks for any help.
Gh0stBust3rs
Templars HIghsec
Stellar Fusion
#2 - 2013-12-16 19:47:03 UTC
Are you using a target painter at all?


That will improve the sig by 20% or so. See how much damage you do then
Seven zubrowka
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-12-16 19:52:24 UTC
Target Painting 1 just completed training as I read your reply. Using a target painter and maybe some different damage types are the next things I want to try: I just don't know to really measure the effects without a better combat log.

And while a target painter will help, it still does not seem right to me that its sig advantage should mean that much of a damage reduction.
Alcorak
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-12-16 19:56:32 UTC
Space is 3D. Although 250 and 300 seem to not differ by much, when applied to spherical size (cube the numbers and divide), the rat's 'hit box' is ~57.9% of your missile's explosion size, so you're seeing big reduction there. As to the velocity factor.... the equation isn't bad, but I also dont feel like doing it out: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage . At any rate, ~30% appears reasonable. Strongly suggest a target painter (even a T1 would increase the sig radius to eliminate it as a factor in damage reduction), and maybe a web if you're using torps.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#5 - 2013-12-16 19:59:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Alcorak wrote:
Space is 3D. Although 250 and 300 seem to not differ by much, when applied to spherical size (cube the numbers and divide), the rat's 'hit box' is ~57.9% of your missile's explosion size, so you're seeing big reduction there.


This is misleading. Rats do not have hit boxes of course, and the formula itself uses the ratio, not the square or cube of the ratio. In other words, as far as the missile damage formula is concerned, space is not 3D.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Antorbok
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-12-16 20:00:00 UTC
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage

please note this
drf damage reduction factor Note: The smaller the better

Look at where torps are listed there. It can have a large effect aswell.
Seven zubrowka
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-12-16 20:07:57 UTC
Thanks for the replies.

I ran the equation for missile damage with my numbers. Basically, with its sig, I should be doing 83% damage if it is standing still. If it is cruising at it orbit velocity, I should do approximately 75% damage.

That equation includes the damage reduction factor.

Stumped.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#8 - 2013-12-16 20:26:30 UTC
Seven zubrowka wrote:
Thanks for the replies.

I ran the equation for missile damage with my numbers. Basically, with its sig, I should be doing 83% damage if it is standing still. If it is cruising at it orbit velocity, I should do approximately 75% damage.

That equation includes the damage reduction factor.

Stumped.


Is it possible you've found the wrong DB entry for the battleship? The one you linked indicates it would be immune to target painting. Many Gallente mission battleships have EM as their second highest resist (would explain 70% damage reduction). Since you specified "fleet commander" I'm not sure this is the reason. However you're using orbit velocity, that npc entry has a much higher max velocity of over 300m/s. That could explain the reduction as well.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
#9 - 2013-12-16 21:27:50 UTC
You need to add velocity (and sig radius if possible) on your overview and check the target's velocity (and sig radius) during combat.

The fleet commander rat is capable of moving very quickly once its MWD is on.
Seven zubrowka
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-12-16 21:43:31 UTC
I do have velocity displayed.

But, I think Batelle is correct: that database is just wrong and that thing does have an EM resistance.

I just did this test - I fired an EM, an Explosive, and a Kinetic torpedo simultaneously. That should normalize the effects of the sig and velocity across the different damage types.

Results Theoretical Max Damage Damage Delivered

EM : 1234 (Max), 383 (delivered)
Explosive: 771 (Max), 162 (delivered)
Kinetic: 771 (Max), 393 (delivered)

Based on those results, I would roughly estimate the EM resistance at 60%-ish.

My experiment is anecdotal, and i don't know why that database would be that far off - is there a better one I should check out?

Thanks.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#11 - 2013-12-16 22:13:33 UTC
Seven zubrowka wrote:
I do have velocity displayed.

But, I think Batelle is correct: that database is just wrong and that thing does have an EM resistance.

I just did this test - I fired an EM, an Explosive, and a Kinetic torpedo simultaneously. That should normalize the effects of the sig and velocity across the different damage types.

Results Theoretical Max Damage Damage Delivered

EM : 1234 (Max), 383 (delivered)
Explosive: 771 (Max), 162 (delivered)
Kinetic: 771 (Max), 393 (delivered)

Based on those results, I would roughly estimate the EM resistance at 60%-ish.

My experiment is anecdotal, and i don't know why that database would be that far off - is there a better one I should check out?

Thanks.


You shall not forget about the racial flavor a bomber has, the massive damagebonus to EM for your amarrian purifier for example. If you were to repeadetly shoot those gallentean battleships, you should consider using a nemesis, which is bonused to thermal damage (inferno). Second best would be a manticore firing kinetic damage (scourge).

In any case, using rigor-rigs usually helps a lot.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#12 - 2013-12-17 03:37:47 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Seven zubrowka wrote:
Thanks for the replies.

I ran the equation for missile damage with my numbers. Basically, with its sig, I should be doing 83% damage if it is standing still. If it is cruising at it orbit velocity, I should do approximately 75% damage.

That equation includes the damage reduction factor.

Stumped.


Is it possible you've found the wrong DB entry for the battleship? The one you linked indicates it would be immune to target painting. Many Gallente mission battleships have EM as their second highest resist (would explain 70% damage reduction). Since you specified "fleet commander" I'm not sure this is the reason. However you're using orbit velocity, that npc entry has a much higher max velocity of over 300m/s. That could explain the reduction as well.



they tend to have 0 shield em resist, but the armor resist is much higher.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
stoicfaux
#13 - 2013-12-17 05:02:09 UTC
0% shields and 60% armor versus EM. The Gallente Navy Fleet Commander (not sure why chruker's has it listed as Federation instead of Gallente) has an EHP of 32,500 against EM.

It would help if you listed all the damage entries against the ship from the logs. You should see the more damage being done against the shields followed by damage dropping off when you get the target into armor.


There's also a chance that the NPC was coasting at high speed. NPCs will MWD towards you and then shut off the MWD and coast to you at high speed (and normal sig size,) which is detrimental to missile damage.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Seven zubrowka
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-12-17 07:15:03 UTC
I think it definitely has some EM shield resist. Regardless of speed, the kinetic torps consistently did a little bit more damage than the EM torps to both the shield and armor. It is striking because the purifier bestows all that extra EM damage.

You all are right about the speed, that battleship can move! However, while that did mitigate the damage of all three types of torpedoes, kinetic still hit harder than EM on those shields.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-12-17 07:49:39 UTC
Keep in mind defenders. I've not seen them on gallente NPCs before, but equally I've not shot the fleet commander ones. I doubt it is your issue, but something to keep in mind.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-12-17 11:59:30 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Try ungrouping and regrouping your launchers. Sometimes that gets bugged and activates only one instead of the group. Would perfectly explain your 1/3 damage. Check your ammo levels in the firing window after firing to confirm if this was the case.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Seven zubrowka
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-12-17 13:09:15 UTC
Quote:
Try ungrouping and regrouping your launchers. Sometimes that gets bugged and activates only one instead of the group. Would perfectly explain your 1/3 damage. Check your ammo levels in the firing window after firing to confirm if this was the case.


Wow, that really happens? I don't think that is the issue in this case, I did ungroup the launchers when I fired the different torpedo types. But, I will look out for that.

Hmm, defenders...
stoicfaux
#18 - 2013-12-18 04:15:59 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Keep in mind defenders. I've not seen them on gallente NPCs before, but equally I've not shot the fleet commander ones. I doubt it is your issue, but something to keep in mind.

My theory, from an old NPC defender testing thread, is that this NPC only has a missile damage multiplier of 1.9 which isn't enough for a defender to kill a torpedo.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#19 - 2013-12-19 20:18:16 UTC
Seven zubrowka wrote:
But, I think Batelle is correct: that database is just wrong and that thing does have an EM resistance.


As far as I'm concerned that database is the NPC bible. I use it for everything, and it has *never* led me wrong.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-12-19 21:23:18 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Seven zubrowka wrote:
But, I think Batelle is correct: that database is just wrong and that thing does have an EM resistance.


As far as I'm concerned that database is the NPC bible. I use it for everything, and it has *never* led me wrong.


It's not perfect. I wanted to use bombers against Sleepless Guardians, since it says they have no rep capability. But they do.
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