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CFC Declares War on N3.

First post
Author
MestariBation
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#261 - 2013-12-17 01:51:53 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yeah, let's crash the node so they'll stop shooting at us, and log back in again so we can be shot at some more.


Better than losing an entire dread fleet -- which is exactly what would have happened if the node hadn't crashed.

Rough ordering of events:

1) Slowcat fleet deployed by N3

2) Naglfar fleet deployed by CFC
a) This I would say was demonstrated to be a successful counter to slowcats. Before other events took place, the dreads killed approx ~15 - 20 carriers while only suffering 2 - 3 losses

b) However, the Naglfar fleet was not a counter for the:

3) 40 Titans deployed by N3
These were doomsdaying down the Nags pretty hard. It's a single target attack, so it's minimal node stress. Just fancy graphics on your client, but Titans are not a node killer.

Once the titans came out, I saw about 15 dreads drop in a 20 minute period from CFC, with only a few additional carrier losses. Basically, the entire fight flip flopped.

In summary:

Stop bitching about slowcats, those aren't what killed you (at least not on their own). You have bigger problems to worry about, such as Titans and Supercapitals in general.

CFC really needs to step up their strategic assets if they don't want to just play the part of the bugs in this war.

Also, I find it silly that an alliance that has minimal experience fielding proper capital fleets (let alone supercapital fleets) compared to their opposition, feels qualified to talk about balance on the issue.



We would not have these node crashing problems if ccp would switch doomsday back to aoe kill the entire grid

Shorter cooldown like 1minute and able to switch to aeo if necessary.

Send me isk im poor

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#262 - 2013-12-17 01:55:16 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Do you actually have a specific rebuttal, or are you really just saying "nuuuu slowcat not imba cuz I like dem"?


I never said that, and I think it makes you look more than a bit silly putting words in my mouth.

I guess I just have too many years of RTS and strategy games in general behind me to take casual cries of "OP" seriously anymore.

Your coalition has barely even scratched the surface of ATTEMPTING to counter the opposition fleet compositions, and you're crying endlessly about imbalance and nerfs.

The Nags worked pretty damn well, if not outright hard countered the slowcats. That was mainly my point.

But when the other party has /40 more Titans/ than you do on the field, it makes talking about "balance" rather moot.

Once your coalition has the power to field an equivalent fleet, THEN you can talk about balance.

Until then, it just sounds like you're crying because the other party has a whole lot of big shiny ships and you guys don't.
Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#263 - 2013-12-17 01:55:58 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yeah, let's crash the node so they'll stop shooting at us, and log back in again so we can be shot at some more.


Better than losing an entire dread fleet -- which is exactly what would have happened if the node hadn't crashed.

Rough ordering of events:

1) Slowcat fleet deployed by N3

2) Naglfar fleet deployed by CFC
a) This I would say was demonstrated to be a successful counter to slowcats. Before other events took place, the dreads killed approx ~15 - 20 carriers while only suffering 2 - 3 losses

b) However, the Naglfar fleet was not a counter for the:

3) 40 Titans deployed by N3
These were doomsdaying down the Nags pretty hard. It's a single target attack, so it's minimal node stress. Just fancy graphics on your client, but Titans are not a node killer.

Once the titans came out, I saw about 15 dreads drop in a 20 minute period from CFC, with only a few additional carrier losses. Basically, the entire fight flip flopped.

In summary:

Stop bitching about slowcats, those aren't what killed you (at least not on their own). You have bigger problems to worry about, such as Titans and Supercapitals in general.

CFC really needs to step up their strategic assets if they don't want to just play the part of the bugs in this war.

Also, I find it silly that an alliance that has minimal experience fielding proper capital fleets (let alone supercapital fleets) compared to their opposition, feels qualified to talk about balance on the issue.



We would not have these node crashing problems if ccp would switch doomsday back to aoe kill the entire grid



As ****** up logic as it is i laughed pretty good.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#264 - 2013-12-17 01:56:34 UTC
Yeah let's break titans again, that's totally a good solution to node crashes.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#265 - 2013-12-17 01:57:20 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Do you actually have a specific rebuttal, or are you really just saying "nuuuu slowcat not imba cuz I like dem"?


I never said that, and I think it makes you look more than a bit silly putting words in my mouth.

I guess I just have too many years of RTS and strategy games in general behind me to take casual cries of "OP" seriously anymore.

Your coalition has barely even scratched the surface of ATTEMPTING to counter the opposition fleet compositions, and you're crying endlessly about imbalance and nerfs.

The Nags worked pretty damn well, if not outright hard countered the slowcats. That was mainly my point.

But when the other party has /40 more Titans/ than you do on the field, it makes talking about "balance" rather moot.

Once your coalition has the power to field an equivalent fleet, THEN you can talk about balance.

Until then, it just sounds like you're crying because the other party has a whole lot of big shiny ships and you guys don't.

So obviously you don't understand what balance actually means.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#266 - 2013-12-17 02:02:18 UTC
Imbalance happens when there is a strategy that has no real counter.

Demonstrating this often takes a substantial amount of time, and it requires you to exhaust the possibilities.

Brood War, which has a very rich history in terms of the metagame, has gone through phases where certain strategies were thought to be overpowered as **** (no counter) but years later - counters were discovered within the current mechanics, and what was once considered OP is now considered weak.

And these aren't just "casuals." We're talking about professionals who are paid to win and paid even more when they do.

To come on the forums and constantly whine and ***** about balance, while fielding a fleet that is not even 25% as valuable as the opposition fleet.....Is sad.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#267 - 2013-12-17 02:06:35 UTC
EVE is not an RTS.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

MestariBation
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#268 - 2013-12-17 02:13:13 UTC
everything that counter 1000 nerd megafleet is unbalanced

Send me isk im poor

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#269 - 2013-12-17 02:14:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
EVE is not an RTS.


Actually from a battle viewpoint, it is exactly that.

True, it's not an "RTS" in the sense of a traditional game, but from a balance perspective it can be (and is) approached in exactly the same way by CCP.

You're just going to have to deal with it.

If you aren't willing to put the same level of assets on the field -- expect to be crushed -- and expect to be laughed at by the community when you claim it's because of "imbalance."

I guess from a certain perspective the CFC whining is proper. It isn't "balanced" when the other team has a fleet that is 10x more valuable.....But that's an imbalance of infrastructure, resources, and experience, not an imbalance of ships within their brackets. That is the difference.

There may be imbalance, but if there is, CFC has done a **** poor job of showing it.
Proletariat Tingtango
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#270 - 2013-12-17 02:26:33 UTC
Pinky Hops I would agree with you completely if you weren't talking about supers, but supers are actually game breaking and should be deleted from the game and you can't defend their power.
Molenius Morrowinger
Doomheim
#271 - 2013-12-17 02:32:53 UTC
When CFC kicked off TEST from Fountain everything was balanced. But when goons lost a few dreads EVE suddenly became *unbalanced*.

Shall we expect hotfix from CCP nerfing slowcats?
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#272 - 2013-12-17 03:12:14 UTC
Molenius Morrowinger wrote:
When CFC kicked off TEST from Fountain everything was balanced. But when goons lost a few dreads EVE suddenly became *unbalanced*.

Shall we expect hotfix from CCP nerfing slowcats?


The archon / drone assist pairing is a bit over the top. The counter to ishtar / dominix blobs (bombers) is not very effective on them, and IMO dreads aren't a very good counter, it seems like you need more dreads than archons, and even if the dreads start winning it doesn't seem to mean they'll stay winning as the alpha lines (1 hit kill, 2 hit kill), all represent serious reductions in effectiveness when sufficient dreads die to fall below those lines.

TEST running out of friends isn't something that CCP can rebalance. Its rather telling that they haven't yet "honorably 4th partied" the current war as yet.

WarFireV
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#273 - 2013-12-17 03:30:59 UTC
TEST in its current state would not add much to the war. Everyone who was anyone left that boat.
Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2013-12-17 04:51:23 UTC
Well just reading this last page because TL:DR

Arcon groups are overly tough and hard to counter everyone accepts this I wouldnt nessary call them OP myself... and there is a counter option being LR Dreds.. unfortunately there is a counter for that aswell Titans..

Int he end the issue isnt about that they are OP.. its that because N3 have so dam many of them which they can pretty much effectivly feild at any moment in large numbers, which they do (I personally havn't seen them drop less than a 100 at any time).. this means their opponet needs to field larger numbers to fight.. and then the titans drop and then node crashes.. and no fun is had by anyone.


If we were only seeing fleets of 50 Arcons there wouldnt be the tears you see about them as it would be a fightable number
Honest Blob
Doomheim
#275 - 2013-12-17 20:20:54 UTC
For those claiming cfc didnt try and crash the node

Quote:
[ 2013.12.16 03:47:14 ] EVE System > Channel MOTD: OMEGA NAGS (DD TANK FIT) AND DOMI's 5/5/5 garde/curator/wardern
[ 2013.12.16 03:52:50 ] Dabigredboat > Ok ******* time to do something silly
[ 2013.12.16 03:53:32 ] Dabigredboat > start logging off dreads, gogogogogo
[ 2013.12.16 03:54:01 ] Jaag Jaff > -1 Nag
[ 2013.12.16 03:54:31 ] CALUGARU > -1 nag as well
[ 2013.12.16 03:55:51 ] Dabigredboat > guys, keep logging in and out again
[ 2013.12.16 03:56:12 ] Dabigredboat > for all those in domi's launch drones now
MestariBation
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#276 - 2013-12-17 20:32:03 UTC
Honest Blob wrote:
For those claiming cfc didnt try and crash the node

Quote:
[ 2013.12.16 03:47:14 ] EVE System > Channel MOTD: OMEGA NAGS (DD TANK FIT) AND DOMI's 5/5/5 garde/curator/wardern
[ 2013.12.16 03:52:50 ] Dabigredboat > Ok ******* time to do something silly
[ 2013.12.16 03:53:32 ] Dabigredboat > start logging off dreads, gogogogogo
[ 2013.12.16 03:54:01 ] Jaag Jaff > -1 Nag
[ 2013.12.16 03:54:31 ] CALUGARU > -1 nag as well
[ 2013.12.16 03:55:51 ] Dabigredboat > guys, keep logging in and out again
[ 2013.12.16 03:56:12 ] Dabigredboat > for all those in domi's launch drones now

In that r3tard fake chat, where does he say crash the nöde?

Send me isk im poor

Honest Blob
Doomheim
#277 - 2013-12-17 20:40:31 UTC
MestariBation wrote:
Honest Blob wrote:
For those claiming cfc didnt try and crash the node

Quote:
[ 2013.12.16 03:47:14 ] EVE System > Channel MOTD: OMEGA NAGS (DD TANK FIT) AND DOMI's 5/5/5 garde/curator/wardern
[ 2013.12.16 03:52:50 ] Dabigredboat > Ok ******* time to do something silly
[ 2013.12.16 03:53:32 ] Dabigredboat > start logging off dreads, gogogogogo
[ 2013.12.16 03:54:01 ] Jaag Jaff > -1 Nag
[ 2013.12.16 03:54:31 ] CALUGARU > -1 nag as well
[ 2013.12.16 03:55:51 ] Dabigredboat > guys, keep logging in and out again
[ 2013.12.16 03:56:12 ] Dabigredboat > for all those in domi's launch drones now

In that r3tard fake chat, where does he say crash the nöde?



Yes very fake, if you want have ccp check thier logs they will confirm this was said in fleet.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1t3375/dy_goonfleet_loggs_352am/

Do you know what server stress is? Or how servers work at all?
MestariBation
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#278 - 2013-12-17 20:49:07 UTC
Honest Blob wrote:
MestariBation wrote:
Honest Blob wrote:
For those claiming cfc didnt try and crash the node

Quote:
[ 2013.12.16 03:47:14 ] EVE System > Channel MOTD: OMEGA NAGS (DD TANK FIT) AND DOMI's 5/5/5 garde/curator/wardern
[ 2013.12.16 03:52:50 ] Dabigredboat > Ok ******* time to do something silly
[ 2013.12.16 03:53:32 ] Dabigredboat > start logging off dreads, gogogogogo
[ 2013.12.16 03:54:01 ] Jaag Jaff > -1 Nag
[ 2013.12.16 03:54:31 ] CALUGARU > -1 nag as well
[ 2013.12.16 03:55:51 ] Dabigredboat > guys, keep logging in and out again
[ 2013.12.16 03:56:12 ] Dabigredboat > for all those in domi's launch drones now

In that r3tard fake chat, where does he say crash the nöde?



Yes very fake, if you want have ccp check thier logs they will confirm this was said in fleet.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1t3375/dy_goonfleet_loggs_352am/

Do you know what server stress is? Or how servers work at all?

Yes I do, do you?

Send me isk im poor

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#279 - 2013-12-17 21:03:33 UTC
You see, kids, if this game was truly the festering cauldron of PVP that everybody going "grrr highsec income" says it should be, then RESOURCES (metal for example) would be FINITE to such measure that building supers and caps galore would cause entire regions to run dry eventually.

(and then the only resource is salvage and anything that can be discovered)


All of this "this is Eve, HTFU, it's a PVP game. grrr grrr go back to WoW" crap is meaningless so long as resources respawn.


Back in the days of Yor for example, the greatsword was the counter to warhorses. Ever fight with a horse? A 1 ton warhorse? How about someone on that horse trying to kill you?

Hard. I've had to deal with a PO'ed girlfriend on a half ton horse that can pin people on command let me tell you being charged even by a pony is no fun.

But...

the greatswords... they can really mess up a warhorse. Even if the heavy horse and rider can win.

But it takes a LOT of resources to breed, raise, and train that horse. The rider too. This was a very limited and expensive resource.

You cannot just throw cavalry at the front lines. (hint hint)

So, this was a LIMITED resource meaning that if the counter is just a couple of yards of steel, very cheap in comparison, it was effective because it made commanders have to think twice. It was not a matter of "just keep blobbing until you win" because eventually you'd be out of cavalry and broke too.

So Eve Online... well... the rocks respawn and the moons just keep spewing the goo and the alliances can just keep churning out these ships the size of Manhatten.

People speak of content, and OP, and nerfs, when all the game needs is to have FINITE resources such that these days of super blobs would be seen as a titanic era, but then come the "salvage wars" as people, post the end of the world super blob wars where the kings took out entire forests for armadas (Lebanon for example), and now nothing but the dead hulls - to fight over for the metal.

But those who played it smart would still have them.

Those who thought twice. (Thinking once is a huge challenge for 21st century humans, it seems).


All of this would be moot, and the game would be everything the e-Peeners insist that it is, if all of these resources were finite. All conflict in our history is about resources.




Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Rattman
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#280 - 2013-12-17 21:16:48 UTC
Nothing will happen to them

Goons have to much influence with CCP.

If goons say jump CCP say how high.

Its a pity but thats how the game is now.