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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Missile pirate ships

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Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#61 - 2013-12-11 20:11:28 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I would really like to see a missile focused pirate race at some point. As posters above have noted, the trick is figuring out how to make such a race feel unique and distinct since we have such a large variety of missile archetypes covered between Caldari, Minmatar and Amarr already. At this point we're more focused on figuring out how to get the current pirate ships into a healthier state than on adding new ones, but I would not be surprised whatsoever if the next pirate faction we add (someday) is primarily missile focused.

You just added another drone pirate line of ships. Why not use this as an opportunity and rebalance Guristas vessels into proper missile ones (as they should be)?


I'd rather they not. Guristas are the only shield tanking drone boats.
Daniel Koskanaikeno
Hideaway Alts
The Hideaway.
#62 - 2013-12-11 20:18:01 UTC
Guristas Raven please!
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#63 - 2013-12-13 02:11:35 UTC
Meditril wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Missiles (especially small ones) are already close to be overpowered mainly because there is no weapon working against them (except for Defender Missiles which simply don't work in practice). Putting them on pirate ships would result in an overpowered ship for sure. Therefore a clear NO to this idea.


You must play in some alternate Eve universe...


Maybe... I am usually playing with frigates in low-sec and faction warefare. In this playing field missiles are absolutely OP with regards to kiting. You can't reliably speed tank them (talking about small missiles), you can't reliably sig tank them, you can't tracking disrupt them, you can't neutralize them with cap warefare. Even ECM doesn't work if the enemy is using FOF missiles. The only thing you can do is using Defender Missiles which don't really work since a) you need spare missiles slots and b) you have to spam the button all the time to keep them running.


I'll admit that it has been a while since I (or my alts) were in low-sec and/or FW. But I have to ask: You really get killed by FOF missiles on a regular basis?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#64 - 2013-12-13 11:32:16 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Meditril wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Missiles (especially small ones) are already close to be overpowered mainly because there is no weapon working against them (except for Defender Missiles which simply don't work in practice). Putting them on pirate ships would result in an overpowered ship for sure. Therefore a clear NO to this idea.


You must play in some alternate Eve universe...


Maybe... I am usually playing with frigates in low-sec and faction warefare. In this playing field missiles are absolutely OP with regards to kiting. You can't reliably speed tank them (talking about small missiles), you can't reliably sig tank them, you can't tracking disrupt them, you can't neutralize them with cap warefare. Even ECM doesn't work if the enemy is using FOF missiles. The only thing you can do is using Defender Missiles which don't really work since a) you need spare missiles slots and b) you have to spam the button all the time to keep them running.


I'll admit that it has been a while since I (or my alts) were in low-sec and/or FW. But I have to ask: You really get killed by FOF missiles on a regular basis?


They only come into play when someone brings ECM or damps along, but in those situations they're immensely useful. Instead of doing 0 dps and dying, you do something like 80% of your normal dps and can continue killing everything with overpowered light missiles.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#65 - 2013-12-13 15:46:37 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I would really like to see a missile focused pirate race at some point. As posters above have noted, the trick is figuring out how to make such a race feel unique and distinct since we have such a large variety of missile archetypes covered between Caldari, Minmatar and Amarr already. At this point we're more focused on figuring out how to get the current pirate ships into a healthier state than on adding new ones, but I would not be surprised whatsoever if the next pirate faction we add (someday) is primarily missile focused.

You just added another drone pirate line of ships. Why not use this as an opportunity and rebalance Guristas vessels into proper missile ones (as they should be)?


I'd rather they not. Guristas are the only shield tanking drone boats.


you haven't flown Gallente yet then? /sarcasm...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#66 - 2013-12-13 17:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
There's zero point in discussing missile Pirate ships, because missiles are now officially FUBAR'd. Between the heavy missile nerf a year ago, the disaster that has now befallen the rapid light and rapid heavy missile launchers and the continuing outclassed torpedoes - missiles are inherently broken. Can anyone say "Phoenix"?

I can't believe that in the short span of a year we've managed to entirely kill off one weapon type. If I were the Caldari I think I'd be making peace gestures to the Gallente, because at the rate things are going there are going to be three Empires. I want my missile SP back.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alphonse Barret McProducer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2013-12-13 17:43:07 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
There's zero point in discussing missile Pirate ships, because missiles are now officially FUBAR'd. Between the heavy missile nerf a year ago, the disaster that has now befallen the rapid light and rapid heavy missile launchers and the continuing outclassed torpedoes - missiles are inherently broken. Can anyone say "Phoenix"?

I can't believe that in the short span of a year we've managed to entirely kill off one weapon type. If I were the Caldari I think I'd be making peace gestures to the Gallente, because at the rate things are going there are going to be three Empires. I want my missile SP back.


Cruise missiles are still keeping me happy. A nano'd cruis 'phoon is still the best "battlecruiser" IMO (BC tank and mobility, BS damage, large utility). Warp speed changes helped hurt that a bit though.

This probably means cruise missiles are next up to the chopping block.

Back to topic:
A missile focused pirate faction would make me very happy, if it offered roles that are
A) Not currently available on missile platforms
B) Actually GD useful
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#68 - 2013-12-13 17:50:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I would really like to see a missile focused pirate race at some point. As posters above have noted, the trick is figuring out how to make such a race feel unique and distinct since we have such a large variety of missile archetypes covered between Caldari, Minmatar and Amarr already. At this point we're more focused on figuring out how to get the current pirate ships into a healthier state than on adding new ones, but I would not be surprised whatsoever if the next pirate faction we add (someday) is primarily missile focused.


New line of mordus ships that take over the shield/drone role
Move gurstas back to a missile focused role, or even back to their old design of missiles and hybrid turrets.

Make mordus caldari/gallente
make guristas caldari/minmatar

The transition would be bumpy, so the guristas ships would overnight magically turn into mordus ships with new models but identical stats/slot layouts and skill requirements.

Introduce new line of guristas ships using existing models for worm/gila/rattlesnake.

This would be good because Mordus legion are not a pirate faction, thus they could reasonably have agents added to empire space, and the new guristas ships could be supplied as per normal from LP or drops.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#69 - 2013-12-13 19:50:19 UTC
More like Mordus should be the Caldari/Minmatar missile pirate faction. Such a golden opportunity. Shields, speed, webs and/or application bonus, and missiles. They would be epic small gang and solo ships much like the Angel ships used to be.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-12-16 19:22:01 UTC
Personally I'd like to see them added as a new pirate/npc faction..

Some new PVE content.. new set of missions.. new sites.. maybe even a common pirate found in all empires.. Cause lets face it, a lot of the PVE has got stale.. we need new missions.. new challenges.. ideally something new that a Tengu CAN'T do :p
zbaaca
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#71 - 2013-12-16 19:42:11 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
ideally something new that a Tengu CAN'T do :p

lold. current tengu is master of none.it's specialization is too vague (unlike everything) , so it can do everything

Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#72 - 2013-12-16 20:59:09 UTC
I like the idea of Caldari-Minmatar ships; missile damage, shield resistance and shield boost bonuses.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#73 - 2013-12-16 22:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Daenika
Quote:
Messing around in EFT it looks like it basically boils down to webs being better against fast targets and TPs being better against smaller ships that have no prop mod or have had their speed reduced via the MWD being shut off by a warp scram/disruptor or a web. Though that operates off the idea of them having similar range and similar overall effect, which can only really happen on a Huginn or Rapier I believe. Otherwise webs are quite a bit stronger but much shorter range, as should be expected.

Also based on EFT I stand by my original statement that a Loki-level range bonus to webs and a max 50% TP effectiveness bonus is pretty much a wash in my eyes. Either would be great for a missile boat faction.


Mathematically, halving the velocity of something is identical to doubling it's sig. That applies to both missile damage and to turret miss chance from tracking (though of course, for turrets, it's the transversal that must be halved, not just the total velocity).

The missile equation directly multiplies the ratio of the sig radius to the explosion radius against the ratio of the explosion velocity to the target's velocity). As a result, multiplying the velocity or sig by any factor is mathematically equivalent to multiplying the other of those two by the inverse of that factor. Same thing for turrets, except the turret's signature resolution is used instead of the missile's explosion radius, the target's angular velocity is used instead of linear velocity, and the turret's tracking is used instead of the missile's explosion velocity.

A 50% web would require a 100% sig increase. A 60% web would require a 150% sig increase. The equivalent of a 50% TP is a 33% reduction in velocity.



Either way, I'm a big fan of the idea of a missile primary pirate faction. Both range-bonused webs and effect-bonused TPs make sense for that. Webs are designed more for close-to-mid range, TPs for long, and both fit the character. The web bonus would certainly be more powerful for the purposes of damage application, but it also forces a closer-range fit (which generally also means forcing close-range missile types). TPs would allow either, and while now as powerful for damage application, they are a damage multiplier.

The painters would also likely have less impact on sov warfare (less useful in blobs) and thus be more gang-focused. Given that they already have their eye on fleet webbing bonuses, I'd say the TPs probably make more sense from a balance perspective. They are also a noticeably absent bonus from pirate vessels, and thus fill a gap.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2013-12-16 22:25:51 UTC
Whilst cruises are defintely still OK, Torps are pointless and the Rapid Heavy and Rapid Lights are really only useful in very short PvP fights ... viz. 1v1 or suicide ganking.

I presume the OP is after some improved pirate version of the CNR but will people pay the ISK for a billion ISK missile ship??

The Rattlesnake is a good case in point. Since the Dominix became the preferred drone boat the Rattlesnake prices have plummeted to around 400 mill ISK , occasionally less. People do not seem to want shiney missile ships.

... and "Balancing" the rattlesnake by improving its missiles and nerfing the drone side would make it even less popular.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#75 - 2013-12-16 22:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Whilst cruises are defintely still OK, Torps are pointless and the Rapid Heavy and Rapid Lights are really only useful in very short PvP fights ... viz. 1v1 or suicide ganking.

I presume the OP is after some improved pirate version of the CNR but will people pay the ISK for a billion ISK missile ship??

The Rattlesnake is a good case in point. Since the Dominix became the preferred drone boat the Rattlesnake prices have plummeted to around 400 mill ISK , occasionally less. People do not seem to want shiney missile ships.

... and "Balancing" the rattlesnake by improving its missiles and nerfing the drone side would make it even less popular.



this would be the problem. Even after cruise fix and marauder redo we haven't shaken the great CNR vs Golem debate. Golem has the shield boost even (and improved resistant profile in bastion). Still CNR a very viable and cheaper solution.

Main issue I see is ccp across the T1, t2, and navy has worked all it can with missile bonuses. Not really a good way to avoid just reskinning current boats and calling it new.

At the bs level I am doubting we'd see 5% per for even kinetic damage to spice things up. Without the caveat of less launchers at any rate (this based on the fact CNR was altered to not have its "extra" launcher rof wise). Even if lucky to have it with full launchers would people pay for it? Given current missile calcs and the great missile debates going on it would not be the same for say guns for when you connect that 25% (at skill level 5) is 25% when it hits. For missiles this 25% could be reduced to a mere 5%'s applicable damage size and speed of target depending.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#76 - 2013-12-16 22:50:14 UTC
"People do not want shiny missile ships"

...have you looked at Golem prices?
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#77 - 2013-12-16 23:04:05 UTC
Quote:
For missiles this 25% could be reduced to a mere 5%'s applicable damage size and speed of target depending.


Multipliers are still multipliers. People don't seem to realize it, but velocity and sig have just as much - if not more - impact on turrets as they do missiles, since turrets lose damage and hit chance simultaneously.

Still, if you increase the raw damage by 25%, that's always going to be a 25% increase to applied damage. Period. Doesn't matter if it's turrets, missiles, drones, or bloody smartbombs, increasing the base damage increases the applied damage by the same factor in all circumstances that more than 0 damage is dealt.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#78 - 2013-12-16 23:50:54 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
"People do not want shiny missile ships"

...have you looked at Golem prices?



thats t2 change speculation and bastion ability price adjustment.

Look at kronos prices. Players months ago who picked these up cheaper are getting a nice payday. they shot a few hundred million in price as well. As did all the marauders.

T2 sellers are like car sellers. Oh you want floor mats in your car, thats a bit more to the price we have to add lol.

stoicfaux
#79 - 2013-12-17 04:34:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I would really like to see a missile focused pirate race at some point. As posters above have noted, the trick is figuring out how to make such a race feel unique and distinct since we have such a large variety of missile archetypes covered between Caldari, Minmatar and Amarr already.

Faction bonus to reload time of Rapid Launchers. Duh.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-12-17 07:27:58 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I'm certainly happy to support a proposal that we could do with a few more missile platforms, especially pirate ships.


Talk to the CSM about it. Hopefully they'll get on a proposal for this :)