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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Missile pirate ships

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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#21 - 2013-12-11 03:15:40 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
webs are a much better bonused mod than target painters.


Unless one wants to engage at long range.


Not much utility in engaging outside gang-linked, overheated point range.


Snipers and kiters disagree.


Webs let you control range, which helps you kite more effectively.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#22 - 2013-12-11 03:24:14 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
webs are a much better bonused mod than target painters.


Unless one wants to engage at long range.


Not much utility in engaging outside gang-linked, overheated point range.


Snipers and kiters disagree.


Webs let you control range, which helps you kite more effectively.


Here's the thing. If you give a ship a web range bonus, then yes it helps kiting against short-ranged opponents. If you give a TP effectiveness bonus to a ship it has a greater effect in terms of damage application from farther away. These two things are not in direct competition. They cater to different play styles.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#23 - 2013-12-11 03:33:49 UTC
Also are we talking Huginn web range or Loki web range? I tend to think Huginn web range would be a bit much on pirate ships with the standard pirate ship combat ability.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#24 - 2013-12-11 03:38:28 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Also are we talking Huginn web range or Loki web range? I tend to think Huginn web range would be a bit much on pirate ships with the standard pirate ship combat ability.


I think Loki web range.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#25 - 2013-12-11 03:41:28 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Also are we talking Huginn web range or Loki web range? I tend to think Huginn web range would be a bit much on pirate ships with the standard pirate ship combat ability.


I think Loki web range.


Honestly that or a TP effectiveness bonus is a wash for me. Either would be a great fit for missile boats and would actually help them overcome the issues that missiles face overall (at least somewhat).
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#26 - 2013-12-11 06:48:32 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Also are we talking Huginn web range or Loki web range? I tend to think Huginn web range would be a bit much on pirate ships with the standard pirate ship combat ability.


I think Loki web range.


Honestly that or a TP effectiveness bonus is a wash for me. Either would be a great fit for missile boats and would actually help them overcome the issues that missiles face overall (at least somewhat).


I just look at it like this: how often do you see a TP on the Huginn? Almost never. To me, that means the average Eve player views the web as exponentially better.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#27 - 2013-12-11 06:59:28 UTC
Wayward Hero wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
As a missile user, I have no capital warfare to look forward to since the Phoenix is useless, so where's my "endgame" subcap content? Other than cross-training into guns, what do I have to look forward to?


Tengu?

Widow?

Though I do agree, Gurista's faction ships could use some missile-focused lovin'.
In my perfect world they would keep the drone bonuses and also receive a missile boost (extra launchers or +damage role bonuses)



its not the hulls, its cause there has been soo meny people whineing about missiles (null-gimps) mainly because of the drake fleet doctrines and such, that they were nerfed into the ground. and stop with the tengu is OP!! its only "OP" mainly due to its overuse due to the amount of people who were trained for caldari/missles for missions back in the day.

a proposed FIX could be much lower flight time but much higher velocity/speed, this gives better dammage projection.
next for damage application missles need smaller explosive radius and higher explosive velocity.

again missles are not OP as due to the above "FIXes" you only hit for 50% or less on moving targets and due to lower speed they can easly be out ran so the fuel is spent and dont even explode. also if target sig/speed is sufficient they recive 0 or less damage.


PS. +1 for primary missile pirate boat

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#28 - 2013-12-11 07:00:54 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Also are we talking Huginn web range or Loki web range? I tend to think Huginn web range would be a bit much on pirate ships with the standard pirate ship combat ability.


I think Loki web range.


Honestly that or a TP effectiveness bonus is a wash for me. Either would be a great fit for missile boats and would actually help them overcome the issues that missiles face overall (at least somewhat).


I just look at it like this: how often do you see a TP on the Huginn? Almost never. To me, that means the average Eve player views the web as exponentially better.


i somewhat agree, but Target painters are used often in wspace for pve.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#29 - 2013-12-11 07:01:43 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Also are we talking Huginn web range or Loki web range? I tend to think Huginn web range would be a bit much on pirate ships with the standard pirate ship combat ability.


I think Loki web range.


Honestly that or a TP effectiveness bonus is a wash for me. Either would be a great fit for missile boats and would actually help them overcome the issues that missiles face overall (at least somewhat).


I just look at it like this: how often do you see a TP on the Huginn? Almost never. To me, that means the average Eve player views the web as exponentially better.


Yes but we already established that it wouldn't be getting that level of bonus. A Loki-level web range bonus versus a max 50% TP effectiveness bonus? Yeah that's pretty close in my opinion.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#30 - 2013-12-11 07:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
FT Diomedes wrote:
I just look at it like this: how often do you see a TP on the Huginn? Almost never. To me, that means the average Eve player views the web as exponentially better.

Because to achieve same effect(damage application with missiles) of a 60% web with TPs you'll need to increase target's sig by 2.5 times and thats more than 2 modules without information warfare links or more than 1 with links. To get better than 2 webs you'll need to apply more than 4 link-bonused TPs from Huginn.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Jake Sake
Doomheim
#31 - 2013-12-11 07:18:55 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
...also if target sig/speed is sufficient they recive 0 or less damage...


So they get repaired? Kewl!
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#32 - 2013-12-11 07:26:37 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
I just look at it like this: how often do you see a TP on the Huginn? Almost never. To me, that means the average Eve player views the web as exponentially better.

Because to achieve same effect(damage application with missiles) of a 60% web with TPs you'll need to increase target's sig by 2.5 times and thats more than 2 modules without information warfare links or more than 1 with links. To get better than 2 webs you'll need to apply more than 4 link-bonused TPs from Huginn.


Pretty sure it completely depends on the base sig size of the target and what it's base speed is.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#33 - 2013-12-11 07:50:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
I just look at it like this: how often do you see a TP on the Huginn? Almost never. To me, that means the average Eve player views the web as exponentially better.

Because to achieve same effect(damage application with missiles) of a 60% web with TPs you'll need to increase target's sig by 2.5 times and thats more than 2 modules without information warfare links or more than 1 with links. To get better than 2 webs you'll need to apply more than 4 link-bonused TPs from Huginn.


Pretty sure it completely depends on the base sig size of the target and what it's base speed is.

Nope. Doesn't matter at all. For the same reason Rigor rigs are better than Flare in any given situation (T1 Rigor is about 1% worse than T2 Flare).

Well, there are some exceptions but general rule is: if your damage application is not 100% with missiles and target is moving - web is better than TP (one of exceptions would be a very slow moving target with small sig, but probability of that happening is low).

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#34 - 2013-12-11 08:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zvaarian the Red
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
I just look at it like this: how often do you see a TP on the Huginn? Almost never. To me, that means the average Eve player views the web as exponentially better.

Because to achieve same effect(damage application with missiles) of a 60% web with TPs you'll need to increase target's sig by 2.5 times and thats more than 2 modules without information warfare links or more than 1 with links. To get better than 2 webs you'll need to apply more than 4 link-bonused TPs from Huginn.


Pretty sure it completely depends on the base sig size of the target and what it's base speed is.

Nope. Doesn't matter at all. For the same reason Rigor rigs are better than Flare in any given situation and (T1 Rigor is about 1% worse than T2 Flare).

Well, there are some exceptions but general rule is: if your damage application is not 100% with missiles and target is moving - web is better than TP (one of exceptions would be a very slow moving target with small sig, but probability of that happening is low).


Messing around in EFT it looks like it basically boils down to webs being better against fast targets and TPs being better against smaller ships that have no prop mod or have had their speed reduced via the MWD being shut off by a warp scram/disruptor or a web. Though that operates off the idea of them having similar range and similar overall effect, which can only really happen on a Huginn or Rapier I believe. Otherwise webs are quite a bit stronger but much shorter range, as should be expected.

Also based on EFT I stand by my original statement that a Loki-level range bonus to webs and a max 50% TP effectiveness bonus is pretty much a wash in my eyes. Either would be great for a missile boat faction.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#35 - 2013-12-11 09:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Also based on EFT I stand by my original statement that a Loki-level range bonus to webs and a max 50% TP effectiveness bonus is pretty much a wash in my eyes. Either would be great for a missile boat faction.

I think that:

Caldari Battleship skill bonus:
+10% Missile Velocity per level (Torpedos, Cruise and Heavy missiles)

Minmatar Battleship skill bonus:
5% bonus to explosion velocity per level

Role bonus:
50% damage to all missiles (preferable)
or
37.5% RoF to Torpedo, Cruise and Rapid Heavy missile launchers

Slot-layout (H/M/L): 7/8/5, 6 launcher hardpoints.

^ Would make a good pirate missile-based BS.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Mascha Tzash
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2013-12-11 09:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mascha Tzash
How about Khanid & Roden having a pirate baby?

Amarr/Gallente mashup hulls with Missiles, with armor bonuses and perhaps some turret disruption?
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#37 - 2013-12-11 11:31:04 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Also based on EFT I stand by my original statement that a Loki-level range bonus to webs and a max 50% TP effectiveness bonus is pretty much a wash in my eyes. Either would be great for a missile boat faction.

I think that:

Caldari Battleship skill bonus:
+10% Missile Velocity per level (Torpedos, Cruise and Heavy missiles)

Minmatar Battleship skill bonus:
5% bonus to explosion velocity per level

Role bonus:
50% damage to all missiles (preferable)
or
37.5% RoF to Torpedo, Cruise and Rapid Heavy missile launchers

Slot-layout (H/M/L): 7/8/5, 6 launcher hardpoints.

^ Would make a good pirate missile-based BS.


Just looks like a Caldari ship. Isn't the point of pirate ship design to combine things you wouldn't otherwise see together? Really, there's nothing particularly Minmatar about your concept. If you replace the explosion velocity bonus with a TP or web range bonus it feels very Caldari/Minmatar all of the sudden.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#38 - 2013-12-11 11:32:06 UTC
Mascha Tzash wrote:
How about Khanid & Roden having a pirate baby?

Amarr/Gallente mashup hulls with Missiles, with armor bonuses and perhaps some turret disruption?


Because we already have an Amarr/Gallente faction with SOE?
zbaaca
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#39 - 2013-12-11 11:57:15 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:

I think that:

Caldari Battleship skill bonus:
+10% Missile Velocity per level (Torpedos, Cruise and Heavy missiles)

Minmatar Battleship skill bonus:
5% bonus to explosion velocity per level

Role bonus:
50% damage to all missiles (preferable)
or
37.5% RoF to Torpedo, Cruise and Rapid Heavy missile launchers

Slot-layout (H/M/L): 7/8/5, 6 launcher hardpoints.

^ Would make a good pirate missile-based BS.

why every one so freakn' scared give to missiles same ammount of effective weapons like other have ? why not make it like 10-11.67 like every pirate have?

Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

Stan Durden
Solar Forged
#40 - 2013-12-11 12:03:19 UTC
Just throwing it out there that maybe a missile boat with target painter bonus seems like a good mix. Then if you made the ship capable of armor tanking decently then you may add some variety to the game. Other than the sacrilege I can't think of an armor tanking missile boat (maybe typhoon?).

Another idea would be to give bonuses specifically for rapid launchers.