Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Except plenty of people here have already pointed out the tactic of warping to places PvE'ers would be at, like belts and anoms. They complain that local lets the PvE'er warp out before the ganker has time to check all the belts/anoms.

I don't have to read between the lines in this thread when people have been very open about their desire to remove local having the result of keeping their targets ignorant of a threat, making the targets easier to catch. This is all about making it harder for the hunted to know they are being hunted.




Sure I have an imagination. And my imagination isn't enjoying the idea of spamming d-scan, or layering a hypothetical auto-scanner window on my already cluttered screen. Watching gates doesn't sound like fun, or maintaining any sort of check-point-log structure on the gates.

And gankers most certainly affect profitability. Either they keep you in the station, where you don't make the isk to pay off your PvE ship, or they kill your PvE ship before you make enough to pay it off. These mechanics of no gain or actual loss already exist, and they already get used every day.


I'm kind of sick of people dreaming up ways of making the space I live in less livable or more of a chore to use, just to buff one very narrow play style. After all, these ideas almost always exclude highsec and lowsec from local removal. If you want to make changes to my backyard then you better get use to me giving you and earful on what the likely outcome would be.

Quite the contrary.

Ganking in nullsec is already a rather easy, low risk, and profitable activity. And I encourage everyone to give it a try.


My favorite example is Laserz Pewpew

https://zkillboard.com/character/1599070531/history/

This guy not only ganked a tons of PvE'ers, but also raided POS for moon goo, and bragged about plexing his accounts just off the loot he took from Tengus he killed. The guy knows the game inside and out, and would even come into our public help channel to explain to people how to play better. But I'll let him speak for himself;
http://themittani.com/features/lifestyles-blaptastic-laserzpewpew
http://themittani.com/features/revisiting-bounty-hunting


As for pure solo and killing just for the sport, there is Zed Mike

https://zkillboard.com/character/1612249532/history/

He hasn't been around for awhile, but he was slaughtering Drakes before Drakes got nerfed for being 'over powered'.


And an example of how low of a bar it really is to fly around nullsec causing grief, General Discussion regular Harry Forever

https://zkillboard.com/character/93239045/history/

Started with destroyers and a cloak, brand new to this whole thing. He isn't the cleverest guy we have seen, but I like him because he actually had the guts to get out there and give it a shot. And while he may not like the stuff we say to him in local, he's never shy about using local to share his latest killmail.


Check out those kill/death ratios. Check out the isk damage. Local is just a chat window that shows who is in system, and is the bare minimum in terms of intel. Not what they are flying, not where they came from, not where in system they are. Just the most basic fact that they are in the system. We already have to do the leg work to find out everything aside from what system they are in. And sometimes we have to do the leg work of flying around to see what system they moved on to. Why add more work for the sake of adding more work?

And for people who genuinely want to have fun, local is no hindrance. If it isn't broke, it doesn't need fixing. No ones game is being ruined by local, and the various schemes to have some automated d-scan or more nullsec structures to babysit doesn't make anything better for those that actually live there.


If these ideas are about dreaming up a new system for the rumored new space CCP is adding, fine. Leave nullsec out of it. Nullsec has plenty of problems that should be addressed, and local really isn't even on that list.

If you pod me and I'm not set to that system as my home, my "local" window doesn't work either. So it seems that would be a counter. A contact watchlist on the other hand has no counter. You can kill me, pod me, send me anywhere in the universe, and the contact watchlist will still provide me that information.

The point is mechanics aren't bad just because they are automatic. There are many mechanics in the game which occur automatically. Why are you picking local out as the one? And most importantly what "problem" is local causing. Beyond "i can't gank", none of you have been able to articulate a problem. You all keep saying "it's automatic!" and "it's free". That's a statement of the current system, not a statement of the problem you are trying to address. And there are literally hundreds of other things that are both free and automatic (watchlists, overview, station guest lists, for example), which you don't discuss. How can you expect people to get on board with a solution if even you are unable to accurately convey the actual problem the solution is for?

Seem to me like there is no problem, you just don't like the idea of something being automatic, so you are trying to "fix" something that isn't broken. That's an awful lot of dev time to create a system which will probably kill nullsec, just to satisfy your personal dislike of the word "automatic".

No, just no. this is YOUR view of PVE. Most PVE players don't want to add PVP to their day to make their PVE more "exciting". PVE players, shockingly enough want PVE. YOU want PVP integrated directly into your PVE. This show you are not a large scale PVE player, which are an absolute requirement for the survival of null.

What you want is to have a WH/low PVE experience, based around dodging attackers constantly but in null. It simply would not work. Efficiency (through a huge increase in effort per character and a huge decrease in the number of PVE players playing) would be reduced. Null is not free. Please take some time to actually work with high level industry in null before talking about concepts your clearly do not understand. I'd actually like to continue being able to have 4k player battles in null, and they absolutely require quantity of PVE.

This seems like a better idea, I can't think of a reasonable objection to it.

Lukas Kell et al. I respect your experience and don't doubt the validity of your concerns, it's the way you choose to express them that I take issue with. Would you please stop perceiving the contents of this thread as a directed attack against Null sec PvE (I for one am passionately disinterested in it). Whatever form it eventually takes it is apparent to me that the status quo re. Local will not persist forever.
Please suggest the changes to Local that would make your EVE better instead of just objecting to other people's suggestions

So, we agree that gankers should not have the ability to decide if someone dies, with no ability for the PvE players to react.

That said, I don't recall seeing any ideas that would actually create this environment.

I DO recall seeing ideas that result in PvE needing to do more than stare at their screen, and cycle lasers to the next rat or asteroid.

We logged into EVE in order to play with other people.
Watching local is not playing. Watching local is observing, as there is no interaction involved.
You may as well be watching the game being played by someone else.

Now, the really great part of playing against other people, is that they surprise you. You can expect to encounter something cool and clever, not so much limited to only a few possibilities, but really unknown.
Local limits that. It doesn't wait for you to ask, it doesn't respond with the intel for you to do anything, it sends the information to your screen automatically.
This means it is asking the questions for you, it is watching each gate, and inside of each POS and Outpost, with every inch of space in between.
If someone pops up anywhere, it tells you.

Sure, it won't tell you enough to know the specific location, but for many uses you don't need to know that in order to know enough to react.
You know they aren't likely to be in that Outpost. You know your POS shields won't let them inside, so that leaves a login to open space somewhere, or coming from next door through a gate.
And since they just changed session, that means they are probably active.

The only way you could play any less, is if your ship had a check box to warp automatically if a non blue/green became listed. For a lot of players, they are just duplicating this function manually already.

For a real PvE player, and not just a PvPer resentfully grinding from need, this can be a disappointing substitute for play. Let them auto-grind somewhere else, and AFK put in the time so they can PvP live. They don't WANT to PvE in the first place...

That is my opinion, and it fits the information presented here pretty darn well too.

I am not claiming I do. I am not trying to speak for all of them.

You have to remember that you do not speak for the majority either, so bringing this up is a meaningless detail.

And noone is trying to create an environment where a PvE player is unable to know ANYTHING.
But automatic play is a contradiction in terms, so they should need to at least ask, or activate something to repeat the question.
They SHOULD need to interact.

Nothing is being forced.

You keep throwing up this straw man, by implying that PvE player are UNABLE to click buttons, or toggle on a function.
I don't care if most PvE players like myself are suddenly able to better avoid threats, by trivial efforts such as this.
I DO care that we are interacting in order to earn this benefit.

Nobody will be forced to do anything, but players will have more chances to interact and define a personal standard for their own play.


Every time you play a game, you try to do things correctly, or better than the player you are opposing.

If the game does it for you, you are not playing.

I want to play, turn on my own sensors. Maybe most can do the same thing, but if noone can screw up, then noone can do it right more often either.

If you don't play, you can't win.

If you don't care about winning, why are you even playing?

Again with the "let just call everything a straw man since that's the FOTM response".
And it's simple. I've explained it 1000 times. I'm NOT saying a PVE player is unable to click a button. I'm saying that if they need to click a button, but receive perfect intel, then there is NO GAMEPLAY BENEFIT to the change. But if they can't receive perfect intel, clicking a button or not, they are FORCED TO DIE mechanically.
So far nobody has given a good reason for what problem is trying to be solved, and every mechanic either falls on the "why bother" side or the "this kills PVE" side, simply because there is no point in making a change. Nooone can articulate a problem because there isn't one. There's just a handful of people sad about the word "automatic" but only in a single instance of that word.

LOCAL DOES NOT DO IT FOR YOU!
Are you simply not reading this or are you legitimately unable to comprehend that.

The only reason a lot of people survive is because a lot of people have mastered their play style around the mechanic. If you replace it with ANYTHING, people will be able to master that too. Why have you got such a ******* stick up your ass about how many buttons need to be clicked for that mechanic to exist?

If it added any gameplay benefit AT ALL I'd be on board, but it doesn't, it's more effort for the sake of it.

Seriously though, PVE is PVE mate. Stop trying to force people to have to PVP just because that's what you want. Just go play in wormholes or something.