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Replacing Local

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Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2013-12-27 21:38:45 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
As Shepard pointed out above, there are a number of differences that make wormholes a different case.
One important one though I feel he missed is tat wormholes are dead. Wormholes get a fraction of the PVE of null. If you look at the stats for 2013 for example, wormholes had less npc kills than lowsec.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2013

And as for mining, not many people mine to scale in wormholes, since you either have to ship the ore out or put up with a POS refinery which has a huge amount of waste, making ore considerably less valuable. Then finding the few people to kill is hard too, since you can;t tell in advance where wormholes are linking or what to expect, while in null you can simply pull up the map, set it to "average pilots in space" or "pirate ships destroyed in last 24 hours", or the development indices, and pick a glowing system to head towards. So I would think that lack of targets is a massive contributor to a lack of roaming gangs, and not an issue that they would encounter in null.


I've heard of a few wormhole groups that actually go to the trouble of getting a Rorqual in to compress ore, but for the most part "wormhole mining" is just gas cloud harvesting.


But the elephant in the room is how dead wormholes are for offering what so many claim they want. Nullsec or better quality income. No Sov war. No capital blobs or titan bridges. No local for true stealth, but with trade offs to keep it from being over powered.

And it is very accessible. You can probe down wormholes from highsec. Core probes take very little training, can be fit to most ships, and are already considered a basic tool for the newest of newbies. Wormholes are everywhere, and there is nothing stopping any one who is interested from jumping in and messing with them.

But the realities are, they have very low rates of occupation, and the lowest rates for PvP. Most wormholers wait for wormholes to nullsec and go do PvP there when they are in the mood.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#182 - 2013-12-27 21:43:58 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Does any one want to go back to launching every probe individually, and arranging them by hand, simply to make people work for the sake of extra work? Was that "Fun"?

Launching probes individually is a different aspect. You still are launching them, you simply have a macro helping you now.
If someone blows up your ship, those probes stop helping you.
How do we stop local... ahhh ha!
We cannot since it is not in the game in a vulnerable form, the way a ship with probes is. For that reason, they do not compare quite so well.

Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
So if your solutions involves no extra effort for the amount of intel currently received, why change it at all?
And what is the problem that you are trying to solve?


I'd really like to see some solid answers for this.

My feeling is people want to get easy kills. Because most other reasons I've seen so far is that people don't think the game has enough clicking or chores, which is just bad game play.


Then I will restate them here.

The majority of kills fitting the context of this were indeed human error related, and the type often associated with negligent play.
(Bob walked away from his PC entirely, letting the dog in, etc)


The simpler mistakes, (which could be more common), would be failing to activate shield hardeners, not fitting an AB or MWD, possibly forgetting a flight of ECM drones.

These mistakes tend to be pushed aside if the player is warned by an automatic listing of potential threats. They usually never need to worry about defending themselves, so the fitting mistakes alone get glossed over frequently.

There are many levels of human error. Local covers a good enough portion of them to be considered as dumbing down the game.

As a PvE player, I want to do more than just compare m3 of ore or how many rats I popped. I want to have null PvE be recognized as being more challenging than high sec PvE.

And, just in case it comes up:
Because claiming sov justifies it!
Almost... sov gives the right to anchor POS's, and the occasional outpost. That moon mineral and goo return is the reward for sov grinding, with strategic placement in the POS and Outpost locations to help secure it.
And no, once the sov grind is complete, and the system is upgraded, the PvE is pretty much gravy at that point. The existence of renters farming the ore fields and rats like migrant laborers pretty much define PvE as not being normally threatened by anything less than a blob.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#183 - 2013-12-27 21:53:31 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Launching probes individually is a different aspect. You still are launching them, you simply have a macro helping you now.
If someone blows up your ship, those probes stop helping you.
How do we stop local... ahhh ha!
We cannot since it is not in the game in a vulnerable form, the way a ship with probes is. For that reason, they do not compare quite so well.
Sure you can. Pod the player, and unless they are set to the same system as their home, their local no longer shows that system. Works in exactly the same way as you describe shooting a probing ship.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
Then I will restate them here.

The majority of kills fitting the context of this were indeed human error related, and the type often associated with negligent play.
(Bob walked away from his PC entirely, letting the dog in, etc)


The simpler mistakes, (which could be more common), would be failing to activate shield hardeners, not fitting an AB or MWD, possibly forgetting a flight of ECM drones.

These mistakes tend to be pushed aside if the player is warned by an automatic listing of potential threats. They usually never need to worry about defending themselves, so the fitting mistakes alone get glossed over frequently.

There are many levels of human error. Local covers a good enough portion of them to be considered as dumbing down the game.

As a PvE player, I want to do more than just compare m3 of ore or how many rats I popped. I want to have null PvE be recognized as being more challenging than high sec PvE.

And, just in case it comes up:
Because claiming sov justifies it!
Almost... sov gives the right to anchor POS's, and the occasional outpost. That moon mineral and goo return is the reward for sov grinding, with strategic placement in the POS and Outpost locations to help secure it.
And no, once the sov grind is complete, and the system is upgraded, the PvE is pretty much gravy at that point. The existence of renters farming the ore fields and rats like migrant laborers pretty much define PvE as not being normally threatened by anything less than a blob.
Human error already exists with local, in exactly the same way as any other system which gives perfect intel will.

And sov only doesn't provide intel because at the moment there is no intel to provide. Who are you to say that owning sov shouldn't provide that automatically? You realise that you don't just claim sov, and that's it right? It's an ongoing bill and ongoing maintenance, as well as you needing to keep people in ships to defend it. The PVE helps do that. Kill that PVE, you kill the sov.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#184 - 2013-12-27 21:57:11 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
As Shepard pointed out above, there are a number of differences that make wormholes a different case.
One important one though I feel he missed is tat wormholes are dead. Wormholes get a fraction of the PVE of null. If you look at the stats for 2013 for example, wormholes had less npc kills than lowsec.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2013

And as for mining, not many people mine to scale in wormholes, since you either have to ship the ore out or put up with a POS refinery which has a huge amount of waste, making ore considerably less valuable. Then finding the few people to kill is hard too, since you can;t tell in advance where wormholes are linking or what to expect, while in null you can simply pull up the map, set it to "average pilots in space" or "pirate ships destroyed in last 24 hours", or the development indices, and pick a glowing system to head towards. So I would think that lack of targets is a massive contributor to a lack of roaming gangs, and not an issue that they would encounter in null.


I've heard of a few wormhole groups that actually go to the trouble of getting a Rorqual in to compress ore, but for the most part "wormhole mining" is just gas cloud harvesting.


But the elephant in the room is how dead wormholes are for offering what so many claim they want. Nullsec or better quality income. No Sov war. No capital blobs or titan bridges. No local for true stealth, but with trade offs to keep it from being over powered.

And it is very accessible. You can probe down wormholes from highsec. Core probes take very little training, can be fit to most ships, and are already considered a basic tool for the newest of newbies. Wormholes are everywhere, and there is nothing stopping any one who is interested from jumping in and messing with them.

But the realities are, they have very low rates of occupation, and the lowest rates for PvP. Most wormholers wait for wormholes to nullsec and go do PvP there when they are in the mood.

The problem with wormholes, is that they are logistically inconvenient.

The absence of local is not the defining reason they are not more populated, but the fact there are no outposts, or other support structures.
It is, in fact, the same reason that NPC space is more diversely populated than guarded sov space. NPC space has friendlier logistical support for the players in general.
By contrast, hostile sov space is much like a wormhole, you can't dock, all the POS's will shoot at you, and the other residents think you are there for their target practice.
Is it any wonder why those in hostile sov space have so many similar habits to WH dwellers?

Besides Local, how else is Null different from a WH:

Live and stable gate connections to other sections of space, and between internal systems.
Outposts, NPC and player built both. This includes the sub category of med clones and jump clones as an additional difference.
The Market. Present in all it's glory, even if only stocked by player activity and some minor NPC items.
Cyno capability, both covert and regular.


Want a real test?
Put delayed local into a system that is NPC space otherwise.

Don't allow sov to be claimed.
Watch them show up in droves...

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Silent Rambo
Orion Positronics
#185 - 2013-12-27 22:04:19 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

As to removing local, I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting removing it entirely, and leaving nothing to take it's place.
Despite the example of wormholes, many players consider this to be an impossible change for null, and I tend to agree with this.


Well automatically being able to see all the pilots in a system is a little much. I still love the active and passive scanning idea as a replacement for what we have now, or even a little more. Maybe the passive scanning could give the number of pilots in the system at any range, and then maybe combine that with the d-scanner for passive scans at smaller ranges for more information? I don't think this would fix the afk cloaking problem though, since its a base problem with knowing if there are people in the system with you or not.

You really think someone would do that? Just log into EvE and tell lies?
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#186 - 2013-12-27 22:10:20 UTC
Nikk, you can get this sort of excitement you want right now in w-space

And nothing is stopping you from going into w-space right now, unless you failed to train Astrometrics for some reason. I would bet real world money there is a wormhole within 5 jumps of where ever you are at. No local, harder rats, bigger rewards, all that exist right now without any need to change nullsec.

Your only real problem is you want to play like it is w-space outside of w-space.


Nikk Narrel wrote:

And, just in case it comes up:
Because claiming sov justifies it!
Almost... sov gives the right to anchor POS's, and the occasional outpost. That moon mineral and goo return is the reward for sov grinding, with strategic placement in the POS and Outpost locations to help secure it.
And no, once the sov grind is complete, and the system is upgraded, the PvE is pretty much gravy at that point. The existence of renters farming the ore fields and rats like migrant laborers pretty much define PvE as not being normally threatened by anything less than a blob.


And there is a huge amount of misinformation on how sov null works in this thread. The only part of this quote that is true is that you need sov to drop an outpost. POS can be dropped by any one on any open moon. PvE in nullsec is easily threatened by solo bombers and small gangs. I already linked a few examples earlier of just th emost notable gankers around where I live. Pretty much every nullsec region also has some small alliance that bases out of NPC null, and raids neighboring sov null everyday.

And for those that don't know, because some seemed to be implied earlier, covert cynos still work even if a cyno jammer is set up. And all nullsec anoms now have tackle frigates to trip up idiots still ratting in carriers.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#187 - 2013-12-27 22:10:31 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sure you can. Pod the player, and unless they are set to the same system as their home, their local no longer shows that system. Works in exactly the same way as you describe shooting a probing ship.

That works so amazingly well... right up until it doesn't.
Local is more reliable than probes, and has far less skill requirements to use.
Good luck using probes from inside that outpost, too.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Human error already exists with local, in exactly the same way as any other system which gives perfect intel will.

And sov only doesn't provide intel because at the moment there is no intel to provide.
1. Who are you to say that owning sov shouldn't provide that automatically? You realise that you don't just claim sov, and that's it right? It's an ongoing bill and ongoing maintenance, as well as you needing to keep people in ships to defend it.
2. The PVE helps do that. Kill that PVE, you kill the sov.

1. Because it is provided regardless of sov ownership.
You want denial of content? Local is the leading cause of stalemates you like blaming on cloaked ships, who have every right to be present in those systems. Most unplanned encounters are the result of uncertainty by one or more parties. If both sides knew exactly what they faced, the results would often also be as obvious, and one side would stay home.
Just like how the PvE ships know to stay docked... because local forgot to say "spoiler alert!"

2. Except, as you point out often, you are unwilling to sit in ships defending the PvE. You are keeping people in ships to defend the outposts and POS's, because they can't run and hide like the PvE ships do.

Noone is suggesting intel be removed.
People are suggesting vulnerabilities, either human error, or actual objects which can be taken out like a street lamp leaving the neighborhood in the dark.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#188 - 2013-12-27 22:14:37 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Nikk, you can get this sort of excitement you want right now in w-space

And nothing is stopping you from going into w-space right now, unless you failed to train Astrometrics for some reason. I would bet real world money there is a wormhole within 5 jumps of where ever you are at. No local, harder rats, bigger rewards, all that exist right now without any need to change nullsec.

Your only real problem is you want to play like it is w-space outside of w-space.

Been there, done that.

Ya know what killed it for me?
I was just fine with delayed local, but I missed:

Live and stable gate connections to other sections of space, and between internal systems.
Outposts, NPC and player built both. This includes the sub category of med clones and jump clones as an additional difference.
The Market. Present in all it's glory, even if only stocked by player activity and some minor NPC items.
Cyno capability, both covert and regular.

Frankly, I don't care if WH did have local, I am not living without my outposts to kick back in.
Just not gonna happen.

Players go where they can dock, it's just that simple.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2013-12-27 22:24:25 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Nikk, you can get this sort of excitement you want right now in w-space

And nothing is stopping you from going into w-space right now, unless you failed to train Astrometrics for some reason. I would bet real world money there is a wormhole within 5 jumps of where ever you are at. No local, harder rats, bigger rewards, all that exist right now without any need to change nullsec.

Your only real problem is you want to play like it is w-space outside of w-space.

Been there, done that.

Ya know what killed it for me?
I was just fine with delayed local, but I missed:

Live and stable gate connections to other sections of space, and between internal systems.
Outposts, NPC and player built both. This includes the sub category of med clones and jump clones as an additional difference.
The Market. Present in all it's glory, even if only stocked by player activity and some minor NPC items.
Cyno capability, both covert and regular.

Frankly, I don't care if WH did have local, I am not living without my outposts to kick back in.
Just not gonna happen.

Players go where they can dock, it's just that simple.



So you want dangerous wilderness, and the big city life all rolled into one?

I'm not sure what to say to this, other than you are just being silly, or a troll, or both.

You do realize you can just day-trip into w-space from k-space? Find a wormhole, go in, do your PvE, go back to your k-space with an outpost and buy/sell/whatever.

For people who think the game needs more effort, this sure sounds lazy. Probing down wormholes is fairly easy, but you just want to undock right into w-space but light cynos as you please.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#190 - 2013-12-28 00:32:13 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
1. Because it is provided regardless of sov ownership.
You want denial of content? Local is the leading cause of stalemates you like blaming on cloaked ships, who have every right to be present in those systems. Most unplanned encounters are the result of uncertainty by one or more parties. If both sides knew exactly what they faced, the results would often also be as obvious, and one side would stay home.
Just like how the PvE ships know to stay docked... because local forgot to say "spoiler alert!"
OK, so if it's granted regardless of sov, leave it that way and maintain the balance between attacker and defender.
And I'd much rather have the little stalemate of a AFK cloakers than killing null PVE altogether just because you don;t like the word "automatic" in a single instance.
An unplanned encounter with a PVE player will always be avoided by a PVE player. Regardless of what system they put in place. The unplanned encounters of two people happening to pass through a common system though, those will no longer occur without local. Essentially if one party isnt looking specifically for the other, people won;t just find each other by chance, expecially if people are travelling cloaked, which they would.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
2. Except, as you point out often, you are unwilling to sit in ships defending the PvE. You are keeping people in ships to defend the outposts and POS's, because they can't run and hide like the PvE ships do.

Noone is suggesting intel be removed.
People are suggesting vulnerabilities, either human error, or actual objects which can be taken out like a street lamp leaving the neighborhood in the dark.
Because sitting in a ship to defend PVE players is 1. Not rewarding and 2. Boring as sin. How can you seriously suggest a gameplay mechanic for a player that requires them to sit and watch somebody PVE, only actually getting any action if someone shows up. That's utterly ridiculous.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#191 - 2013-12-28 02:48:59 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Players go where they can dock, it's just that simple.



So you want dangerous wilderness, and the big city life all rolled into one?

I'm not sure what to say to this, other than you are just being silly, or a troll, or both.

You do realize you can just day-trip into w-space from k-space? Find a wormhole, go in, do your PvE, go back to your k-space with an outpost and buy/sell/whatever.

For people who think the game needs more effort, this sure sounds lazy. Probing down wormholes is fairly easy, but you just want to undock right into w-space but light cynos as you please.

You are confused, with the assumptions needed to draw this conclusion.

I like the convenience of outposts. Many players consider these stations as homes, and they are not willing to invest more travel time than is convenient either.
When real life dictates limits,many players like myself find it practical to be able to get out of the game ASAP.
Hostile sov space and WH's are simply too inconvenient because of the travel demands.
Game players that want week long levels of commitment, that can work fine for WH's.

That doesn't fit my play style.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#192 - 2013-12-28 03:02:38 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
OK, so if it's granted regardless of sov, leave it that way and maintain the balance between attacker and defender.
And I'd much rather have the little stalemate of a AFK cloakers than killing null PVE altogether just because you don;t like the word "automatic" in a single instance.
An unplanned encounter with a PVE player will always be avoided by a PVE player. Regardless of what system they put in place. The unplanned encounters of two people happening to pass through a common system though, those will no longer occur without local. Essentially if one party isnt looking specifically for the other, people won;t just find each other by chance, expecially if people are travelling cloaked, which they would.


You consistently make assumptions which are in conflict with the very ideas you argue against.

If players don't have local, then they have the balance aspect to scan for cloaked ships.
Now, if both players are trying to be evasive, they were never going to hunt each other in the first place. Having local display a name doesn't suddenly make you a hunter, if you weren't already looking for prey.

If one is hunting, then without local, they can suddenly do something they never could before... hunt the cloaked player.
And it is not a leap to think they would proactively hunt every system they passed through, if they were previously willing to attempt an ambush just because a name was in local that MIGHT have been a target.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#193 - 2013-12-28 03:03:15 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Players go where they can dock, it's just that simple.



So you want dangerous wilderness, and the big city life all rolled into one?

I'm not sure what to say to this, other than you are just being silly, or a troll, or both.

You do realize you can just day-trip into w-space from k-space? Find a wormhole, go in, do your PvE, go back to your k-space with an outpost and buy/sell/whatever.

For people who think the game needs more effort, this sure sounds lazy. Probing down wormholes is fairly easy, but you just want to undock right into w-space but light cynos as you please.

You are confused, with the assumptions needed to draw this conclusion.

I like the convenience of outposts. Many players consider these stations as homes, and they are not willing to invest more travel time than is convenient either.
When real life dictates limits,many players like myself find it practical to be able to get out of the game ASAP.
Hostile sov space and WH's are simply too inconvenient because of the travel demands.
Game players that want week long levels of commitment, that can work fine for WH's.

That doesn't fit my play style.
So while your playstyle is possible with the current game mechanics, and would require no more than a few jumps to frequent, you feel instead the current playerbase that enjoys null PVE should be stripped of their ability to enjoy that playstyle the way they like it so you can have what you want without having to travel.

Entitlement much?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#194 - 2013-12-28 03:08:46 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Clansworth wrote:
Because my proposal does not give you EVERYTHING local does (I said most). It is good that it gives you only partial information (who, not what or where)... but that is the wrong partial information to get first. The first bit of information, that which is easiest to obtain, is the what. "There's a large craft within sensor range" should be known before "There's an enemy in the system". further detail would depend on systems in place and the actual visibility (signature) of said ship - and more importantly, how many friends you've got with eyes.

The problem with local isn't that it gives instant intel, it's that it gives the most important intel instantly - friend or foe should not be so readily known. Local also doesn't give the home-field advantage that common sense would dictate. The group who has taken the time to set up the system for operations would have probes stationed at the gates and key locations. Would potentially have a system scanning array at a POS to aid in locating contacts - those are rewards for properly setting up your worksite.

That said, my system also would allow miniscule/cloaky ships to traverse almost completely undetected - which common sense ALSO dictates. Due to the tiny sig radius, and especially the upper info limit the cloak sets, you're looking at a LOT of potential surprises - also very good.
Well, all a PVE player really cares to know is when someone's entered the system. Even friend and foe is not really that important at first. If your system was put in place, you'd still have the same group of people crying that all the free intel must GO! This is because he majority of people calling for it want a single thing: To gank PVE players.

So any mechanic that still provides that will leave PVE players still doing exactly what they do now, and the gankers collapsing into heaps on the forums crying "I can't kill unarmed people quickly enough in my cloaky nullified T3!".

And if the mechanic can just involve launching a couple of probes and getting to what we have now, or better, then there would be no real point in making the change. It would just be extra clicks added for no real gameplay benefit, and a whole bunch of dev time wasted that could have been spent on improvements to the game.

As for the "good surprises". If a cloaky could appear on grid with a PVE player with no prior warning, that's not good, that's choosing to kill PVE players with a mechanic, affording them no ability to react. That in itself would kill null PVE within minutes. I don;t even like ganking, yet even I'd slap a couple of alts in cloaky ships and start harassing enemies just because it would be so easy, cheap and risk free to do.


My mechanic still allowed low sig/cloaked ships to enter a system undetected. This comes back to a basic eve trade-off - do i fit for stealth, or fit for gank. However, at some point they may still be detected prior to getting on grid - it's a matter of sensor strength vs. signature radius. A lone covert ops is unlikely to out gank a null-sec PVE tank alone - so then it comes down to another traditional eve tradeoff. Bring friends or die! The PVE player with friends would have eyes on the target much sooner. The cloaky ganker with friends would get more hurt on the target while still maintaining surprise.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#195 - 2013-12-28 03:10:40 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
OK, so if it's granted regardless of sov, leave it that way and maintain the balance between attacker and defender.
And I'd much rather have the little stalemate of a AFK cloakers than killing null PVE altogether just because you don;t like the word "automatic" in a single instance.
An unplanned encounter with a PVE player will always be avoided by a PVE player. Regardless of what system they put in place. The unplanned encounters of two people happening to pass through a common system though, those will no longer occur without local. Essentially if one party isnt looking specifically for the other, people won;t just find each other by chance, expecially if people are travelling cloaked, which they would.


You consistently make assumptions which are in conflict with the very ideas you argue against.

If players don't have local, then they have the balance aspect to scan for cloaked ships.
Now, if both players are trying to be evasive, they were never going to hunt each other in the first place. Having local display a name doesn't suddenly make you a hunter, if you weren't already looking for prey.

If one is hunting, then without local, they can suddenly do something they never could before... hunt the cloaked player.
And it is not a leap to think they would proactively hunt every system they passed through, if they were previously willing to attempt an ambush just because a name was in local that MIGHT have been a target.
So two guys who are travelling, who right now might fight, may never even see each other under many of the proposed local mechanics, thus PVP that may have just happened out of the blue may not happen. Believe it or not, many people travel in PVP capable ships without actually hunting for PVP, but engage in PVP should they see a target.

This is not in conflict with anything, it's a completely separate thought just placed for additional consideration. Again, please stop trying to place false interpretations of my words with your severe lack of understanding.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#196 - 2013-12-28 03:13:54 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I like the convenience of outposts. Many players consider these stations as homes, and they are not willing to invest more travel time than is convenient either.
When real life dictates limits,many players like myself find it practical to be able to get out of the game ASAP.
Hostile sov space and WH's are simply too inconvenient because of the travel demands.
Game players that want week long levels of commitment, that can work fine for WH's.

That doesn't fit my play style.

So while your playstyle is possible with the current game mechanics, and would require no more than a few jumps to frequent, you feel instead the current playerbase that enjoys null PVE should be stripped of their ability to enjoy that playstyle the way they like it so you can have what you want without having to travel.

Entitlement much?

Gee Lucas, I point out why I don't like wormholes, and suddenly you think this is the key to stopping players from wanting to change local?
Ad hominem noted. Those wanting change must be possessed by an overly entitled mentality.

Wormholes don't have outposts. They are beyond consideration by myself and many other players for that reason.

Many players want an outpost, to work out of. They must all be entitled and lazy too then, if they aren't willing to take a variable route to a random location.

Please focus on the topic. Replacing local.

Not simply discrediting anyone who wants to change something.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#197 - 2013-12-28 03:15:25 UTC
Clansworth wrote:
My mechanic still allowed low sig/cloaked ships to enter a system undetected. This comes back to a basic eve trade-off - do i fit for stealth, or fit for gank. However, at some point they may still be detected prior to getting on grid - it's a matter of sensor strength vs. signature radius. A lone covert ops is unlikely to out gank a null-sec PVE tank alone - so then it comes down to another traditional eve tradeoff. Bring friends or die! The PVE player with friends would have eyes on the target much sooner. The cloaky ganker with friends would get more hurt on the target while still maintaining surprise.
A cloaky T3 could rip nearly any PVE fit to pieces in a very short time. Giving cloakers the ability to intercept using cloaking to get on grid undetected firstly means PVE players are forced to die at the whim of a cloaker, and secondly that interceptors are made redundant for intercepting.
If the gankers just woke up and started using interceptors, like they are supposed to rather than using cloaking ships because they want to be super risk free, they'd realise that they can already gank effectively.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#198 - 2013-12-28 03:18:55 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
You consistently make assumptions which are in conflict with the very ideas you argue against.

If players don't have local, then they have the balance aspect to scan for cloaked ships.
Now, if both players are trying to be evasive, they were never going to hunt each other in the first place. Having local display a name doesn't suddenly make you a hunter, if you weren't already looking for prey.

If one is hunting, then without local, they can suddenly do something they never could before... hunt the cloaked player.
And it is not a leap to think they would proactively hunt every system they passed through, if they were previously willing to attempt an ambush just because a name was in local that MIGHT have been a target.

So two guys who are travelling, who right now might fight, may never even see each other under many of the proposed local mechanics, thus PVP that may have just happened out of the blue may not happen. Believe it or not, many people travel in PVP capable ships without actually hunting for PVP, but engage in PVP should they see a target.

This is not in conflict with anything, it's a completely separate thought just placed for additional consideration. Again, please stop trying to place false interpretations of my words with your severe lack of understanding.

If one is hunting, then without local, they can suddenly do something they never could before... hunt the cloaked player.
And it is not a leap to think they would proactively hunt every system they passed through, if they were previously willing to attempt an ambush just because a name was in local that MIGHT have been a target.

They are either hunting or not. Without local, hunting means using sensors. The other guy may not realize he is being hunted, and end up being surprised.
With less warning, you might actually have more PvP...

Twisted

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#199 - 2013-12-28 03:25:26 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I like the convenience of outposts. Many players consider these stations as homes, and they are not willing to invest more travel time than is convenient either.
When real life dictates limits,many players like myself find it practical to be able to get out of the game ASAP.
Hostile sov space and WH's are simply too inconvenient because of the travel demands.
Game players that want week long levels of commitment, that can work fine for WH's.

That doesn't fit my play style.

So while your playstyle is possible with the current game mechanics, and would require no more than a few jumps to frequent, you feel instead the current playerbase that enjoys null PVE should be stripped of their ability to enjoy that playstyle the way they like it so you can have what you want without having to travel.

Entitlement much?
Gee Lucas, I point out why I don't like wormholes, and suddenly you think this is the key to stopping players from wanting to change local?
Ad hominem noted. Those wanting change must be possessed by an overly entitled mentality.

Wormholes don't have outposts. They are beyond consideration by myself and many other players for that reason.

Many players want an outpost, to work out of. They must all be entitled and lazy too then, if they aren't willing to take a variable route to a random location.

Please focus on the topic. Replacing local.

Not simply discrediting anyone who wants to change something.
Uh, no. We point out that you can get what you want, and you essentially say that it's too much effort, so you want null to be changed to fit your playstyle so you don't have to put in that effort.

And yes, many players want an outpost, so they work from an outpost. Some want to have an outpost and run WH sites, so they do exactly that (there's even a sov module to increase the WH spawn rate). You want the outpost, and the wormhole mechanics all in the same system so you don't have to travel, and you don't care if other people have to entirely lose their chosen playstyle to do it.

If that's not entitlement, I don't know what is.

And on topic: Don't replace local, it's fine as it is.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tryaz
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2013-12-28 03:38:29 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
The only reason a lot of people survive is because a lot of people have mastered their play style around the mechanic.
Sorry but where is the mastery in staying aligned or docking up as soon as anyone unknown enters Local? Furthermore by simply docking you are not avoiding anything, you are in fact just opting out - not playing the game - and refusing interaction.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Seriously though, PVE is PVE mate. Stop trying to force people to have to PVP just because that's what you want. Just go play in wormholes or something.
The only forcing that any of these changes have so far implied is interaction with other players. EVE is unique in being a single server MMO, this makes interaction (forced or voluntary) perhaps its greatest single aspect. There should not exist a tool which encourages the stupid or fearful to avoid interaction. No risk/reward calculation goes in to the decision to dock up because there is no potential risk or reward.

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden