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Are the days of Local really numbered?

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#381 - 2013-12-09 22:42:28 UTC
Why do we want people doing anoms and sigs in nullsec?
They're clearly only intended as christmas decorations as we fly through space. Red and green, weeeee

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#382 - 2013-12-09 22:53:28 UTC
Nullsec carebears rat in absolute safety. Except for those that died, they weren't safe. But all the others are safe. Until they die.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#383 - 2013-12-09 22:54:47 UTC
Clearly ratters dying is the real issue here.

Actually, Local needs to be buffed and show people before they even enter system!

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#384 - 2013-12-09 22:55:11 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Without local, nobody would be able to earn enough in null to make being there worthwhile and in case you've forgotten, null is where the base of the T2 production pyramid is.

This is an assumption, that I refuse to support without logical reasoning or valid evidence.

In the many debates I have seen on this topic, not one bit of convincing foundational evidence has been provided, or logic that was soundly beyond convenience of the moment.

I get that players are used to local, and they are sometimes fearful of change.
I believe this is why local has persisted in this form for this long, CCP is being VERY careful how they do this.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#385 - 2013-12-09 22:56:44 UTC
Quote:
The fact that kills happen regularly tells me it's working as intended. The fact that people can function in null, mining and so on, tells me it's working as intended. If anything's unbalanced, it's AFK cloaking but that's a different threadnaught. Without local, nobody would be able to earn enough in null to make being there worthwhile and in case you've forgotten, null is where the base of the T2 production pyramid is.


With respect, the wheels of t2 production don't care very much about afk cloakers bothering ratters. I also don't buy the argument that every-day ratting and PVE would cease without local.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#386 - 2013-12-09 23:03:00 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Without local, nobody would be able to earn enough in null to make being there worthwhile and in case you've forgotten, null is where the base of the T2 production pyramid is.

This is an assumption, that I refuse to support without logical reasoning or valid evidence.

In the many debates I have seen on this topic, not one bit of convincing foundational evidence has been provided, or logic that was soundly beyond convenience of the moment.

I get that players are used to local, and they are sometimes fearful of change.
I believe this is why local has persisted in this form for this long, CCP is being VERY careful how they do this.


Dude - resistance profiles and AutoCannon Enyos.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
John XIII
The Carnifex Corp
#387 - 2013-12-09 23:03:59 UTC
Instant local just seems out of place in empty, unclaimed player null sec. We're supposed to building, maintaining, and fighting for our own empires out there. If you want instant local, or some version of it, plug something into your ihub that enables it. Make it an option that the sov-holder has. An option that cuts both ways of course.

This could lead to interesting game play.

I do find watching reds pour into a system during a "local spike" warning very exciting but wouldn't a surprise buttsexx scream of "FotM blob ships on short scan" just about be the best?

As far as ratters, I couldn't care less. Sometimes, I honestly can't tell the difference between a null sec ratter and a high sec miner. Isk/hr I guess.





Between Ignorance and Wisdom
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#388 - 2013-12-09 23:04:01 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Without local, nobody would be able to earn enough in null to make being there worthwhile and in case you've forgotten, null is where the base of the T2 production pyramid is.

This is an assumption, that I refuse to support without logical reasoning or valid evidence.

I'd suggest you start with the alphabet, then words, then sentences so you can learn how to read before you can recognize tough things like "logical reasoning", of which there was plenty.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#389 - 2013-12-09 23:08:03 UTC
"I don't buy the argument that people will stop trying for reduced returns at significantly greater effort and greater risk. All EVE players are dispassionate bots anyway, it's not like psychology and common sense applies.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#390 - 2013-12-09 23:11:16 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Without local, nobody would be able to earn enough in null to make being there worthwhile and in case you've forgotten, null is where the base of the T2 production pyramid is.

This is an assumption, that I refuse to support without logical reasoning or valid evidence.

I'd suggest you start with the alphabet, then words, then sentences so you can learn how to read before you can recognize tough things like "logical reasoning", of which there was plenty.

If that is the best answer you have, then I won't expect better from you.

Your call.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#391 - 2013-12-09 23:16:25 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Without local, nobody would be able to earn enough in null to make being there worthwhile and in case you've forgotten, null is where the base of the T2 production pyramid is.

This is an assumption, that I refuse to support without logical reasoning or valid evidence.

In the many debates I have seen on this topic, not one bit of convincing foundational evidence has been provided, or logic that was soundly beyond convenience of the moment.

I get that players are used to local, and they are sometimes fearful of change.
I believe this is why local has persisted in this form for this long, CCP is being VERY careful how they do this.
If there were no local, and no replacement, which is what... I forgotten their name, and cba to look is suggesting then ratting would become an extreme sport in local. That's pretty much what's been spoken about for the past billion pages or so since the troll started up.
I should hope even you could see why that would be the case.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#392 - 2013-12-09 23:38:53 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Without local, nobody would be able to earn enough in null to make being there worthwhile and in case you've forgotten, null is where the base of the T2 production pyramid is.

This is an assumption, that I refuse to support without logical reasoning or valid evidence.

I'd suggest you start with the alphabet, then words, then sentences so you can learn how to read before you can recognize tough things like "logical reasoning", of which there was plenty.

If that is the best answer you have, then I won't expect better from you.

Your call.

This is basically the equivalent of giving me a red button that gives me some isk when I press it along with a chance of blowing up my expensive ship, and a green button that gives me the same or more isk without that chance, and telling me I'm stupid for pressing the green button.
You're literally asking me to make a bad choice for the sake of... what?
The fact that you don't find this to be a convincing argument is a testament to your dishonesty.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#393 - 2013-12-09 23:40:58 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
I don't even know how I can dumb this down for you even further. The fact that you think greater risk for less reward is something I should want when I'm trying to make money in the game is incredibly perplexing to me. It's like you're TRYING to be stupid. You're grasping at straws to find something, anything you can stick me with, even if it's a lie.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#394 - 2013-12-10 00:15:59 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Clearly ratters dying is the real issue here.

Actually, Local needs to be buffed and show people before they even enter system!


No the question is - what constitutes a reasonable reaction time to produce a successful evasion by a ratter - bearing in mind that is likely to be tested once a month in a wormhole, and more like once an hour in nullsec if "delayed local" was the solution to "local".

If I was able to get a cloaker in system that a ratter couldn't know about, it would be in his anoms studying his warp in position, and engagement would occur in the first anom where his warp in coincided with my preferred positioning, and I'd probably have my decloak delay done before he stopped being invulnerable, and before he even started aligning after the warp.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#395 - 2013-12-10 00:19:31 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Clearly ratters dying is the real issue here.

Actually, Local needs to be buffed and show people before they even enter system!


No the question is - what constitutes a reasonable reaction time to produce a successful evasion by a ratter - bearing in mind that is likely to be tested once a month in a wormhole, and more like once an hour in nullsec if "delayed local" was the solution to "local".

If I was able to get a cloaker in system that a ratter couldn't know about, it would be in his anoms studying his warp in position, and engagement would occur in the first anom where his warp in coincided with my preferred positioning, and I'd probably have my decloak delay done before he stopped being invulnerable, and before he even started aligning after the warp.

Haha I didn't even think about that. But you're right. Anybody using this technique is guaranteed to catch a ratter, and there's nothing they can do about it. Again, there's really just no point in trying.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#396 - 2013-12-10 00:50:54 UTC
Local isn't going anywhere, because at the end of the day, local is one of EVE Online's nessacary evils (like for instance, Gates, which reduce the vastness of space to small areas where people can force fights). It has to work this way because it it doesn't, few and fewer players will do things in dangerous places.

Wormholes prove this, in terms of population it's the least visited/populated are of the game despite the fact that it's a LOT hared for the "big established alliances" to exert influence over (kinda shoots a whole in that whole theory of null sec being screwedup because of the big allainces.....). Wormhoels are geat, but in order to get "no local" to work all kinds of hoops had to be jumped through, like no gates and no cynos.

Without local in K space, it would be the military upgrades system nerf all over again. Before CCP nerfed military upgrades, you could upgrade any system to be like any other, so ccp changed it to observe a systems ruesec (making large swaths of null sec next to worthless for income purposes). The stated goal was to drive conflict.

It didn't, because of the unintended consequences that come from "developing in a vaacum". it might have "driven conflcit" if EVE was nothing but null sec. What it actually drove was people to take their alts and put them in cheap frigs to orbit buttons in FW plex or fly machs and vindis in high sec incursions or other isk makiing pve, resulting in fewer people in null sec ratting (ie fewer targets for roaming gangs/raiders) Something that was supposed to drive conflict ended up driving carebearing lol.

Same here. You remove local and replace it with something not as good at helping people survive in null and all you end up with is fewer people doing PVE stuff in null sec, because most people will follow the path of least resistance...and that path leads to Emipre, or at best NPC null (null missions have the advantage of creating deadspace that requires the people trying to kill you to put probes in space, even if for only a short time).
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#397 - 2013-12-10 01:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Jenn aSide wrote:
Local isn't going anywhere, because at the end of the day, local is one of EVE Online's nessacary evils (like for instance, Gates, which reduce the vastness of space to small areas where people can force fights). It has to work this way because it it doesn't, few and fewer players will do things in dangerous places.


That's interesting because the "forcing fights" on gates is what boils down to gate camping, a playstyle just as damaging to the camper as the campee. Only mining can be more boring. But the "forced" PVP part, even where the carebears don't want PVP to be removed from the game, still has an air of defeat to it. If there was an island lets say, where there were great riches to be found, or some other adventure, but the only way into the island was to land on one known dock or beach where there was a score of people just waiting there to kill you once you arrived, would you go to that island? Gates and all that camping them has to offer is what keeps people away. But maybe the problem will be "certain" people no longer being kept away, and those doing the keeping away are going to lose... what? What will they lose?


Jenn aSide wrote:

It didn't, because of the unintended consequences that come from "developing in a vaacum". it might have "driven conflcit" if EVE was nothing but null sec. What it actually drove was people to take their alts and put them in cheap frigs to orbit buttons in FW plex or fly machs and vindis in high sec incursions or other isk makiing pve, resulting in fewer people in null sec ratting (ie fewer targets for roaming gangs/raiders) Something that was supposed to drive conflict ended up driving carebearing lol.

Same here. You remove local and replace it with something not as good at helping people survive in null and all you end up with is fewer people doing PVE stuff in null sec, because most people will follow the path of least resistance...and that path leads to Emipre, or at best NPC null (null missions have the advantage of creating deadspace that requires the people trying to kill you to put probes in space, even if for only a short time).



May I take this post and shove it at everybody posting a "grrrr highsec" thread? I take this to mean you are saying that everybody who plays the game is a risk-averse carebear. If that's what everybody is, all well and good. Nobody is going to force anybody to do anything so why bother. But we have had enough of people pushing the ePeen complaining about lack of targets - which is usually what happens to people who spend too much time gate camping (that's the damage I mentioned).

I for one would love to see a "necessary evil" get changed. Why? Well for years I took the advice of everybody who would willingly gank me 7 ways to Sunday and then take anything I say about that as "tears". I got into the habit of not putting so much aspergian "alpha-ism" into this game that if CCP introduced Kung Fu pandas, I have so little ego and persona invested that it would not bother me much, if at all. I come here to have a good time, and changes to local are likely to be a good time. At the least, the people screaming about "risk averse" players may be the ones complaining the loudest, and they'll be told to adapt.

But until such changes occur, this entire thread, goon propaganda included, is speculation.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#398 - 2013-12-10 01:17:41 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Without local, nobody would be able to earn enough in null to make being there worthwhile and in case you've forgotten, null is where the base of the T2 production pyramid is.

This is an assumption, that I refuse to support without logical reasoning or valid evidence.

In the many debates I have seen on this topic, not one bit of convincing foundational evidence has been provided, or logic that was soundly beyond convenience of the moment.

I get that players are used to local, and they are sometimes fearful of change.
I believe this is why local has persisted in this form for this long, CCP is being VERY careful how they do this.
You know it helps if you take your fingers out of your ears and stop saying "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#399 - 2013-12-10 01:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Right. Which is why you want us to stare at the overview instead. It's the exact same, except you give the ratter almost no time to react. At all.
I recently got tackled in nullsec by stealth bombers while I was in an interceptor, salvaging some T2 wrecks 80 km or so off of a gate. I had a warpout selected already but before I could even hit warp I was already scrammed and there was nothing I could do to get away. (An AB might have helped me but I didn't have one fit - regardless that's irrelevant to this thread).

This was at my peak alertness, mind you. Someone grinding for even half an hour won't be as alert, much less several hours. But that's what you're asking for.



Was it Harry? Why were you trying to salvage a wrecked cyno ship?

(sorry couldn't help it)

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#400 - 2013-12-10 01:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
May I take this post and shove it at everybody posting a "grrrr highsec" thread? I take this to mean you are saying that everybody who plays the game is a risk-averse carebear. If that's what everybody is, all well and good. Nobody is going to force anybody to do anything so why bother.

Except that taking the option available to me that gets me more isk with less effort and less risk doesn't make me risk-averse. It makes me a pragmatist. Let's put it this way: would you work as a beat cop in a violent suburb of Los Angeles for $60k a year, or would you work as the supervisor sitting in his comfy, safe office making twice as much? Are you being risk-averse if you pick the latter, or did you make the intelligent, practical choice?

Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
But we have had enough of people pushing the ePeen complaining about lack of targets - which is usually what happens to people who spend too much time gate camping (that's the damage I mentioned).

I certainly have no lack of people to shoot, so I don't know what their problem is.

Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Was it Harry? Why were you trying to salvage a wrecked cyno ship?

(sorry couldn't help it)

No, I was salvaging T2 frigate/destroyer/cruiser wrecks after a battle.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)