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Are the days of Local really numbered?

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Soma Khan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#281 - 2013-12-09 19:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Soma Khan
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
No, you clearly deserve every kill in every circumstance. Why not just immobilize ratters entirely while you're at it.

most vocal opponent of delayed local because giving up complete and total safety for your bots spells extinction for career rmters
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#282 - 2013-12-09 19:44:17 UTC
Soma Khan wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
No, you clearly deserve every kill in every circumstance. Why not just immobilize ratters entirely while you're at it.

most vocal opponent of delayed local because giving up complete and total safety for your ratting bots spells extinction for career rmters

Rhetoric and lies. No surprise.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#283 - 2013-12-09 19:51:11 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
You realize that it's not impossible to generate a safespot that is in fact not in alignment to a celestial from a given position....?

Dude you are just bad.
Seriously guy, I'm gonning to have to stop responding to everything you write because it's just getting dumber.
So let's see, do I know you can make a random safe not aligned between celestials? Of course. I also realise that no matter where your safe is in a system, I could still generate a bookmark to give me a trajectory that would land me in your path. It's not even difficult to do.

Seriously you need to learn a thing or two about the game mechanics.


Xuixien wrote:
Look, if someone really wants you dead that bad, you're dead. But most roaming gangs are not going to put that much effort to catch a difficult target - especially when every second they hang around waiting for their scout to get tackle is a second closer to getting discovered and blobbed. You don't seem to understand how ratting and PvP works.[/quote[Sure I do. The PVP player wants to kill the ratter for an easy KB pad. If he needs to generate a couple of bookmarks (which in fact takes very little time) he can and will. You are saying this like it would be a chore to do. Anyone that's half competent could knock out a trajectory in a very short time.

[quote=Xuixien]You realize that the yield between T1's and T2's doesn't justify the cost of T2's, right? Like, the difference isn't really that big.
Really? Please, enlighten me on all your mining knowledge. You seem to be such an expert, and I've only been mining for like, you know, ever and all that. Enlighten me on how you work out that it doesn't justify the cost?
Seeing that a hulk gets a 15% bonus and costs 210m, that means it buys itself entirely every 1.4b you mine just in extra yield, which really is not that much.

Seriously, I get that you want to argue and you fly your little drake around your wormhole screaming "no local, yay", but you seem to know next to nothing about the game mechanics.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#284 - 2013-12-09 19:51:48 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

I'm sorry, but until kill mails start reporting the tactics and circumstances of kills, beyond who was simply involved on a basic level applying DPS...
then pointing out how kills still happen is meaningless.


You should be sorry, because you are wrong.

Those kills show that every day, PvE ships, and haulers, and PvP ships that bit off more than they can chew, are being blown up all the time.

And CCP just added super fast bubble immune Intreceptors, and 2 more covops cloaked ships, and the ability for any ship to refit in hostile space.


If lazy gankers still can't get kills with all the tools the game provides, then removing local won't help them either. It will just make nullsec worth less on the risk/reward scale.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#285 - 2013-12-09 19:53:34 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Your claim about players ratting under the same conditions. Given that you're a wormhole player you're either completely confused about how PVE is actually done in nullsec and how conditions there are very different, or (more likely) you're just being completely disingenuous. Either way, you need your head checked.


Oh okay so basically you just misunderstood what I wrote. Okay then that can be fixed -

You wrote this:

how long do you think it takes someone who's ratting to identify that there's a hostile player on grid with him, reselect the warpout point (they're going to be targeting rats and selecting which ones to attack), and hit warp? Probably longer than it takes for you to lock and point them.

And I pointed out that there's already a group of players who rat under those conditions ("those conditions" being no Local and the possibility that there's a cloaky right next to you) - and they do just fine. You see in NullSec people whine about AFK cloakers and various "risks". In WH's you just assume there's already someone watching you. When you rat... you rat aligned to a safe. Or rather, at least I do. I've had Stealth Bombers and Proteui decloak next to me, but because I'm paying attention, I just click "warp" and off I go. My cursor is always on that warp button - or the DScan button.



Everything to do with delayed local wormholes is based on the premise that you don't have random roaming players every play session, and that attackers have to commit. ie WHs would be horribly safe with normal local once you commit to living there and controlling the exit.

I have random roaming players every play session. Right now we have a neutral cloaker known to hotdrop blops basically working our constellation in my TZ. The attackers aren't really committed ie they could drop into any of 50 systems that their scouts are covering.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#286 - 2013-12-09 19:55:08 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So let's see, do I know you can make a random safe not aligned between celestials? Of course. I also realise that no matter where your safe is in a system, I could still generate a bookmark to give me a trajectory that would land me in your path. It's not even difficult to do.


There's a difference between "can be done" and "will be done in a high enough frequency to be statistically relevant". While I can see someone generating bookmark to give a trajectory on, say, a ratting carrier that's aligned between two celestials... I do not see anyone except the most desperate doing so to kill a Raven or something.

Your posts are starting to degenerate into aspie-level flaming with very little pertinent content to them. So yeah maybe it is best if you showed yourself the door. Bear

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#287 - 2013-12-09 19:58:40 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Right now we have a neutral cloaker known to hotdrop blops basically working our constellation in my TZ. The attackers aren't really committed ie they could drop into any of 50 systems that their scouts are covering.


Then form a response fleet, bait them into dropping, and then give them a bloody nose. Do this enough times and they will pick a new group to mess with.

EVE is easy if you're not lazy and expect CCP to hand you things.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#288 - 2013-12-09 19:58:58 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
You do realize that with the exception of Minmatar and a very small number of Caldari ships, most ships have fixed damage type, right? Like if I'm in an Enyo there's really no way I'm going to "swap my loadout" to hit that Raven's EM hole... lol come on dude, you're embarrassing yourself.
I'm sorry, what? Did you just say "a very small number of Caldari ships"?
Do you really think there's just a single type of missile?

And while you could easily swap ships, why would you not swap your fit on an Enyo? You realise that it being Gallente doesn't mean you can't fit it with autocannons and load it with EM. If someone has a 40% EM resist and a 90% thermal/kinetic resist, you'd be better off loading it out with EM autocannons and ignore the 10% hybrid bonus you get.

Xuixien wrote:
I believe you originally said "seal off", not "shut down" - don't try to change your words around on me, boy. :) And you can indeed "seal off" areas in NullSec, it's called a gatecamp with bubbles.
Uhh genius... it was in comparison with WH space... In WH space you know you can collapse all of the wormholes right? If you've got a static, you'll need to keep that but can dump it somewhere empty. Most sensible people farming in WHs though pick a hole with no statics to farm in so they can seal it entirely.
A few bubbles doesn't stop a faster cloaker coming in. It also does not stop a covert cyno.

Xuixien wrote:
"Waaaah, don't make EVE harder, I don't want to spend too much effort also I don't want to lose ships."
Actually it's "don't give us a bunch of trivial **** to do just to make a cloakers ganks easy", while yours appear to be "'I know very little about EVE, let me demonstrate...".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#289 - 2013-12-09 20:03:04 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
So let's see, do I know you can make a random safe not aligned between celestials? Of course. I also realise that no matter where your safe is in a system, I could still generate a bookmark to give me a trajectory that would land me in your path. It's not even difficult to do.


There's a difference between "can be done" and "will be done in a high enough frequency to be statistically relevant". While I can see someone generating bookmark to give a trajectory on, say, a ratting carrier that's aligned between two celestials... I do not see anyone except the most desperate doing so to kill a Raven or something.
It will be done in a high enough frequency to be statistically relevant. it's not a difficult task. You seem to be treating it like a PVPer would need to go out of his way to do it. He wouldn't, it's REALLY easy to do. We in fact used to have to do it to probe people down, since you can to drop probes while at locations around your target, you couldn't move them using the map like you can now.

Not everyone is as bad at EVE as you bro.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#290 - 2013-12-09 20:06:27 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

I'm sorry, but until kill mails start reporting the tactics and circumstances of kills, beyond who was simply involved on a basic level applying DPS...
then pointing out how kills still happen is meaningless.


You should be sorry, because you are wrong.

Those kills show that every day, PvE ships, and haulers, and PvP ships that bit off more than they can chew, are being blown up all the time.

And CCP just added super fast bubble immune Intreceptors, and 2 more covops cloaked ships, and the ability for any ship to refit in hostile space.


If lazy gankers still can't get kills with all the tools the game provides, then removing local won't help them either. It will just make nullsec worth less on the risk/reward scale.




I still can't believe I'm seeing this. I swear this is reverse psychology.

Why are goons even in nullsec at all? Would such large membership numbers not be possible with the paltry rewards of highsec ISK? Did someone make an advert based on being safer in nullsec?

You know the world is flipped when even the goons are worried about risk. I need a drink (or 10).

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#291 - 2013-12-09 20:10:03 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I'm sorry, what? Did you just say "a very small number of Caldari ships"?
Do you really think there's just a single type of missile?


Please tell me how many Caldari ships get a general bonus to missile damage rather than a bonus to missile kinetic damage.

(ProTip: You're better off firing kinetic missiles if you're kinetic bonused than you are firing EM missiles at a ship with a small EM hole. But this is really technical PvP type stuff and I don't expect someone who can't even figure out how to rat while aligned to understand. Cool)

Lucas Kell wrote:
why would you not swap your fit on an Enyo? You realise that it being Gallente doesn't mean you can't fit it with autocannons and load it with EM.


You are really, really reaching now.

Lucas Kell wrote:
If someone has a 40% EM resist and a 90% thermal/kinetic resist, you'd be better off loading it out with EM autocannons and ignore the 10% hybrid bonus you get.


Do you know what kind of damage unbonused AutoCannons get? Like 100. And that's paper DPS, not applied DPS. (ProTip: Applied DPS of unbonused ACs sucks). You'd be better off using Void in your example.

This conversation is getting really convoluted if we're arguing the technicalities of DPS vs resistances in a thread about Local chat. This indicates to me that you are in fact a moron who doesn't really grasp the big picture.

Lucas Kell wrote:

A few bubbles doesn't stop a faster cloaker coming in. It also does not stop a covert cyno.


And? Having Local isn't going to save you from a Covert Cyno. You should stop posting.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#292 - 2013-12-09 20:11:36 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
It will be done in a high enough frequency to be statistically relevant.


I'll await solid proof from you on that, then.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#293 - 2013-12-09 20:17:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
If the tears being generated in this thread are any indication at the very idea that Local might be removed or altered, the tears are going to be EPICALLY GLORIOUS when CCP actually does iterate on the feature.

LolLolLolLolLolLol

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#294 - 2013-12-09 20:18:24 UTC
Let's talk about how there's a very small number of ships that can rat aligned. Or were you ignoring that part too?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#295 - 2013-12-09 20:19:24 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
If the tears being generated in this thread are any indication at the very idea that Local might be removed or altered, the tears are going to be EPICALLY GLORIOUS when CCP actually does iterate on the feature.

LolLolLolLolLolLol

You clearly ignored (you're really good at that) the part where several of us have said that altering local is fine, given some provisions.
Completely removing it without a replacement is not an option, and you're pretty much the only one who thinks it is.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#296 - 2013-12-09 20:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Xuixien wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Right now we have a neutral cloaker known to hotdrop blops basically working our constellation in my TZ. The attackers aren't really committed ie they could drop into any of 50 systems that their scouts are covering.


Then form a response fleet, bait them into dropping, and then give them a bloody nose. Do this enough times and they will pick a new group to mess with.

EVE is easy if you're not lazy and expect CCP to hand you things.


I'm perfectly fine with the current system, I don't need CCP to change things.Roll

note that in a delayed local scenario, we'd need to have the response fleet there 24x7 because we couldn't -see- the scouts, and that response fleet has to cover 60 systems which has implications for the kinds of pilots that would need to be committed. It all sounds remarkably improbable to me.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#297 - 2013-12-09 20:26:38 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Right now we have a neutral cloaker known to hotdrop blops basically working our constellation in my TZ. The attackers aren't really committed ie they could drop into any of 50 systems that their scouts are covering.


Then form a response fleet, bait them into dropping, and then give them a bloody nose. Do this enough times and they will pick a new group to mess with.

EVE is easy if you're not lazy and expect CCP to hand you things.


I'm perfectly fine with the current system, I don't need CCP to change things.Roll

note that in a delayed local scenario, we'd need to have the response fleet there 24x7 because we couldn't -see- the scouts, and that response fleet has to cover 60 systems which has implications for the kinds of pilots that would need to be committed. It all sounds remarkably improbable to me.


So what you're saying is there's a group of players out there who are covering 60 of your systems, but you're unable to cover those same 60 systems, even though you own them?

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#298 - 2013-12-09 20:27:59 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Please tell me how many Caldari ships get a general bonus to missile damage rather than a bonus to missile kinetic damage.

(ProTip: You're better off firing kinetic missiles if you're kinetic bonused than you are firing EM missiles at a ship with a small EM hole. But this is really technical PvP type stuff and I don't expect someone who can't even figure out how to rat while aligned to understand. Cool)
Oh OK. So in your weird math, please explain to me why a kinetic missile with a bonus does better than an EM missile against a target with 90% kin/40% EM resists.
Seriously, if you've got some magic way that's better I'd be interested in knowing.

Xuixien wrote:
You are really, really reaching now.
LOL. Pointing out you're serious lack of EVE knowledge is reaching?

Xuixien wrote:
Do you know what kind of damage unbonused AutoCannons get? Like 100. And that's paper DPS, not applied DPS. (ProTip: Applied DPS of unbonused ACs sucks). You'd be better off using Void in your example.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. L2P. Really, L2P.

Xuixien wrote:
And? Having Local isn't going to save you from a Covert Cyno. You should stop posting.
Uhh no, but local lets you know there's someone about. You are implying that WH having no local proves that it would work in null.
You are wrong. You are in fact completely wrong. You seem to barely have a basic understanding of EVE mechanics. And literally every post you are just digging deeper and deeper by spewing out more and more completely wrong information.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#299 - 2013-12-09 20:28:09 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Bla bla bla, I'm really mad at you for making me feel stupid so I'm going to refrain from trying to make any points and just insult you instead.


Not empty quoting.

Take care guys. Really excited about this upcoming iteration to Local. Pirate

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#300 - 2013-12-09 20:31:06 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
If the tears being generated in this thread are any indication at the very idea that Local might be removed or altered, the tears are going to be EPICALLY GLORIOUS when CCP actually does iterate on the feature.

LolLolLolLolLolLol

You realise us pointing out that you are in fact an artard is not tears right? Oh maybe you don't. I mean you don;t know how most of EVE works, so how should I expect you to understand the community.

And no matter what they put in, it will change nothing. It will at most be what we have no with buttons to push. There's no way CCP are just going to dump local and open PVE players up to masses of ganking. What we are complaining about is they are going to waste time putting in a completely pointless change when there are literally hundreds of other mechanics that need work and would provide actual benefits to the game.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.