These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Two years later: Walking in Stations

First post
Author
Davon Mandra'thin
Consultech Intermediary Services
#161 - 2013-12-08 11:49:41 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

This is the truth, the rest is revisionism (some times caressed by Tippia as well).

Nobody except the usual powerblocs prima donnas and their feet lickers was against WiS.

We (I organized a part of it) revolted because of factors that led to the WiS fiasco but also to a ton of other fiascos at that time: lack of quality, of morality, disgusting greed both shown in our face and in internal documents and even on 3rd party freeware developers.

These and these were the threads circulating at the time. Some will recognize in those threads posters, the players who would brew up the Big Revolt. I.e. Miilla.

All that discontent got awesomely summed up by a true Disgruntled Playerbase Manifesto for that era: Alter bad new company direction, STOP rushing stuff out made by one of the few posters worth undying respect: Akita T.

That was a whole Dark CCP Age, WiS came up so bad because it was half assed like the rest of the garbage (i.e. Dominion and then PI) they made at that time. WiS fiasco is due to CCP overpromising and vastly underdelivering, not because of players opposition.

Sure, some player organizations and their lacchés were well interested into immediately putting blame and shame on WiS (and later, on Incursions, guess why?) but they are just hollow liars talking their interest.

Well said, with references and everything. One like just for an especially high quality post. Wish I could give you a second like for the content as well.
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#162 - 2013-12-08 11:50:39 UTC
Some of us CANT walk anymore. So WiS is useless.
Remember that next time you demand it :'(

Help the aged,
One time they were just like you,
Drinking, smoking cigs and sniffing glue.
Help the aged,
Don't just put them in a home,
Can't have much fun when they're all on their own.
Give a hand, if you can,
Try and help them to unwind.
Give them hope and give them comfort
'cause they're running out of time.

In the meantime we try.
Try to forget that nothing lasts forever.
No big deal so give us all a feel.
Funny how it all falls away.
When did you first realize?
It's time you took an older lover baby.
Teach you stuff although he's looking rough.
Funny how it all falls away.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Kinvaryn
Deep Space Exploration and Industrial
#163 - 2013-12-08 13:30:15 UTC
I've only made it to page 6, and will probably ammend this post as i work may way around this thread.

I will state that in the years since 2007, my initial excursion into the universe of Eve Online, my biggest desire has been the immersion that WIS was promised to provide. I have little interest in hanging out in bars, but much more in the corporate interactivity aspect that such an environment provides. Being able to plot supply routes on a shared map, discuss points and tactics and display them - again, on a shared interface, in 3D - is an invaluable tool that would greatly deepen the gameplay value of Eve.

I'm looking forward to continued development on the CQ model, both in content/utility expansion as well as visual fluff.
If WIS could lead to more content in the game, even (or especially) in the case of expanded gameplay beyond spaceships, Eve's value would increase immeasurably.
I got lucky with the Boot.ini situation, i rarely turned the computer off at the time... Hell, I rarely logged off Eve!
The CQ situation didn't bother me too much, I was able to run 4 accounts on high settings in the quarters without too much issue, I later scaled back the alts on settings and ran only my primary character on high. It ran smoother, I was not dissapointed in the performance of the expansion.
I was however, dissapointed in the content delivered. At first it was amazing, I redesigned my characters and rather enjoyed the result. Then I stepped into the CQ and within moments ran out of things to do.

From a design and idea standpoint, there is a tremendous amount of content that could be added to greatly improve both the new and veteran player experiences from the CQ/WIS standpoint. Such opportunity should not be passed over.

From a technical standpoint, I know what's involved. I've designed and built virtual things for years, both the coding and graphical content. I still believe it's something that can be done, especially with the talent that CCP employees display with each new release of content.

I've noticed a trend among the naysayers, that extends far beyond Eve players specifically. They're the typical type that shoots down an idea soley for the reason that it doesn't support their game play style. A sandbox universe caters to many types of gameplay, Eve is not strictly about nullsec blocs, or even pvp. There is a massive world outside of those things, Eve is a content rich universe with nearly unlimited potential. Dedicating a group to developing that potential is absolutely what I think CCP should be doing, and seems to be a major drive in the content they're releasing as is.

CCP knows now, and will not forget that reducing content while attempting to milk more money is not a good plan. But that was one hickup in a stream of successful release, from a company that consistantly pays attention and delivers what we're after. Don't forget that point.
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#164 - 2013-12-08 13:34:44 UTC
Kinvaryn wrote:


From a design and idea standpoint, there is a tremendous amount of content that could be added to greatly improve both the new and veteran player experiences from the CQ/WIS standpoint. Such opportunity should not be passed over.



Like what though?

No one has given up one decent suggestion about what would actually be added in terms of real content by WiS

Im not having a go, Im seriously asking...


Beyond turning the station buttons into places you had to spend time walking to, what extra content would WiS allow?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Hemi DarkStar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2013-12-08 13:49:44 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Kinvaryn wrote:


From a design and idea standpoint, there is a tremendous amount of content that could be added to greatly improve both the new and veteran player experiences from the CQ/WIS standpoint. Such opportunity should not be passed over.



Like what though?

No one has given up one decent suggestion about what would actually be added in terms of real content by WiS

Im not having a go, Im seriously asking...


Beyond turning the station buttons into places you had to spend time walking to, what extra content would WiS allow?


Go ahead, give us your ideas for WiS. That, or leave this discussion to people that actually love the idea of WiS.

You can ask others to come up with ideas all day, and you will prob bash those ideas too. (that seems to be your approach anyway...) Not very constructive if you ask me...
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#166 - 2013-12-08 13:51:20 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
people thinking the whole "summer of rage" was because of Incarna and WiS should remain quiet when people are discussing things they know nothing about... the real reason entire corps hit the unsub button was the "golden ammo" pseudo leak.

as soon as that hit locals and alliance chats everywhere, no one threatened to unsub, they just did it. and it was that lack of warning and "omg im going to unsub" threads that sent CCP into panic mode, this wasn't a bunch of 13year olds threatening to unsub if they didn't get what they wanted, this was people that already said "**** it, im out", no farewell threads, no stuff giveaways, nothing, just a corp mail saying "sorry guys, im going back to minesweeper and solitaire".

the idea of killing the sandbox and introducing Aur for Standing, Aur for better ammo, and several other things along the same lines was the end of it for a lot of people.

it wasn't Wis, it was the Aur store. mainly the fact that they were breaking the promise of "only cosmetical items".

so no, Wis was just another niche feature that 60% of eve didn't care for, but the other 40% loved. just like when they finnaly get to do the fabled SoV revamp... guess what, most people live on high, whs or low... they don't care for SoV. still, everyone agrees that its necessary and would be nice to have, dynamic Sov means more Pew Pew, more Pew Pew, more life in the sandbox.

this is eve, we are used to having features that target some obscure section of the player base, and we are fine with it because we are not wowtards, we understand that in this game its all connected. and Wis is targeted to a section of the player base that loses ships, holds sov, carebears in high and Rps a pirate in low, they are everywhere, and more of them wouldn't hurt this game in the least bit.


This thank you!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#167 - 2013-12-08 14:01:59 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:

Beyond turning the station buttons into places you had to spend time walking to, what extra content would WiS allow?


Depends on how you define real content. *shuffles a deck of cards* One thing I know I would like, having run more than one corp, is a corp office where members can have some 'face time, and maybe play poker while we sit around and bullshit in chat.


Maybe chess for those with a more cerebral bent,.


In station stores might allow you to have discounts for alliance members, or some such thing beyond what the market currently allows.
Stitcher
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#168 - 2013-12-08 14:03:12 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Davon Mandra'thin wrote:
People didn't leave during Incarna because of Walking in Stations.


Sure they did.


They didn't, but even if they had my attitude would be much the same as it is now: "And nothing of value was lost".

Seriously, a handful of drama queens quitting because they'd wildly misinterpreted what was happening and/or because they dislike change doesn't trouble me in the slightest.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#169 - 2013-12-08 14:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Hemi DarkStar wrote:


Go ahead, give us your ideas for WiS. That, or leave this discussion to people that actually love the idea of WiS.

You can ask others to come up with ideas all day, and you will prob bash those ideas too. (that seems to be your approach anyway...) Not very constructive if you ask me...


O.o

Wat the heck are you on about?

Im asking for one single reason that WiS equates more content

No one has even made a single suggestion about what it would allow that is currently not available

So I cant have bashed any ideas already, because there havent been any.

Also, I wasnt aware that only people who were in support of the topic for discussion were allowed to discuss it?

Because thats not a discussion, bud

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Kinvaryn
Deep Space Exploration and Industrial
#170 - 2013-12-08 14:15:34 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Kinvaryn wrote:


From a design and idea standpoint, there is a tremendous amount of content that could be added to greatly improve both the new and veteran player experiences from the CQ/WIS standpoint. Such opportunity should not be passed over.



Like what though?

No one has given up one decent suggestion about what would actually be added in terms of real content by WiS

Im not having a go, Im seriously asking...


Beyond turning the station buttons into places you had to spend time walking to, what extra content would WiS allow?


First paragraph of my post had a glimpse of at least some potential use:
Quote:
I have little interest in hanging out in bars, but much more in the corporate interactivity aspect that such an environment provides. Being able to plot supply routes on a shared map, discuss points and tactics and display them - again, on a shared interface, in 3D - is an invaluable tool that would greatly deepen the gameplay value of Eve.



That's one idea. One of many. Things that come to mind are numerous, thinking them out for the sake of a post takes more time, though.

One thing that shouldn't be too hard to move over is the command room intro pre-dust match that the mercs stand around idly in. They really can't use it like we could in eve. That area would make for a great display of 3d solar and galaxy maps, editable fitting window where corp fittings can be adjusted and displayed.

Do not limit your ideas, expand upon them. Creativity is the root of innovation.
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#171 - 2013-12-08 14:19:24 UTC
Kinvaryn wrote:

First paragraph of my post had a glimpse of at least some potential use:
Quote:
I have little interest in hanging out in bars, but much more in the corporate interactivity aspect that such an environment provides. Being able to plot supply routes on a shared map, discuss points and tactics and display them - again, on a shared interface, in 3D - is an invaluable tool that would greatly deepen the gameplay value of Eve.


That's one idea. One of many. Things that come to mind are numerous, thinking them out for the sake of a post takes more time, though.

One thing that shouldn't be too hard to move over is the command room intro pre-dust match that the mercs stand around idly in. They really can't use it like we could in eve. That area would make for a great display of 3d solar and galaxy maps, editable fitting window where corp fittings can be adjusted and displayed.

Do not limit your ideas, expand upon them. Creativity is the root of innovation.


I do like this idea, but I would like to assume that it would be an option to do it without WiS too, for those of us that find it diffiuclt to find the processing time on limited systems to load the WiS graphics for a facility that you can do as a screen?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#172 - 2013-12-08 14:20:28 UTC
My input to all of this Walking in Stations is the following:

I believe it's a good idea. I can understand why it has been put on hold, since it's almost like developing an entire new game along side EVE.

With Dust available, and with future plans for more integration of Dust into EVE, I believe this would be a good time to give WiS a serious consideration once more. It seems almost like a perfect way to get some more integration by allowing both EVE and Dust players to roam in stations, meeting each others face-to-face.

Once the scaling issues of EVE vs. Dust economies have been solved, then WiS may just be a perfect way for Dust mercenaries to get sponsors via. wealthy EVE players and EVE corporations. This approach would also add a further level of metagame mechanics to WiS instead of it just ending up as a glorified chat channel.

For the developers:
My suggestion is just to start with a generic indoor environment for each faction, so each station of Caldari would look the same inside, bit boring I know, but it's a way to get started, cosmetic differentiation could come later.

Then it's simply a matter of expanding the Captain's Quarter module to a station-wide environment. But remember to optimize the engine, since I seem to remember it running quite heavy on the GPU.

Naturally let people decide for themselves if they wish to leave their ship and enter the station once they've docked their ship. Don't force it on people :)

Think this was most of my feedback on this for now.

Cheers.
Stitcher
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#173 - 2013-12-08 14:39:20 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:

Like what though?

No one has given up one decent suggestion about what would actually be added in terms of real content by WiS

Im not having a go, Im seriously asking...

Beyond turning the station buttons into places you had to spend time walking to, what extra content would WiS allow?


The key is to stop thinking of stations as just the docking interface and service buttons. Instead, imagine that when you walk through that door, you have effectively undocked, but into a different kind of space, with your avatar as a different kind of spaceship.

So objecting that WiS forces you to walk to a button that's just there in your NEOCOM anyway kind of misses the point of what's being proposed. I'm suggesting that new stuff should be added that's NOT already present in the station services - there should be new places for you to go, new resources for you to acquire and new ways for you to interact with other players, exactly as if you had undocked in a spaceship.

In space, I have to (for example) fly to a system, scan down a thing, warp to that thing, shoot the rats, hack the container, carry what I earn from hacking back to a station/POS/market hub and then either sell it, or manufacture then sell it. All while dodging or competing with other players.

What I'm proposing is something similar for WiS - I have to (for example) walk to a deck on the station, locate an unsecure data relay in the station's maintenance shafts, hack past a corporate firewall, upload my profile as a megacorporate executive with access to be there, walk into the office, steal the information and escape without being caught, then either sell or manufacture-then-sell the resources thus earned, all while dodging or competing with other players.

I think there should be combat, based around soft clones - dying on a station should come with a SERIOUS case of lost SP if you're not careful to keep your soft backup up-to-date. It should revolve around cover, and missing a lot - capsuleers aren't that tough, so getting shot should HURT. Highsec stations should be harder to smuggle stuff into, but safer from being betrayed and shot up. Lowsec stations should be much easier destinations for the contraband, but the meetings where you trade your smuggled wares for ISK should be tense affairs, with both parties having drones and escape plans for if things go badly wrong.

Stuff like that. There are all kinds of gameplay options for WiS provided we let go of the idea that you should be able to do everything in a station from the comfort and safety of home. If you want to go "off the grid" for a bit.

The funny thing is that the way I envision WiS working is very much in keeping with the current narrative arc of leaving the empires behind.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#174 - 2013-12-08 14:45:38 UTC
Stitcher wrote:


The key is to stop thinking of stations as just the docking interface and service buttons. Instead, imagine that when you walk through that door, you have effectively undocked, but into a different kind of space, with your avatar as a different kind of spaceship.

So objecting that WiS forces you to walk to a button that's just there in your NEOCOM anyway kind of misses the point of what's being proposed. I'm suggesting that new stuff should be added that's NOT already present in the station services - there should be new places for you to go, new resources for you to acquire and new ways for you to interact with other players, exactly as if you had undocked in a spaceship....

What I'm proposing is something similar for WiS - I have to (for example) walk to a deck on the station, locate an unsecure data relay in the station's maintenance shafts, hack past a corporate firewall, upload my profile as a megacorporate executive with access to be there, walk into the office, steal the information and escape without being caught, then either sell or manufacture-then-sell the resources thus earned, all while dodging or competing with other players.

I think there should be combat, based around soft clones - dying on a station should come with a SERIOUS case of lost SP if you're not careful to keep your soft backup up-to-date. It should revolve around cover, and missing a lot - capsuleers aren't that tough, so getting shot should HURT. Highsec stations should be harder to smuggle stuff into, but safer from being betrayed and shot up. Lowsec stations should be much easier destinations for the contraband, but the meetings where you trade your smuggled wares for ISK should be tense affairs, with both parties having drones and escape plans for if things go badly wrong.

Stuff like that. There are all kinds of gameplay options for WiS provided we let go of the idea that you should be able to do everything in a station from the comfort and safety of home. If you want to go "off the grid" for a bit.

The funny thing is that the way I envision WiS working is very much in keeping with the current narrative arc of leaving the empires behind.


I want to make it clear Im NOT against the idea of WiS (which some people have assumed, not really suggesting you did) , I just wanted to know what people thought they would be getting out of it.

The ideas above are exactly the sort of thing that should be possible.

Should the Captain's Quarters be "safe"? Or should you be able to train skills that would allow you, in the appropriate low security stations, allow you to hack the door and storm in with your "man-blob" and riddle his clone with munitions as he stands there in his pants?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Duran Veldspur
First Imperial Caldari Bank
#175 - 2013-12-08 14:46:38 UTC
Solhild wrote:
[quote=Little Dragon Khamez]
Truth here. I joined EVE in 2008 thinking I was playing the long game in a growing Sci-Fi universe. In reality, CCP have utterly messed this up. At least they are fixing the core code of EVE and it seems pretty robust. I also like the way CCP markets itself and the devs involved in the game.

Unfortunately, CCP's stagnation has contributed to me winding down accounts and pushing £hundreds onto other Sci-Fi universe games in Kickstarter.



same here, but i am not sure CCP cares, no dev has commented on this thread and i think CCP just hopes WiS talk quietly goes away for another two years, rinse repeat
Duran Veldspur
First Imperial Caldari Bank
#176 - 2013-12-08 14:52:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Hemi DarkStar wrote:


Go ahead, give us your ideas for WiS. That, or leave this discussion to people that actually love the idea of WiS.

You can ask others to come up with ideas all day, and you will prob bash those ideas too. (that seems to be your approach anyway...) Not very constructive if you ask me...


O.o

Wat the heck are you on about?

Im asking for one single reason that WiS equates more content

No one has even made a single suggestion about what it would allow that is currently not available

So I cant have bashed any ideas already, because there havent been any.

Also, I wasnt aware that only people who were in support of the topic for discussion were allowed to discuss it?

Because thats not a discussion, bud



from what i have read there are plenty of suggestions for content WIS would provide on this thread,
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#177 - 2013-12-08 14:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Duran Veldspur wrote:

from what i have read there are plenty of suggestions for content WIS would provide on this thread,
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Sorry if my opinion differs from yours

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Ambassador Crane
Hellhound Productions
#178 - 2013-12-08 15:21:43 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:

Should the Captain's Quarters be "safe"? Or should you be able to train skills that would allow you, in the appropriate low security stations, allow you to hack the door and storm in with your "man-blob" and riddle his clone with munitions as he stands there in his pants?


Yes, CQ should be "safe" for a few simple reasons.

Allow the CQ to be unsafe and that would pretty much leave you absolutely NO safe locations in Eve. While I'm all about Eve being a harsh world, it's still a game where people need to have some place they can go and be safe without logging off. Otherwise you'll lose more potential accounts than you'll gain. Also, not giving any place for people to be safe will give access to griefing on a whole new level. We all know there will be people that will just camp someone's clone spawn location and kill them all the way back to 0 SP.
BLACK-STAR
#179 - 2013-12-08 15:53:21 UTC
I could imagine the loading screens would be horribly-long walking around in a map the size of ~64 CQ's with hundreds of people walking around, take the trade hubs for example or alliance stations.



I'll just throw ideas out that have probably been mentioned. Vaguely described..

Stations
  • Lobby with elevators to areas and customized areas to reduce loading all rooms and ppl. Preset offices are there like Concord, Medical, Bounty etc. Add a Lotto booth.
  • Allow ppl in CQ to jump to any area in the station through the elevators.'
  • Areas of the station can be password protected or privatized to corp/alliance/contacts only.
  • Offices/Rooms can be installed:
  • Corp Offices, with charts and reports, sovereignty and militia info.
  • NPC Offices, make your own agents with their own abusive personalities, needs, payouts, upgrade their CV's etc. Get noobs to run some missions from your agent and maybe hint them to join your corp as a recruiting mechanism. ?
  • Custom Rooms:
  • slots players must rent and can expire or be evicted. Different tiers and types of rooms to accommodate player gatherings:
  • War Rooms, loaded with features. e.g. star map display with presets/campaigns loaded by the corp/alliance.
  • Event Rooms, social gathering rooms of different tiers to accommodate different amounts of players, items, abilities etc. Such as bars, gambling games and mini games. People could probably use these as club rooms or hording frozen corpses.
  • Shops, players can sell what they want. Reliable tradesman would have kept their rent up and eventually build a customer base he trades/sells -- even this can apply for a corp trying to sell things at a large scale. Shops (and public Event Rooms) can have public feedback on their information tabs and erasable after closed for a duration of time.


I think mostly roll players would use it but I think the War Room would be cool to realtime plan an op with your fleet, friends, militia, whatever group. Making your own station and getting the right people creating feasible content inside of it to generate income/traffic (or gamble it in the bar/mini games) is probably the only interest people and new comers would have in it. You're still going to have players that will never leave a Hangar and able to buy through the shop in the neocom.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#180 - 2013-12-08 16:18:28 UTC
When you say "People weren't mad about Incarna, they were mad about microtransactions" you chose to overlook the fact that the only reason Incarna was developed in the first place was as an environment to show off your microtransactions.

CCP sold you a bucket of empty promises and hype about immersion and social environments and corp offices to mask the reality that all they were providing were catwalks for you to parade around in your monocles and space shoes after paying for the same game twice, and they were so locked into that goal that they released the NeX Store and Captain's Quarters even when every other promise made for Incarna had fallen by the wayside. Amazingly, some of you are so easily fooled that you're still buying into that hype today, long after the charade has collapsed in flames and what work has been done on WiS since then is the gameplay concepts that should have been in development back in 2006.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.