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Question for the Vet's??

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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-12-06 18:45:53 UTC
Holgrak Blacksmith wrote:
A guy who has tonnes of pvp experience can start a new character, and within a week, totally **** up a guy with tonnes of skills and little pvp experience. End of.

In fact, any mmo for which this doesn't hold true dies a swift death.

How I wish that were true. Too many require you to "level" first.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#62 - 2013-12-06 18:52:16 UTC
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,


5/10 you got me to respond.\

blob pvp = no skill small scale or solo = large amount of skill

and sorry i am a banker not a vet but i have played the game for 7.5 years.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#63 - 2013-12-06 18:57:01 UTC
i would go by this:

knowledge is power knowing what to do with it is wisdom.

that carries over for sp. just cuss you have it you got power... but if you dont know how to use it you have no skill.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#64 - 2013-12-06 20:17:40 UTC
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,


I'm a helpful troll. That's a rare combination.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Jimmy O'Shanty
The Westies
#65 - 2013-12-06 21:24:13 UTC
Skill points absolutely matter. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You'll always be at a disadvantage to a guy whose guns hit harder or whose tank takes more hits than yours does.

That said, it doesn't take long to level the playing field in frigates and T1 cruisers. Skills cap at 5 for everyone.
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#66 - 2013-12-09 13:36:01 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Even after playing for 4 months my frigate is less agile, does less damage, and can take less punishment than another player in the same ship with a year of game played.
If you wanted to reach parity faster, you could have focused on damage output first and flown close range gank fits. Agility and tank don't matter when you're flying a glass cannon with an optimal range of 2k.

Based on a quick session with EVEMon and an alt the other day, I think you could get very respectable DPS out of a frigate in that time frame.

SP give you flexibility, not necessarily superiority.


Flexibility is Superiority.


Woman would tend to disagree with that statement....


I find flexible women superior.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#67 - 2013-12-09 20:50:51 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,

SP isn't important in the grand scheme of things, friends, knowledge of what your ship is capable of and game mechanics are much more useful. More SP generally means one thing, it hurts more financially when you lose.

Case in point Goons, almost universally maligned, started out using a zerg rush of low SP characters and cheap ships in a war of attrition against a far more established enemy (ie pretty everybody in nullsec) to get to where they are now, BNI are following in their footsteps.


They also lost all those early engagements. Mittens gave a good presentation on this: They didn't start making gains until they had the SP to fly bigger things.

I mean. SP determines which ships you can fly, what tech level modules you can fit, how effective those modules are, how much you can tank, how much DPS you do, how fast your ship goes, how much cap you have... yeah I can see how that's totally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#68 - 2013-12-09 21:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Xuixien wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,

SP isn't important in the grand scheme of things, friends, knowledge of what your ship is capable of and game mechanics are much more useful. More SP generally means one thing, it hurts more financially when you lose.

Case in point Goons, almost universally maligned, started out using a zerg rush of low SP characters and cheap ships in a war of attrition against a far more established enemy (ie pretty everybody in nullsec) to get to where they are now, BNI are following in their footsteps.


They also lost all those early engagements. Mittens gave a good presentation on this: They didn't start making gains until they had the SP to fly bigger things.

I mean. SP determines which ships you can fly, what tech level modules you can fit, how effective those modules are, how much you can tank, how much DPS you do, how fast your ship goes, how much cap you have... yeah I can see how that's totally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Conversely you can have a 130M SP character and know diddly squat about game mechanics or what the ship you're using is capable of, in which case 9 times out of 10 you'll lose a PvP encounter. Knowledge outside of pure SP is part of being successful in Eve. I would hazard a guess that the knowledge Goons gained by losing badly in the early days contributed just as much to their increased performance and continued success as the SP gains made during their early period.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#69 - 2013-12-09 21:15:08 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,

SP isn't important in the grand scheme of things, friends, knowledge of what your ship is capable of and game mechanics are much more useful. More SP generally means one thing, it hurts more financially when you lose.

Case in point Goons, almost universally maligned, started out using a zerg rush of low SP characters and cheap ships in a war of attrition against a far more established enemy (ie pretty everybody in nullsec) to get to where they are now, BNI are following in their footsteps.


They also lost all those early engagements. Mittens gave a good presentation on this: They didn't start making gains until they had the SP to fly bigger things.

I mean. SP determines which ships you can fly, what tech level modules you can fit, how effective those modules are, how much you can tank, how much DPS you do, how fast your ship goes, how much cap you have... yeah I can see how that's totally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Conversely you can have a 130M SP character and know diddly squat about game mechanics or what the ship you're using is capable of, in which case 9 times out of 10 you'll lose a PvP encounter. Knowledge outside of pure SP is part of being successful in Eve. I would hazard a guess that the knowledge Goons gained by losing badly in the early days contributed just as much to their increased performance and continued success as the SP gains made during their early period.


Yeah; they learned to ship up.

At any rate, my point is that SP is not irrelevant. You can know everything about the game but if all you have is a million SP, you're not going to compete. You can also have max SP but if you know nothing, you won't compete. Player experience and SP are a synergy that go hand in hand.

I mean the fact that people say "don't worry skills cap out at five" is proof positive that SP matters, otherwise they wouldn't need to reassure the newbies about skill capping.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#70 - 2013-12-09 21:19:47 UTC
Point conceded, SP is to a certain extent important especially when combined with experience and knowledge, but alone it means nothing.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#71 - 2013-12-09 21:38:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,


While I imagine that this is a troll question, I will take the bait -- as a general proposition in eve the skill involved is not the skill you think it is. When most people think of pvp skill, they are thinking of twitchy types of games. But that is not eve. While there can be a twitch element to eve especially if you fly a kiting ship, it is generally true that in many instances the fight is decided even before the action happens - and that is precisely where skill in eve comes in. Real eve pvp skill is about picking the right targets and bringing the right tools for the job. Eve is a tactical game rather then a twitch game.

And yes if you play smart you can kill higher lvl sp toons with lower lvl sp toons. Happens all the time.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Adunh Slavy
#72 - 2013-12-09 22:50:53 UTC
You have the choice of, rock, scissors or paper. Making that choice, and the choices made by others as it relates to your choice, matters more than SP, and of course the fact that one piece of paper only covers one rock.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#73 - 2013-12-09 23:22:44 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

This game does not actually produce trolls. The trolls come down from the Ettenmoors to play Eve. Trolls usually don't come down from so far unless there are darker powers afoot.


Tell us more about your theories on personal defense against trolls and other undesirables.



Obviously, sir, you are not a patron of the classics.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#74 - 2013-12-10 01:34:52 UTC
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,




In the beginning I trained EVERYHTING and that was wrong.

The real "skill" involved is knowing what SP you need for what you want to do in game. I would say that new players should (or would have to) try everything they can within the limits of a trial account, even PVP, and then if they want to stay in the game, decide what they want to do so they can skill directly for it.

Fact is that a 5 million SP player specialized in the ship and modules they are flying can beat a 50 Million SP vet who has sporadic "jack of all trades" trading. A lot of people come from other MMOs treating the genius SP system like it were "leveling", and it's so counter to the idea and constraints of leveling that to treat total SP like leveling is to do it injustice (and a huge insult to whoever thought of the SP system).

Many a bitter vet has had some rude surprises from noobs who know how to arrange their skills and put them into the right places. I would say you even have to go as granular as picking what kind of ship you want to fly and what you want to do with it. If you want to fly say interceptor, that's going to be Frigate 5 of course. But you also have to decide what fit it will have, what kind of tank, and what modules that involves. You can be dangerous with that interceptor in a month. And then after that, "support skills", meaning you only get better with age.

Many will say it's cutting yourself short to limit your goals in such a rich game as this. And that's the problem. There are so many options and choices that you can get lost in them, and be lead astray. You can waste a lot of SP before finding your niche. For this, a lot of vets will advice that if you are not having any decisions on your Eve career, then train the support skills first (gunnery for example has lots of support skills) and then down the road you will get a feel for what you want to do and how to do it.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#75 - 2013-12-10 02:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,


Two players in equal ships with equal fits, one with more SP than the other, may fight 1000 times and the results trend towards say, 55% win for high SP dude.

However, a 1000 fights with two equal SP characters but totally different fits, one made to counter the other, will result in the better fit winning 90%+ of the time. The kiting double TD condor against a lone AC thrasher will win easily, providing you have 1) planned the fit and 2) planned the engagement so you are never in his range. Even if he has 100 million SP, once he gets caught in your trap it is just a matter of time.

You can never be sure of total victory be the unexpected sometimes happens and this requires flexibility. New ships decloak by you, mis clicking of modules, log off traps, you get baited by exotic fits, etc. If this happens you have new goals, either to kill the new ships or escape, etc, so you must draw on knowledge instantly to devise new plans in the moment.

Eve PVP is about lion vs gazelle, not lion vs lion. The best gazelle will still probably die to the worst lion if put in a room together. Make sure you know what ships you are a lion to, and what ships you are a gazelle to.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#76 - 2013-12-10 05:49:24 UTC
... once upon a time, this absolutely crazy guy told me it was about "fun". I mean, how insane is that. Shocked

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#77 - 2013-12-10 06:05:31 UTC
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.

The knowledge is the skill. It's about gaining experience so you can develop a playstyle that suits you.

Oh god.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#78 - 2013-12-10 08:28:23 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So would you say my understanding of EvE's PvP is correct then.

Knowledge Trumps all, while SP and fittings help. There really is no real SKILL involved in the PvP encounter. It has been decided before it even began, due to the right fittings and the RIGHT skills put in.


Keep in mind im talking very small scale PvP 1v1 to 5v5 type of fights. Not your 4k mass battles.



So you're saying that there's no skill in arranging the battlefield and choosing your encounters in such a way as to ensure your success?

What's your definition of "skill," anyway?

EVE isn't twitch-gameplay. The 1s server tick ensures that. If your definition of skill is based around quick reflexes, of course you won't see EVE as a skill based game. But then you're also excluding Chess from the realm of "games of skill."


Actually frigate fights are very twitchy, you need quick reflexes and micro management, but even more twitch decision-making. Skill in EVE is about being able to gather and process the relevant information and make the right calls, and execute the correct actions in the split seconds you are allowed.

You need to have a solid command of the game mechanics, ships and fittings, but also to be able to observe the battlefield, interpret the information streams and indicators, and react accordingly.

.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#79 - 2013-12-11 14:14:43 UTC
Roime wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So would you say my understanding of EvE's PvP is correct then.

Knowledge Trumps all, while SP and fittings help. There really is no real SKILL involved in the PvP encounter. It has been decided before it even began, due to the right fittings and the RIGHT skills put in.


Keep in mind im talking very small scale PvP 1v1 to 5v5 type of fights. Not your 4k mass battles.



So you're saying that there's no skill in arranging the battlefield and choosing your encounters in such a way as to ensure your success?

What's your definition of "skill," anyway?

EVE isn't twitch-gameplay. The 1s server tick ensures that. If your definition of skill is based around quick reflexes, of course you won't see EVE as a skill based game. But then you're also excluding Chess from the realm of "games of skill."


Actually frigate fights are very twitchy, you need quick reflexes and micro management, but even more twitch decision-making. Skill in EVE is about being able to gather and process the relevant information and make the right calls, and execute the correct actions in the split seconds you are allowed.

You need to have a solid command of the game mechanics, ships and fittings, but also to be able to observe the battlefield, interpret the information streams and indicators, and react accordingly.


Managing your marine deathball in Star Craft is twitchy, demanding quick reflexes and micromanagement. Flying a frigate is not, it is a intricate pattern that involves pointing the camera opposite to where certain doom awaits and click like a jolly mad person that is on ADHD medication.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.