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What if neutrals that hit a FW plex got limited engagement timers?
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NaK'Lin
Seamen Force
#61 - 2013-12-05 04:43:01 UTC  |  Edited by: NaK'Lin
Bienator II wrote:
so what? now he has a flag. A curious noob with a limited engagement timer. Where is the problem? He learned something new

Yip, and now poor little noob wanders back into hisec, and because he is a noob didn't realize he'd be a "suspect" to the whole universe for looking into a site. And now he loses his ship.
You don't even get suspect for opening someone else's can in hisec and looking into it. why on earth should you get suspect for entering a plex.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#62 - 2013-12-05 05:31:03 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
You should not become an outlaw for being in the militia.


No one has become an outlaw for being in the militia.

You become an outlaw by losing sec status; no one ever lost sec status just from joining the militia.
SB Rico
Sumo Wrestlers
#63 - 2013-12-05 07:11:11 UTC  |  Edited by: SB Rico
Hmm wouldn't a logical side effect of this proposed change be that one caldari pilot could open fire on another caldari pilot with no consequences I mean he could be an awoxer. Nice way to clear a plex and make all the isk for yourself.

OFC this would never happen cos all the people who play EVE are honorable types.

Or realistically you would simply create a way for your own side to gank you free of charge.

Actually I think on balance I support this as in reality it would be likely to make FW more dangerous for the idiot who suggested it.

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.
NaK'Lin
Seamen Force
#64 - 2013-12-05 08:12:34 UTC
SB Rico wrote:
Hmm wouldn't a logical side effect of this proposed change be that one caldari pilot could open fire on another caldari pilot with no consequences I mean he could be an awoxer. Nice way to clear a plex and make all the isk for yourself.

OFC this would never happen cos all the people who play EVE are honorable types.

Or realistically you would simply create a way for your own side to gank you free of charge.

Actually I think on balance I support this as in reality it would be likely to make FW more dangerous for the idiot who suggested it.

Reading, Rico...
He asked for neutrals / pirates to be flagged. His fellow Caldari pilots (assuming he is Caldari, ICBA to check now) that are also enrolled in FW wouldn't receive a flag.

Still a shitbad idea.
Oh, and Rico, get back at me in-game this weekend unless you're in some derpy WH. I've got some major fun lined up you might be interested in.
(^_^)
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#65 - 2013-12-05 16:08:01 UTC
NaK'Lin wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
so what? now he has a flag. A curious noob with a limited engagement timer. Where is the problem? He learned something new

Yip, and now poor little noob wanders back into hisec, and because he is a noob didn't realize he'd be a "suspect" .


you should read about crimewatch again. Since LETs and suspect timers are two entirely different things.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#66 - 2013-12-05 16:09:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Domanique Altares wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
You should not become an outlaw for being in the militia.


No one has become an outlaw for being in the militia.

You become an outlaw by losing sec status; no one ever lost sec status just from joining the militia.

so what you are saying is that you have to undock to play the game? Thats the whole point about the proposal. You lose sec status if you play in FW. Defend plexes from neutrals.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#67 - 2013-12-05 16:23:44 UTC
I don't understand why so many are getting mad about the proposal for a limited engagement timer on neutrals in a plex? Must be the current advantage of sometimes getting the jump on the fw player is so valuable to you. You must not have confidence in yourselves.

I used to care about sec status. I used to get tackled and start shooting with a disadvantage. Eventually you do learn to just shoot everything neutral in this situation. Or run and wait for the neutral to get bored sitting there with no possibility of making money in the plex and no pew. I'm currently sitting on a mountain of lp and tend not to care about a plex unless the other fellow in it is orange on my overview. So I laugh when a neutral tries to wait me out.

If what we all want is pew, and the limited timer would make that clear for all parties involved, where's the downside?

On a related note, the clone tags for curing -5 to -2 don't seem to be dropping enough. The price for them is too high compared to the tags for curing -8 to -5, imo. But then I'm a potential consumer so my opinion could be biased.Smile

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#68 - 2013-12-05 16:33:18 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
You should not become an outlaw for being in the militia.


No one has become an outlaw for being in the militia.

You become an outlaw by losing sec status; no one ever lost sec status just from joining the militia.

so what you are saying is that you have to undock to play the game? Thats the whole point about the proposal. You lose sec status if you play in FW. Defend plexes from neutrals.


I'm saying that you have to make the conscious decision to shoot at a neutral first. No one loses sec status from 'defending' themselves, either. The right to defend yourself is absolute in EVE, and implies that you are attacked first. If you determine to 'defend' a plex from a neutral, who by definition can do nothing to capture it, by firing on them preemptively, then you have committed a suspect action and deserve whatever flags and consequences you get from it.

Everyone keeps talking about 'defending themselves,' and 'defending plexes.' You're not defending anything if you're shooting first. You're the aggressor.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#69 - 2013-12-05 16:56:48 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
I don't understand why so many are getting mad about the proposal for a limited engagement timer on neutrals in a plex? Must be the current advantage of sometimes getting the jump on the fw player is so valuable to you. You must not have confidence in yourselves.

I used to care about sec status. I used to get tackled and start shooting with a disadvantage. Eventually you do learn to just shoot everything neutral in this situation. Or run and wait for the neutral to get bored sitting there with no possibility of making money in the plex and no pew. I'm currently sitting on a mountain of lp and tend not to care about a plex unless the other fellow in it is orange on my overview. So I laugh when a neutral tries to wait me out.

If what we all want is pew, and the limited timer would make that clear for all parties involved, where's the downside?

On a related note, the clone tags for curing -5 to -2 don't seem to be dropping enough. The price for them is too high compared to the tags for curing -8 to -5, imo. But then I'm a potential consumer so my opinion could be biased.Smile



The advantage belongs to the attentive individual already inside the deadspace pocket, and it belongs to them every day of the week. They see what's coming, and they have ample time to set up for it, or to leave if it's not a fight they want. Adding a flag changes no part of that.

I care about this change as proposed because this turns FW plexes into special snowflakes. As much as I don't care for PVE a lot of the time, missioners and explorers will still have to contend with sec status loss if they choose to defend what is 'theirs,' meantime, FW farmers can have their cake and eat it too. That's hardly in any way balanced.

This entire argument is predicated on trying to band-aid the sec satus system in the favor of a single group of lowsec players, over all others.

Using sec status loss as a reason to avoid fights is simply the lowsec equivalent of the ridiculous highsec argument against learning implants. Neither one actually prevents anyone from engaging in PvP, they simply introduce consequences that the risk averse do not want to pay.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#70 - 2013-12-05 18:10:58 UTC
... The easiest solution is no neutrals in plexes.

Simply give each ship not already aligned with a faction a pop-up radio broadcast demanding they declare their intentions. Militaries are somewhat uncompromising on allowing neutrals to run around their stuff. You select your allegiance at the gate, and it's good for 24 hours, or you cannot warp in. No more neutrals, problem solved.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#71 - 2013-12-05 18:18:11 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:

Simply give each ship not already aligned with a faction a pop-up radio broadcast demanding they declare their intentions.


That's cool. Will there be a radio button to declare that I've 'Come to try and kill whatever is inside?'
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#72 - 2013-12-05 18:19:59 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
... The easiest solution is no neutrals in plexes.

Simply give each ship not already aligned with a faction a pop-up radio broadcast demanding they declare their intentions. Militaries are somewhat uncompromising on allowing neutrals to run around their stuff. You select your allegiance at the gate, and it's good for 24 hours, or you cannot warp in. No more neutrals, problem solved.


If they were able to lock the gates, why would they allow opposing faction pilots through?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#73 - 2013-12-05 21:17:27 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
... The easiest solution is no neutrals in plexes.

Simply give each ship not already aligned with a faction a pop-up radio broadcast demanding they declare their intentions. Militaries are somewhat uncompromising on allowing neutrals to run around their stuff. You select your allegiance at the gate, and it's good for 24 hours, or you cannot warp in. No more neutrals, problem solved.


If they were able to lock the gates, why would they allow opposing faction pilots through?


Shame on you for getting ahead of their arguments, Ruby. That comes in the EVE: Agriculture 1.1 release.
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#74 - 2013-12-05 21:26:57 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
I don't understand why so many are getting mad about the proposal for a limited engagement timer on neutrals in a plex? Must be the current advantage of sometimes getting the jump on the fw player is so valuable to you. You must not have confidence in yourselves.

I used to care about sec status. I used to get tackled and start shooting with a disadvantage. Eventually you do learn to just shoot everything neutral in this situation. Or run and wait for the neutral to get bored sitting there with no possibility of making money in the plex and no pew. I'm currently sitting on a mountain of lp and tend not to care about a plex unless the other fellow in it is orange on my overview. So I laugh when a neutral tries to wait me out.

If what we all want is pew, and the limited timer would make that clear for all parties involved, where's the downside?

On a related note, the clone tags for curing -5 to -2 don't seem to be dropping enough. The price for them is too high compared to the tags for curing -8 to -5, imo. But then I'm a potential consumer so my opinion could be biased.Smile



What we are annoyed about is that those getting paid to fight are crying about it and want to have a guaranteed drop on us.

We don't get paid to fight and I don't wait for the other guy to shoot first either. I take my security hit and pew.

If you don't want to fight put stabs and a cloak on. If you want to shoot, man up and deal with it. You're getting paid to man up.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#75 - 2013-12-05 22:51:07 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
... The easiest solution is no neutrals in plexes.

Simply give each ship not already aligned with a faction a pop-up radio broadcast demanding they declare their intentions. Militaries are somewhat uncompromising on allowing neutrals to run around their stuff. You select your allegiance at the gate, and it's good for 24 hours, or you cannot warp in. No more neutrals, problem solved.


If they were able to lock the gates, why would they allow opposing faction pilots through?


Shame on you for getting ahead of their arguments, Ruby. That comes in the EVE: Agriculture 1.1 release.


Mmmm.... development of a specialized class freed from calorie production.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2013-12-05 23:15:11 UTC
answers tl;dr

to op, no the thing is the pirate should get a ss hit when he engages the fw person, but let the neutral get a "temp free for fw pilots" to shoot timer than yes ^^
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#77 - 2013-12-05 23:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Deacon Abox wrote:
If what we all want is pew, and the limited timer would make that clear for all parties involved, where's the downside?


The downside is that if you flag neutrals only for activating the gate you create a subtype of LS with different "rules" and mechanics. FW plex would become like free for all pockets or separate arenas with specific "rulesets".

Is not a small change like could appear.

One can like or dislike it. Perosnally I dislike cause make FW as something separated in respect of the low sec echo-system.

Beside is also unfair, as other pointed out we are the one getting rewarded (and let's face it, pretty well-rewarded) for capturing plexes and this change would simply switch an even situation (who aggress first get flagged) mechanically moving the burden of the security hit to neutral.
SB Rico
Sumo Wrestlers
#78 - 2013-12-06 05:05:04 UTC
The question of a solution like this above all else is where does it then stop?

As someone else did say if this were implemented for FW then why should it not apply to missions, anoms or other plexes? Why not belts?

If Low Sec then Logically High Sec as well...

So before you know it just through a logical escalation anyone warping into a high sec plex or even a belt gets flagged if someone else was there first.

Now whether you originally suggested this or not is irrelevant as there is no answer to the same argument being applied too all those situations. With the result being chaos; an innocent miner now dare not warp to a belt without risking death, exploration suddenly carries massive risk.

No matter how special you might think you are as an individual CCP should consider all those others this will potentially affect.

This is not about who gets paid to PVP imho, it is a potentially game-changing proposal in a very major, damaging way.

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.
Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
Central Omni Galactic Group
#79 - 2013-12-15 03:29:47 UTC
Nothing really to add, but I do agree that this is a fair solution to the problem :)
Shedao Penken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-12-15 06:34:49 UTC
I am surprised nobody said if they want to avoid sec status hits, why not just wardec every not fw corp, alliance, and any other decable organization. That way every pilot that enters is a war target that you can shoot with no repercussions.