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What if neutrals that hit a FW plex got limited engagement timers?
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Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-12-04 09:29:25 UTC
What has this mechanism got to do with FW plexes.
The same rules apply everywhere.
FW players should not need wrapping in cotton wool.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#42 - 2013-12-04 10:30:38 UTC
Lord X3n0s Aeon wrote:
But it's not. You're not just in low sec as a tourist, you're a member of empire militia. Different rules apply to you by default.




I meant it from a gameplay point of view more than as lore.

As a matter of fact is designed as low sec activity. I think is negative to have a game splittered and clustered with too many different subsets of rules and mechanics, like "yes this is low sec, but if you warp there is a different subtype os security space".

Also: when in a plex you're holding/gathering a resource; and getting resources in low-sec expose to such situations.

Faction militias recruits mercenaries ready to get their hands dirty in a war they cannot fight openly. Dealing with some troubles with Concord, occasional neutral causalities and consequences is part the job you're paid for. If they could do all clean and legal they'd use the faction navy instead. :)
Naomi Anthar
#43 - 2013-12-04 12:24:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Anthar
RubyPorto wrote:
Lord X3n0s Aeon wrote:
Justification: FW is supposed to be a warzone, and plexes are secluded military bases inside that warzone. Why should capsuleers that sign up to defend these plexes take a sec hit for doing exactly what their factions have asked them to do?


Which military officially encourages intentionally shooting civilians? Exactly.


Same civilans entering military complex with combat vehicle and lots of guns ? Every single military not only encourages but absolutely demands thier soldiers to open fire in that case.

Way to fail at logic and knowledge ... even IRL. Thats how soldier must react. If he will hesitate he will die to that "civilian".
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#44 - 2013-12-04 15:43:05 UTC
Lord X3n0s Aeon wrote:
This is for a military base, and you somehow think a warzone would be less strict?

Might I add, you're NOT a civilian warping in to a plex (your pod can't enter).

You're an unknown jumping into a military installation wielding military-grade weapons and defenses.

Try gate-crashing a base in Iraq in a tank. Good luck.


In many warzones, Civilians go armed in order to protect themselves. The military forces involved are not justified in shooting civilians simply because they're armed. The status of civilian is not dependent on armament.

No, you're a civilian walking onto a battlefield. Dangerous, sure, but not sufficient to damage your status as a civilian.

If the plexes had locked gates, that would be a valid comparison. They do not, so it is not.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jureth22
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-12-04 15:45:36 UTC
neutrals that come into fw plexes generaly look for fights.post is irelevant.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#46 - 2013-12-04 15:56:21 UTC
I agree with OP, militia members defending a military complex should not be penalized for doing their duty and defending themselves.

When they are attacking a plex, they also have an NPC ship (or two) to deal with on top of neutrals threatening them, putting them at a disadvantage. Unauthorized ships should be flagged suspect for breaching military gates, and I'd also consider a minor standings loss towards the faction. This is the sandbox solution, if you don't want to go suspect and lose standings, don't enter a restricted area, or enroll.


.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#47 - 2013-12-04 16:04:06 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Lord X3n0s Aeon wrote:
But it's not. You're not just in low sec as a tourist, you're a member of empire militia. Different rules apply to you by default.




I meant it from a gameplay point of view more than as lore.

As a matter of fact is designed as low sec activity. I think is negative to have a game splittered and clustered with too many different subsets of rules and mechanics, like "yes this is low sec, but if you warp there is a different subtype os security space".

Also: when in a plex you're holding/gathering a resource; and getting resources in low-sec expose to such situations.

Faction militias recruits mercenaries ready to get their hands dirty in a war they cannot fight openly. Dealing with some troubles with Concord, occasional neutral causalities and consequences is part the job you're paid for. If they could do all clean and legal they'd use the faction navy instead. :)



FW complexes aren't a normal, open lowsec resource, non-militia pilots don't gain anything from completing one. Rules of engagement already vary depending on relative personal security statuses and whether a person is in militia or not.

.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#48 - 2013-12-04 17:08:07 UTC
Roime wrote:
FW complexes aren't a normal, open lowsec resource, non-militia pilots don't gain anything from completing one. Rules of engagement already vary depending on relative personal security statuses and whether a person is in militia or not.


Is the same. If you warp in a mission site the fact that the missioner is killing Angels criminals and doing a service for the Republic is not taken in any count security wise. The first agressing gets the flag. The reward you get for FW plexes is not related to the engagments.


But my point is more in term of gameplay: I don't see what's the benefit for the general gameplay.
If you flag the neutral as suspect only for activating the gate he will be killable with no consequences also by other neutrals (or neutral alts). Basically you turning the FW plexes in a separate subtype of LS istances with specific rules beyond the FW ones, a random free for all area.

I think this is not healthy for the gameplay and not sandboxy, FW are already borderline with the ship limitations to activate the gates; so escalating this separation more, for what benefit?



Mag's
Azn Empire
#49 - 2013-12-04 17:19:14 UTC
Lord X3n0s Aeon wrote:


#3 "Sec status is dumb anyways, and you're dumb for caring"

-fine, but this isn't a debate about the merits of sec status/being able to enter hi-sec. The question is "why is it logical to penalize players for engaging in combat inside a milita compound?" Because sec status hits are just that, a *penalty*.
I hate RL comparisons, but I feel that's what you are hinting at here. So are you saying people are not penalised in real life, for doing the same? I think you'll find they are.

It's all rather simple. If you shoot first without the rights to do so, you pay the cost.

Oh and sec status rocks at -10, as it's fun in game.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#50 - 2013-12-04 20:41:50 UTC
Sure bro great idea!

Try these on for size:

1. Pirates should be paid in bounties for shooting you.

2. Pirates should gain standing with the other faction for shooting you.

3. FW pilots that stab or cloak their ship should be shot for cowardice by gate guns if they try and activate the gate.

O wait, Pirates PAY for the privilege to shoot you? We don't get PAID handsomely for being shot at? And you want to cry that you take a sec hit for shooting us first?

Tell you what: Don't come to my home system and think you are gonna sit in your plex and make isk changing the SOV of our system without me "keeping it real for ya..." to keep our taxes from going up.

You nubs cost us time/isk.

XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#51 - 2013-12-04 21:05:01 UTC
Lord X3n0s Aeon wrote:
Proposed solution: upon activation of a FW gate limited engagement (or some other type of timer, but one that works like a LE timer) is created between the non-FW players that activate the gate and anyone inside the PLEX. This allows milita to engage hostiles just like they were enemy militia.


A reasonable idea, but I don't know if it's worth the dev time. There's other things in Faction Warfare I'd rather see addressed first.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#52 - 2013-12-04 21:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Dr Sraggles wrote:
Tell you what: Don't come to my home system and think you are gonna sit in your plex and make isk changing the SOV of our system without me "keeping it real for ya..." to keep our taxes from going up. You nubs cost us time/isk.

That's funny. I was wondering if we could start charging you low-sec folk a gate rental fee based on the amount of time you spend loitering on gates. Would it make sense by the hour or is a daily rate more amicable?

Oh, and btw - it's not your "system". It's Empire space - you're merely tourists. Low-sec actions consist of logging on in a station, waiting for local to pickup, undocking - proceeding to the nearest gate or plex to camp for hours on end - then returning back to the station. Wash, rinse, repeat… Come to think of it, we should probably start charging you rent while you loiter at our stations as well.
Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#53 - 2013-12-04 21:45:14 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:
Tell you what: Don't come to my home system and think you are gonna sit in your plex and make isk changing the SOV of our system without me "keeping it real for ya..." to keep our taxes from going up. You nubs cost us time/isk.

That's funny. I was wondering if we could start charging you low-sec folk a gate rental fee based on the amount of time you spend loitering on gates. Would it make sense by the hour or is a daily rate more amicable?

Oh, and btw - it's not your "system". It's Empire space - you're merely tourists. Low-sec actions consist of logging on in a station, waiting for local to pickup, undocking - proceeding to the nearest gate or plex to camp for hours on end - then returning back to the station. Wash, rinse, repeat… Come to think of it, we should probably start charging you rent while you loiter at our stations as well.
Lol


*psst* Arthur....you do charge us rent in the form of Corp taxes on our home office and in the security hit we take when we shoot first (that we don't cry about).

Sure, there is no SOV "ownership" by a corp of a low sec system. But our taxes are dependent on the FW Sov and I will shoot those trying to change it from Caldari to Gallente etc. at my cost.


Damn Arthur, you are making it even more fun to camp gates and be a Pirate :).
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#54 - 2013-12-04 22:17:00 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:
*psst* Arthur....you do charge us rent in the form of Corp taxes on our home office and in the security hit we take when we shoot first (that we don't cry about).

Sure, there is no SOV "ownership" by a corp of a low sec system. But our taxes are dependent on the FW Sov and I will shoot those trying to change it from Caldari to Gallente etc. at my cost.

Damn Arthur, you are making it even more fun to camp gates and be a Pirate :).

I thought Pirates didn't take sides? Lol
Since when does your loyalty swing past the mighty ISK? Be careful what you wish for: if it wasn't for FW, I suspect low-sec would be a veritable ghost town.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#55 - 2013-12-04 23:37:43 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
if it wasn't for FW, I suspect low-sec would be a veritable ghost town.


Can we have that for Christmas? Never seeing another dirtbag farmer in my home system would be fantastic.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#56 - 2013-12-05 01:40:10 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Can we have that for Christmas? Never seeing another dirtbag farmer in my home system would be fantastic.

Ask and ye shall receive...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#57 - 2013-12-05 01:45:43 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:
*psst* Arthur....you do charge us rent in the form of Corp taxes on our home office and in the security hit we take when we shoot first (that we don't cry about).

Sure, there is no SOV "ownership" by a corp of a low sec system. But our taxes are dependent on the FW Sov and I will shoot those trying to change it from Caldari to Gallente etc. at my cost.

Damn Arthur, you are making it even more fun to camp gates and be a Pirate :).

I thought Pirates didn't take sides? Lol
Since when does your loyalty swing past the mighty ISK? Be careful what you wish for: if it wasn't for FW, I suspect low-sec would be a veritable ghost town.


We don't take sides Smile .

I want to get paid bounties by both sides P.

If there was no FW then Low Sec *would* have less newbies that seemed to join TEST yesterday for us to farm to be sure...But there are only so many stabbed noob ships that you can wtfpwn with dual webs for breakfast.

But let us be clear. I don't care one bit about FW other than how it affects our taxes. I just chimed in because I was bored enough to do so and don't think I should be insta-flagged to be pointed by a kiting frig as soon as I come to say hello with no consequence for a guy getting paid to fight.

I *pay* for the privilege of pvp. I don't see why those who are *paid* to do so should complain.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#58 - 2013-12-05 02:18:55 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:

I *pay* for the privilege of pvp. I don't see why those who are *paid* to do so should complain.

it has nothing to do with payment. Its just that it doesn't make sense. You should not become an outlaw for being in the militia. thats it. Neutrals don't enter and say hello as you said, they enter to get a fight. They should get a fight but the guy in FW shouldn't drop to outlaw within a month of FW for doing his job.

If you think "payment" is too much, its an entire different topic. I for myself don't make isk with FW. So i am kinda neutral regarding this.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
NaK'Lin
Seamen Force
#59 - 2013-12-05 04:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: NaK'Lin
Bienator II wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:

I *pay* for the privilege of pvp. I don't see why those who are *paid* to do so should complain.

it has nothing to do with payment. Its just that it doesn't make sense. You should not become an outlaw for being in the militia. thats it. Neutrals don't enter and say hello as you said, they enter to get a fight. They should get a fight but the guy in FW shouldn't drop to outlaw within a month of FW for doing his job.

If you think "payment" is too much, its an entire different topic. I for myself don't make isk with FW. So i am kinda neutral regarding this.

You are generalizing. you see, you CAN NOT prove that every neutral appearing in a plex is going there to kill a FW dude. Maybe its a nub who is curious.
Yet pre-emptively are labeling them because of your generalization. FW don't get penalized to fight other FW dudes. They get penalized for doing anything other than defending themselves against a neutral entity.
Again, the penalization you get if he also shoots you is TINY TINY TINY TINY and almost non-existant, for heaven's sake, you WON'T be an outlaw.

However, flagging people for 5-15 minutes just because they so much as entered a FW plex and making them prone to attacks for all that time is wrong.

By your logic it would true that "every black person that walks into a convenience store is going to rob it, hence other customers and/or the owner should be allowed to shoot him/her without criminal consequences because, you know, if Mr. Black can get into position and pull his gun, then it's too late".

I don't care if 999/1000 neutral will shoot you first. i care about the ONE that doesn't.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#60 - 2013-12-05 04:32:19 UTC
NaK'Lin wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:

I *pay* for the privilege of pvp. I don't see why those who are *paid* to do so should complain.

it has nothing to do with payment. Its just that it doesn't make sense. You should not become an outlaw for being in the militia. thats it. Neutrals don't enter and say hello as you said, they enter to get a fight. They should get a fight but the guy in FW shouldn't drop to outlaw within a month of FW for doing his job.

If you think "payment" is too much, its an entire different topic. I for myself don't make isk with FW. So i am kinda neutral regarding this.

You are generalizing. you see, you CAN NOT prove that every neutral appearing in a plex is going there to kill a FW dude. Maybe its a nub who is curious.

so what? now he has a flag. A curious noob with a limited engagement timer. Where is the problem? He learned something new

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value