These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1581 - 2013-12-20 21:20:09 UTC
Roy Alleyne wrote:

I agree, there is no reason I can think of in which the Nestor would be preferable to a logistics cruiser other than as bait.


My thoughts exactly. And obvious bait, like a Kronos in a wormhole, is very, very obvious.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1582 - 2013-12-20 21:26:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Roy Alleyne
supernova ranger wrote:
Wheres the shuttle bay?

The diagram shows it but I don't see a maintenance bay in the specs...

Can this ship warp while cloaked and use black ops bridges/ jump itself?


I invite you to read any one of the previous 79 pages of this thread. All of which answer your questions and more.
XAJIRBA Darth
All Your Wrecks Are Bolong To Sith
#1583 - 2013-12-20 22:23:38 UTC
Puting "Domi vs Nestor" and "exploration on BS - lol" arguments aside I got a small idea to share.

Since this ship is focused for WH and has a mass bonus + logistics bonus. Most WH dudes that are potential targets to Nestors RR are Cruisers and Strategic Cruisers. Why dont you just give him cruiser-hull warpspeed so he can catch up with his buddies speed. It will partially compensate the absence of Covert Cloak and buff the chances for this shiny boat to survive (not only in WHs but in any hostile area).

On other hand lower mass and higher warpspeed sounds natural from physics point of view :P
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1584 - 2013-12-20 22:55:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
supernova ranger wrote:
Wheres the shuttle bay?
The diagram shows it but I don't see a maintenance bay in the specs…

Under the ship. What purpose does it serve? Absolutely nothing aside from an interesting footnote. Interesting trivia fact: apparently the SoE ships were designed as shield ships from an art perspective.

And wow… Upwards of $1.8-billion for one of these things? And it can apparently get you banned for RR'ing the sentry drones? Maybe that's what the shuttle is for: a free "get out of jail free" card for your first perma-ban.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1585 - 2013-12-20 23:09:59 UTC
Question on the issues with RR, is it just the range that makes it unattractive for that purpose or something else? BS mobility? Cap considerations?
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1586 - 2013-12-20 23:46:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Question on the issues with RR, is it just the range that makes it unattractive for that purpose or something else? BS mobility? Cap considerations?


If you mean for a pure RR-bs fleet, the fact that it is a Domi without a rangebonus on the drones makes it unattractive and uninspired. Doubling the RR range and effectively add a repper to this "Domi" is not a gamechanger.

If you mean as pure Logistic replacement, mobility and signature radius and scan resolution plays a big role for a BS hull being nonsensical for Logistics in the first place. Add to that much less range for the same rep amount than the cruiser and more mass in case of wormholes and you have your answear. And no, doing dps with sentries does not offset the drawbacks in my eyes. Making 3 meta reppers (same repamount as T2 repper 4/2 guardian) capstable requires 5 capreacharger and gimps drone dps severly anyway. Or gimps the the tank too much for PVP situations since it needs much more EHP than the Guardian because of the huge signature.

.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1587 - 2013-12-21 00:09:33 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Question on the issues with RR, is it just the range that makes it unattractive for that purpose or something else? BS mobility? Cap considerations?


If you mean for a pure RR-bs fleet, the fact that it is a Domi without a rangebonus on the drones makes it unattractive and uninspired. Doubling the RR range and effectively add a repper to this "Domi" is not a gamechanger.

If you mean as pure Logistic replacement, mobility and signature radius and scan resolution plays a big role for a BS hull being nonsensical for Logistics in the first place. Add to that much less range for the same rep amount than the cruiser and more mass in case of wormholes and you have your answear. And no, doing dps with sentries does not offset the drawbacks in my eyes. Making 3 meta reppers (same repamount as T2 repper 4/2 guardian) capstable requires 5 capreacharger and gimps drone dps severly anyway. Or gimps the the tank too much for PVP situations since it needs much more EHP than the Guardian because of the huge signature.

I was mainly looking at the implications of spider tanking a group of these, in which you do bring up a good point with the domi's bonuses, though, and not being sure here is why I ask, I would have thought there would be some novelty in the idea of the fact that with 4 reps this ship outreps a T2 logistics ship, granted at much lower range, leaving 3 highs open for other things. I'll grant it's not a "gamechanger" in itself, but fundamentally doesn't seem like a bad idea, offensive inferiority to the Domi aside.
Celia Therone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1588 - 2013-12-21 03:32:13 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Average ISK/LP 3,019 which results in...

Nestor Cost: 600,000 LP and 150,000,000 ISK
Giving an estimated price of 1,811,484,877 ISK

Formula is: ISK/LP = (Jita Price - ISK Cost)/LP Cost

Cosidering that the Stratios and Astero are not adding much to the average value, the Nestor is going to be one pricey faction ship indeed.

There's something off with this math, I think. Assuming that the 3,019 isk/lp is right then...

Cost from LP = 3019 * 600,000 = 1,811,400,000
Isk Cost = 150,000,000
Build Cost = ~180,000,000 (Unknown at this point but that's roughly a battleship's build cost, the Stratios seem to be slightly above a Vexor's build cost for example.)

Market Value of Nestor = ~2,141,400,000

I would expect SoE LP to come down somewhat before the Nestor releases then jump back up again to higher than they are now before retreating again.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1589 - 2013-12-21 04:43:29 UTC
It's a *really* expensive kitchen appliance... Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1590 - 2013-12-21 08:59:54 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Question on the issues with RR, is it just the range that makes it unattractive for that purpose or something else? BS mobility? Cap considerations?


If you mean for a pure RR-bs fleet, the fact that it is a Domi without a rangebonus on the drones makes it unattractive and uninspired. Doubling the RR range and effectively add a repper to this "Domi" is not a gamechanger.

If you mean as pure Logistic replacement, mobility and signature radius and scan resolution plays a big role for a BS hull being nonsensical for Logistics in the first place. Add to that much less range for the same rep amount than the cruiser and more mass in case of wormholes and you have your answear. And no, doing dps with sentries does not offset the drawbacks in my eyes. Making 3 meta reppers (same repamount as T2 repper 4/2 guardian) capstable requires 5 capreacharger and gimps drone dps severly anyway. Or gimps the the tank too much for PVP situations since it needs much more EHP than the Guardian because of the huge signature.

I was mainly looking at the implications of spider tanking a group of these, in which you do bring up a good point with the domi's bonuses, though, and not being sure here is why I ask, I would have thought there would be some novelty in the idea of the fact that with 4 reps this ship outreps a T2 logistics ship, granted at much lower range, leaving 3 highs open for other things. I'll grant it's not a "gamechanger" in itself, but fundamentally doesn't seem like a bad idea, offensive inferiority to the Domi aside.


That is not going to happen. If you want the same damage the Domi has, you need 4 energy transfers and 2 reps (same as domi, only you effectively have 3 reps). But without the bonus of the Domi, the application is so bad that I predict that no one is going to bother with it.

I don't say it should get the bonus. My idea for the Nestor is quite different anyway.

.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1591 - 2013-12-21 10:37:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
Celia Therone wrote:
Jowen Datloran wrote:
...

There's something off with this math, I think. Assuming that the 3,019 isk/lp is right then...

Cost from LP = 3019 * 600,000 = 1,811,400,000
Isk Cost = 150,000,000
Build Cost = ~180,000,000 (Unknown at this point but that's roughly a battleship's build cost, the Stratios seem to be slightly above a Vexor's build cost for example.)

Market Value of Nestor = ~2,141,400,000

I would expect SoE LP to come down somewhat before the Nestor releases then jump back up again to higher than they are now before retreating again.

I know it is off, but as I did not want to bother with adding in material costs (minerals, implants and other items) on the existing LP store items, I figured I would skip it too for the cost of the Nestor.

Though all in all, I expect the (minimum) sale price to be around 2b ISK.

Of course many people are collecting SoE LP store points these days, but is it enough to crash the market on all SoE store exclusive items? The probe launchers and probes have been around for a long time and are still giving a high ISK/LP ratio, so I doubt it.

My prediction of the price curve will be extremely high prices the first couple of weeks (3-4b), then after a month or so a drop to a bit below 2b. Then people get tired of doing SoE missions, the novelty wear off and the price settles around 2.1b.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1592 - 2013-12-21 11:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Roy Alleyne
Savira Terrant wrote:


That is not going to happen. If you want the same damage the Domi has, you need 4 energy transfers and 2 reps (same as domi, only you effectively have 3 reps). But without the bonus of the Domi, the application is so bad that I predict that no one is going to bother with it.

I don't say it should get the bonus. My idea for the Nestor is quite different anyway.


Your comment has sparked a fundamental question that has no good answer at this point. What does Rise and his team envision the Nestor doing as opposed to what it can actually do. Yes, he has stated that they want a multipurpose hull that is ok at a lot of things. The brilliancy of this in the Stratios and Astero is that the different ok things it does combine to do a job exceedingly well. No other single hulls have the capacity for long range exploration (both relic/data sites and combat sites) at the same level as SoE hulls do. With the Nestor, nobody on the forum so far has been able to recommend a legitimate use for the ship. At most you have suggestions for extremely specialized roles such as RR when you need that RR to be on the front line for some reason or for running ghost sites near home. The problem is that those jobs can be done better by other ships specialized for those roles. The Nestor needs to follow the trend of the SoE. Good at a few different things that come together to accomplish a job you would normally need multiple ships to carry out. That is not suggesting that a BS should be considered for solo exploration, it's a fleet flag ship no matter what way you look at it. The problem is it lacks the abilities to warent it over any other flagship in it's class.
Calasanthra
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#1593 - 2013-12-21 11:58:59 UTC
[quote=Roy Alleyne][quote=Savira Terrant]

Good at a few different things that come together to accomplish a job you would normally need multiple ships to carry out. quote]

exactly.
Famine Kaftar
Singularity Science and Industry
#1594 - 2013-12-21 15:26:48 UTC
Calasanthra wrote:
Roy Alleyne wrote:
[quote=Savira Terrant]

Good at a few different things that come together to accomplish a job you would normally need multiple ships to carry out.


exactly.


It also has half the mass of a normal battleship. If nothing else the Nestor might find a niche in wormhole space PVE.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1595 - 2013-12-21 17:58:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Calasanthra wrote:


Good at a few different things that come together to accomplish a job you would normally need multiple ships to carry out. quote]

exactly.


I don't understand which you mean. Do you think it s the way described or should it be?
I'd have to disagree with the former.

Famine Kaftar wrote:

It also has half the mass of a normal battleship. If nothing else the Nestor might find a niche in wormhole space PVE.


No, it won't as it is. A few might die the first few months, until everyone will have realised there are better options.

.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1596 - 2013-12-21 18:29:20 UTC
Famine Kaftar wrote:
Calasanthra wrote:
Roy Alleyne wrote:
[quote=Savira Terrant]

Good at a few different things that come together to accomplish a job you would normally need multiple ships to carry out.


exactly.


It also has half the mass of a normal battleship. If nothing else the Nestor might find a niche in wormhole space PVE.


To imagine that there is such a thing as ' wormhole pve' is to fundamentally misunderstand wormhole space. In wormhole space there are predators, prey and predators pretending to be prey.

People who think they are doing pve are prey. It takes them a while to realise it. once they do, they do one of two things: leave wormhole space or become predators.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Selnix
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#1597 - 2013-12-21 18:52:54 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
The 100 Role Bonus Nestor

So far we have...

-50% cap usage of salvagers.
+50% target painter falloff.
+10 to drone sensor strength.
+25% to firework rate of fire.
-100% to self-inflicted damage.
+1/2 of a point to warp strength.
+25% to cycle time of stasis webs
-100% trolling comments in local when you get ganked.
+100% to ship scanner range.

Specialized 10000 m3 exotic dancer hold
Can Fit Snowball De-melter.
Can Fit Capital Mods (but does not have the power to online them).
Golden killmail (When the Nestor dies its killmail is automatically posted as an item on the login news screen.)

I say we can reach 100 before Rise comments again.



Model scale reduced by 75% per level of Neurotoxin Control, thus allowing the skilled drug consumer to be less offended by the ugliness.
Zurrdok
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1598 - 2013-12-21 19:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Zurrdok
50% bonus to remote armor repairer amount
100% bonus to remote armor repairer range
Changed to +2 DRONES in space (7 in total)
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1599 - 2013-12-21 19:28:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Roy Alleyne
Savira Terrant wrote:
Calasanthra wrote:


Good at a few different things that come together to accomplish a job you would normally need multiple ships to carry out. quote]

exactly.


I don't understand which you mean. Do you think it s the way described or should it be?
I'd have to disagree with the former.


You know my stance, Savira, I want it to gain a cloaked speed bonus and/or a fitting service + fleet hanger so exploration fleets have a reason to want this ship to tag along. A Jump Drive would be flashy and required for Kspace exploration but useless in wh space. I also think that both the probing bonus and virus strength are wasted on a BS hull, even if the virus strength could be used in ghost sites. For those who don't but want to you can find my detailed arguments for and against this view in the thread as well as many very good arguments for improvements made by others.

Mournful Conciousness wrote:


To imagine that there is such a thing as ' wormhole pve' is to fundamentally misunderstand wormhole space. In wormhole space there are predators, prey and predators pretending to be prey.

People who think they are doing pve are prey. It takes them a while to realise it. once they do, they do one of two things: leave wormhole space or become predators.


I couldn't have said it better myself, mind if I put that in my profile? Twisted
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1600 - 2013-12-21 19:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Roy Alleyne
Whoops, double post Lol