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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2381 - 2014-03-06 00:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Steph Livingston wrote:
I was trying to figure out why people feel the Nestor absolutely needs a covert ops cloak in the other Nestor thread and, I admit, I still don't get it.



I know these threads have got gigantic, which is a good thing as it shows people are really interested and want this ship to mean something, but explainations get lost in this.

I would like to explain again why a covert cloak is not just desirable, but essential for this ship to operate in wormhole space, and why it is fatally flawed without one.

Firstly, a battleship without a bonus to remove the targeting delay after decloaking is actually the least powerful implementation of the covert ops cloak, It can suprise nothing, it takes so long to lock, anything can simply warp away.

Regarding the argument it can arrive and assign drones, any drone ship can do this, the cloak adds nothing. And if it is assigning drones to other ships THEY are your problem! And you certainly know they are there.

Now the reason why it is essential.
The nearest analogy of cloaked ships in a wormhole is a second world war German Wolfpack. It travelled out of sight and attacked it's prey or crept unseen past defenders to reach it's hunting area.

They COULD NOT travel with a logistics boat trailing them on the surface as it betrayed the fleet leading to the destruction of the fleet.

The same applies to wormholes, there is no point a fleet of 5 cloaked tengus travelling across 4 WH systems to get to good sleeper sites or to prepare to attack a POS or mining fleet, if they are accompanied with an uncloaked, Great White Whale screaming on D Scan as it crawls across the system, HERE WE ARE KILL US!!!

So limited to home or +1 system only. What use is that!
So fatally flawed will never find a home in WH space if incapable of warping cloaked.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2382 - 2014-03-06 01:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Now the reason why it is essential.

Too bad these rational pleas keep falling on deaf ears...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2383 - 2014-03-06 01:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Now the reason why it is essential.

Too bad these legitimate please keep falling on deaf ears...



The problem is those who do not live in wormholes do not understand the mechanics and understand that it simply is ridiculous to use it at all, without a covert ops cloak, and also do not realise that a battleship with a covert ops cloak is the LEAST powerful implementation of the technology, Far far more effective in combat terms when used on cruiser class or smaller,
Now a covert ops cloak on a HIC is another matter, then they should be really afraid.

I'd pay a billion for THAT!

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2384 - 2014-03-06 03:05:49 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I'd pay a billion for THAT!

Everyone would pay good money for ships that don't suck.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2385 - 2014-03-06 06:49:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
One thing I don't get with the Nestor: It is the slowest (velocity) battleship with the worst inertia, yet it has the lightest mass and the fastest warp speed at 2.5 AU/s. These seem at odds with each other...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2386 - 2014-03-06 09:03:17 UTC
That 2.5 AU/s is also a bit odd. With the lack of a cloak, one bonus that might have made the ship practical to use is a high warp speed, like 8 AU/s.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2387 - 2014-03-06 09:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
One thing I don't get with the Nestor: It is the slowest (velocity) battleship with the worst inertia, yet it has the lightest mass and the fastest warp speed at 2.5 AU/s. These seem at odds with each other...


I think that it might have been previously designed by someone else, and brought back to life, unfortunately the stats seem to have been amended by someone who is overly concerned with the power of large ships, and applied restrictions to "dial it back".

Of course the opposite might also be true, and they are trying to blow life into a more conservative design .

Personally, i feel they are still being too cautious, while I imagine the meta of how the dominix was used has concerned them, that can always happen, there really is no way to predict, how things will be used and abused, there's just too many possibilities. Over cautious ship balance before launch just leads to dull, uninspired, and undesirable ships.

I agree it really does feel like manoeuvring a large white whale, you would expect it to feel more like a large battlecruiser,and the lightest mass, which would make it useful in wormholes, is unfortunately, like wheels on a fish, because without being able to warp cloaked it will never live there.
So the idea, of wherever it was designed for, has apparently been lost in time, I like the astero and Stratios, even though the stratios is a little confused, and i think it has lost some of it's original purity of concept it is still a good ship, but the Nestor is just plain lost.

So where to go from here?

I suggest, just for the moment CCP forget the word battleship, and look at what this ship would need to thrive and be desired in a wormhole environment.

It is lovely to have the option of other ships other than T3s.

So keep the low mass and make speed and inertia match.
Give logistics bonuses to shield cap and armor range and quantity with bonuses that take account of the ships it will be supporting.
The reason for both shield and armor bonuses is that different wormholes have different environments, it may support a shield fleet in one and an armor fleet in the next, where that is the only sensible choice due to conditions.

The ability to warp cloaked is as important to this ship as a hatch is to a submarine. Provide it as a base stat. And thereby avoid all the covert ops preconceptions.


Improve sensor strength.

Sleepers are a drones worst nightmare, either move the balance of damage to a fewer number of lasers with damage boosts, to allow logistics and damage, or massively boost the survive-ability of the mobile drones,
sentries are not ideal here. A Possible good idea would be for it to be designed to field "sisters" medium drones that have the best assets of all sizes, heavy's damage and strength , with light's speed, tracking and sig and shield recharge. Only can be flown by sisters ships, or build the bonuses into the ship.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2388 - 2014-03-06 11:04:48 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I agree it really does feel like manoeuvring a large white whale, you would expect it to feel more like a large battlecruiser,and the lightest mass, which would make it useful in wormholes, is unfortunately, like wheels on a fish, because without being able to warp cloaked it will never live there.

Completely lost it with the 'wheels on a fish' analogy. Lol

Quote:
So the idea, of wherever it was designed for, has apparently been lost in time, I like the astero and Stratios, even though the stratios is a little confused, and i think it has lost some of it's original purity of concept it is still a good ship, but the Nestor is just plain lost.

I haven't looked at the Astero and Stratios in detail to see where they stand in terms of velocity and inertia, but I would be really surprised if they fell near the bottom of the pack… The higher warp speed on the Nestor is effectively neutered by the abysmal inertia and align time. Velocity is one thing, but the inertia is just plain bizarre. How something as immense as a Vindicator could be substantially more maneuverable is beyond me - especially considering the low mass of the Nestor.

Quote:
So where to go from here?

Honestly? Scrap it and start over. You can't improve something that's fundamentally broken at the core. If the Nestor was fast and agile or featured a Covert Ops cloak - one could overlook the "glass cannon" aspect in terms of severe fitting limitations (low slots, CPU and grid), but as it currently stands - it's not only a "white whale" - it's a beached one at that.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2389 - 2014-03-06 12:56:24 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Now a covert ops cloak on a HIC is another matter, then they should be really afraid.


Allow me to introduce you to my friend, the stratios...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Lilliana Stelles
#2390 - 2014-03-06 13:05:04 UTC
The Nestor seems to have god awful powergrid and capacitor for what it's intended to do. Exactly what sort of lasers are you expected to put on it? You'd think a faction battleship would be able to run four or five tachyons but nope.

Not a forum alt. 

Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
#2391 - 2014-03-06 15:03:43 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
The Nestor seems to have god awful powergrid and capacitor for what it's intended to do. Exactly what sort of lasers are you expected to put on it? You'd think a faction battleship would be able to run four or five tachyons but nope.


I tried to fit a laser build at one point but gave up on it after a few tries, just like my attempt at making a hacking/analyzing fit. Since the Nestor doesn't have any speed or manuverability, it has almost no way to dictate distance and take advantage of the optimal range bonus. You could use a MJD but you're limited by the long cooldown, it's barely worth the effort. I've brought up this weakness before, but the ship has bigger issues elsewhere.

You have other options anyways, during my test builds I've been using hybrid drone/logistics builds. They offer more dynamic options in combat, and don't strain the cap you could be using to RR with.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2392 - 2014-03-06 20:44:05 UTC
Steph Livingston wrote:
I tried to fit a laser build at one point but gave up on it after a few tries, just like my attempt at making a hacking/analyzing fit. Since the Nestor doesn't have any speed or manuverability, it has almost no way to dictate distance and take advantage of the optimal range bonus. You could use a MJD but you're limited by the long cooldown, it's barely worth the effort. I've brought up this weakness before, but the ship has bigger issues elsewhere.

You have other options anyways, during my test builds I've been using hybrid drone/logistics builds. They offer more dynamic options in combat, and don't strain the cap you could be using to RR with.

Yes, but when one's Nestor build sucks even on paper...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#2393 - 2014-03-06 23:02:26 UTC
This pirate Faction Battleship is an extremely expensive ship that is not very easy to acquire even through LPs.

That makes this ship something that should be special, however I do feel it does lack a great purpose for it to be used.

I would like to propose something special for this and possible future pirate faction Battleships by giving them something more.


Introduce: Integrated Ship Module


What does the ISM mean ?

For Instance when it concerns the SOE Nestor, that battleship is meant for exploration, and through eve lore, should have a high end sensor package that should out scan non pirate faction battleships.

This is already somewhat shown in the ships bonuses:
50% bonus to Core and Combat Scanner Probe strength
10+ bonus to Relic and Data Analyzer virus strength

HOWEVER, I would like to see an ISM for the Nestor to be a Cargo Scanner and / or Ship Scanner that does not cost a module slot !

This ISM is a Utility module only that even under normal fitting requirements would have used very low CPU or Powergrid and Cap.

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2394 - 2014-03-07 00:37:52 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Now a covert ops cloak on a HIC is another matter, then they should be really afraid.


Allow me to introduce you to my friend, the stratios...

Yup they made a nice ship there, the astero is also a great example of getting it right, and yes the real power of a covert ops cloak lies with exactly this type of ship.
On a battleship, it really is a different story, necessary to enable it to support these type of ships and cloaky t3s but really adds no real power to it's combat capabilities, people are somewhat confused, they are frightened of a whale where they should be watching out for the sharks and barracudas.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2395 - 2014-03-07 03:02:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
On a battleship, it really is a different story...

Yes, yes it is...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
#2396 - 2014-03-07 14:48:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Steph Livingston
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

I know these threads have got gigantic, which is a good thing as it shows people are really interested and want this ship to mean something, but explainations get lost in this.

...

The same applies to wormholes, there is no point a fleet of 5 cloaked tengus travelling across 4 WH systems to get to good sleeper sites or to prepare to attack a POS or mining fleet, if they are accompanied with an uncloaked, Great White Whale screaming on D Scan as it crawls across the system, HERE WE ARE KILL US!!!

So limited to home or +1 system only. What use is that!
So fatally flawed will never find a home in WH space if incapable of warping cloaked.


Just wrote a long reply and had the forum eat it... awesome.

I spent a stint in WH space, and I still don't understand your logic. Here's what I'm hearing:
The Nestor is designed for WH space. I live in WH space. My corp uses T3 Covert Ops. The Nestor does not have a Covert Ops, therefor it's unsuitable for WH space.

You know what? You don't have to use it. It's not uncommon for some corps to use RR BS fleets to clear sites in their local system, and in that case the Nestor would probably perform quite well.

I've heard people try to justify a covert ops cloak on the Nestor, but I've yet to hear a concrete reason that it needs one. The Nestor has no cloak bonuses what so ever, and the only arguments I've heard are: It doesn't fit our comp without a Covert Ops, or Covert ops would make it more useful.

Guess what, putting a covert ops on a Marauder would also make it more useful, it doesn't mean it's going to happen.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2397 - 2014-03-07 22:26:47 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Steph Livingston wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

I know these threads have got gigantic, which is a good thing as it shows people are really interested and want this ship to mean something, but explainations get lost in this.

...

The same applies to wormholes, there is no point a fleet of 5 cloaked tengus travelling across 4 WH systems to get to good sleeper sites or to prepare to attack a POS or mining fleet, if they are accompanied with an uncloaked, Great White Whale screaming on D Scan as it crawls across the system, HERE WE ARE KILL US!!!

So limited to home or +1 system only. What use is that!
So fatally flawed will never find a home in WH space if incapable of warping cloaked.


Just wrote a long reply and had the forum eat it... awesome.

I spent a stint in WH space, and I still don't understand your logic. Here's what I'm hearing:
The Nestor is designed for WH space. I live in WH space. My corp uses T3 Covert Ops. The Nestor does not have a Covert Ops, therefor it's unsuitable for WH space.

You know what? You don't have to use it. It's not uncommon for some corps to use RR BS fleets to clear sites in their local system, and in that case the Nestor would probably perform quite well.

I've heard people try to justify a covert ops cloak on the Nestor, but I've yet to hear a concrete reason that it needs one. The Nestor has no cloak bonuses what so ever, and the only arguments I've heard are: It doesn't fit our comp without a Covert Ops, or Covert ops would make it more useful.

Guess what, putting a covert ops on a Marauder would also make it more useful, it doesn't mean it's going to happen.


I do see your point, however the only significant feature of the nestor is low mass. The only place where low mass is advantageous is in wormhole space, Low mass however is meaningless if the nestor is condemned to never go through wormholes to other systems, And doomed to stay at home. I have explained why if the ship cannot warp cloaked, is has no place in wormhole space. No need to restate all the reasons, in the threads there are thousands of words of explanation as to why.

You are right, uncloaked battleships are fine in your home system when you control the holes, and then you use logis too.
But you don't take them away from home any distance. If You take them away from home, you will compromise and whelp your fleet by sailing in clear on dscan past your enemies/hunters. So no sale.

So in short as it stands, even though CCP rise has specifically said that the nestor will be popular in wormholes, he is, in this case totally and completely wrong, sorry you can't get it right, every time, first time. I have faith that he is listening though, so there is still hope.
Without being able to warp cloaked, There is no role for the nestor in wormhole space, that's fine, we don't expect anything special, or special treatment.


But unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any other place for it, if you can suggest one there would be a lot of people who would be interested, particularly those who bought or built them and can't sell them.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2398 - 2014-03-08 00:00:51 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


So in short as it stands, even though CCP rise has specifically said that the nestor will be popular in wormholes, he is, in this case totally and completely wrong, sorry you can't get it right, every time, first time. I have faith that he is listening though, so there is still hope.



As it stands Nestor isn't just unpopular in holes.

Its not popular at all. Its not a good ship, there is nothing about it that earn the pirate battleship title.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2399 - 2014-03-08 00:11:59 UTC
Onictus wrote:
As it stands Nestor isn't just unpopular in holes.
Its not popular at all. Its not a good ship, there is nothing about it that earn the pirate battleship title.

That pretty much sums it up.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2400 - 2014-03-08 00:38:04 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Onictus wrote:
As it stands Nestor isn't just unpopular in holes.
Its not popular at all. Its not a good ship, there is nothing about it that earn the pirate battleship title.

That pretty much sums it up.


As i said above if any of the detractors who think that it's home isn't in wormhole space (and no ability to warp cloaked guarantees that) have an idea as to just where it belongs instead, would be kind enough to share that insight, those who are about to lose well over a billion per ship would love to know and maybe even give them a commission!

What no replies?

Looks like nowhere then, that's a real pity.

Still time for CCP Rise to read all the arguments on all the threads, and realise that this is going nowhere fast.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE