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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2081 - 2014-01-19 09:19:28 UTC
Divi Filus wrote:

  • Remove [some/all] turrets—this one is pretty straightforward, and neatly fits what you say is "essential for balance," i.e. "that cloaky ships should not be able to go toe to toe with combat oriented ships." (This requirement, by the way, is already problematic given the existing covert-capable ship line.) It's also the only suggestion I've seen you even obliquely address, with the somewhat bizarre claim that the turrets need to stay because, essentially, that's how the Sisters do things. (The fact that this argument applies equally well towards keeping the turrets as it does towards extending the existing Sisters cloaking bonuses to the last ship in their line may or may not have been lost on you.)

  • Increase sensor recalibration delay—i.e. make it wait some not-insignificant period of time between decloak and targeting. I've put this one forward myself more times now than I care to count, but suffice it to say that a long enough recalibration delay should greatly reduce the ability to dictate initial engagement range and blunt the element of surprise. For anyone who may understandably be concerned about a scenario in which a smaller cloaky ship lands tackle first and then lets the Nestor wait out its targeting delay, I reply that a similar scenario is easily possible today featuring a cloaked tackler and an off-grid battleship (perhaps with a prototype cloak, for bonus points). If there is no problem with the latter scenario, there should be no problem with the former, as long as the Nestor's targeting delay is sufficiently long.

  • Prohibit the ship from accessing covert jump portals—this is just good sense. It should go without saying that a covert Nestor should also not be able to fit a covert jump portal generator itself. The Nestor would thus be reliant on stargates where, as you and I seem to agree, it would be at least somewhat vulnerable.
    • [/list]


    Personally I think the third option + a general nerf to its tank + a removal of its RR bonus is what is needed to balance a cov ops cloak on it. With the inherently slow lock-on times of battleships this thing would be terrible at locking down targets coming out of cloak either way. Plus when a person takes an un-insurable 2+ bisk ship into PVP that ship should rock in my opinion.
    Quinn Corvez
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #2082 - 2014-01-19 14:28:28 UTC
    Roy Alleyne wrote:
    I'm not even going to bother repeating myself on the cloak issue


    It's funny how often people with no legitimate argument take this stance.

    Just face it, your opinion is wrong and multiple people have already explained things that CCP could do to avoid a covert ops BS being OP... But you conviniently choose to ignore those suggestions because it harms your argument.
    Quinn Corvez
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #2083 - 2014-01-19 14:41:11 UTC
    I am disposable wrote:


    Personally I think the third option + a general nerf to its tank + a removal of its RR bonus is what is needed to balance a cov ops cloak on it. With the inherently slow lock-on times of battleships this thing would be terrible at locking down targets coming out of cloak either way. Plus when a person takes an un-insurable 2+ bisk ship into PVP that ship should rock in my opinion.


    The main bonus of this ship is its remote rep ability, so I'm not sure why some people are making the ridiculous suggestion of removing it.

    If it had a covert cloak, removing/reducing the turret slots is the best option.
    Cloudie Day
    PsyCorp
    #2084 - 2014-01-19 19:35:47 UTC
    be cool if this ship could use covert-ops jump bridges :p
    Hasikan Miallok
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #2085 - 2014-01-19 23:52:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
    I am disposable wrote:
    Roy Alleyne wrote:
    Divi Filus wrote:
    Roy Alleyne wrote:
    I'm not even going to bother repeating myself on the cloak issue


    And we all really appreciate it.

    Very well, I wont say anything more on covops cloaking since neither logic or reason based arguments are working. However, if anything new or interesting is suggested then I will be happy to discuss them with everyone as that is what these forums are for. Now if you will exuse me, I need to go patch that head sized dent in the wall.


    First, logic and reason are the same thing.


    Totally off topic but no they are not :D

    Example: Philosophical Stuff
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #2086 - 2014-01-20 02:10:33 UTC
    It's probably moot at this point what with Rubicon 1.1 out in 10 days. We're not getting the ship we want, but the ship we deserve for putting up with the 2 lacklustre expansions and bizarre rebalance changes over the past 6 months.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Psycho IB
    Burning Star L.L.C.
    #2087 - 2014-01-20 07:24:33 UTC
    This thing really needs a boost on the range of the reps and a cap chain booost, come on CCP make it a BS sized Logi boat reppin and cap transfer out to 70KM+, it is really needed. Currently the jump in logi goes from Frig to Cruiser to Capital nothing in between.

    The cov ops Cloak needs to be consistent with the rest of the sister ships for lore alone not to mention it would totally be amazing. I saw it 100 times in the posts that you are just making a cookie cutter RR BS here nothing special, and i totally agree.

    This thing needs to break the mold and shake up the fits everyone is expecting. Sister ships are supposed to be exploration vehicles so why not give them crazy new fitting options that can change the entire dynamic of the game. Especially at a billion + isk price tag, make everyone want one, and actually want to take one into PVP/low/0.0 space because of the advantage, rather than just saying "i might get one of those some day to complete my collection" Or "Oh Better keep this in high sec or i will get blapped"

    I heard so many times in this expansions build up that big changes are coming to the eve universe with this one, that will change the whole dynamic of the game; but so far there has not been more than cautious tiptoeing around with fittings and equipment ideas. and a couple "NEW" hulls, and i say new because they really just are the same old ships with slightly better stats and new
    Roy Alleyne
    Dark Knowledge.
    #2088 - 2014-01-20 07:52:30 UTC
    Divi Filus wrote:


    As far as I'm concerned, the first and the second suggestions may be nearly sufficient on their own for balance concerns. Now suppose all three are taken together: you are left with a battleship that can warp cloaked, but which would struggle to match (let alone exceed) the DPS of a typical t1 battleship; is considerably more vulnerable to gate camps than existing covert-capable ships, due to its battleship-sized signature radius and align time; cannot reliably achieve surprise or dictate the initial maneuvers of an engagement, due to its penalized sensor recalibration; and, unlike every other covert-capable ship in the game (including the Stratios, which is hardly a second-rate combat ship), cannot instantaneously bypass hostile space by bridging to a covert cyno. Those are not inconsiderable tradeoffs for covert capability, in my book. Hell, maybe there's even more that can be done. I think that's more than a fair start.

    Honestly, I don't expect to convince you. I don't need to convince you. I'm sure you've made up your mind on the subject. That's fine. But forgive me if I can't take you seriously when you say that the reason we don't agree with you is because we don't get :logic: and :reason:.

    I do wish you well with that dent.

    You are right, I am not the one you need to convince and I do appologise if I stepped over the line. You are also right that those suggested nerfs would most likely produce a balanced covop BS, however my argument stands that a BS class hull should not get the capability. To be clear, that not saying that they shouldn't because I have a personal vendetta against them but because that they are unable to be balanced without considerably nerfing their capability and the cloak not providing enough incentive for their use when compared to the ability already in the game for cloaky BSs, cloaked velocity bonus.

    When compared against each other a covops has the advantage of cloaked warping and sensor strength while a cloaked velocity bonus provides greater cloaked velocity (allowing for greater survivability at gate camps, greater position uncertainty, shorter align times, and generally moving from A to B faster) and most importantly doesn't require the ship to be nerfed significantly in order for it to remain balanced.

    The argument for a cloaky Nestor stands with these points: wh pointed bonuses, exploration pointed bonuses, and SoE heritage.
    The argument for the addition of a cloak velocity bonus involves: known BS cloaky mechanic, advantages listed above and in previous posts of both myself and others, and the lack of a need to make major alterations to what we already have.
    I will let you fill in the major points for adding a covops as I'm curious as to why you want it, even with all the nerfing.

    My argument is that all the work needed to add a covops to a BS is unnecessary and detracts from the value of the ship. Also be aware that not all of the arguments that I have been alluding to are mine but I simply do not have the time to hunt them down for you. Another thing to point out is that in the post where I point out the strengths of a covops cloak I was pointing out the advantages of the module when paired with an appropriate ship and then went about giving reasons why the Nestor wasn't an appropriate ship.

    If you can provide a valid argument on why a covops should be considered then I will applaud your efforts, much like I have with suggestions like a CJD and SMA. The first I thought was interesting then grew to dislike it while the second I started out disliking it but came around to supporting it. My mind is most certainly not made up but I want a solid reason for every option to be presented, even if I don't agree. I still think that a cloaky bonus should be made available on the ship as the highest priority no matter what it is. Finally, I do thank you for your consideration on the hole, I patched it with ibuprofen and duck tape.
    Divi Filus
    New Xenocracy
    #2089 - 2014-01-20 08:58:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Divi Filus
    Roy Alleyne wrote:
    When compared against each other a covops has the advantage of cloaked warping and sensor strength while a cloaked velocity bonus provides greater cloaked velocity (allowing for greater survivability at gate camps, greater position uncertainty, shorter align times, and generally moving from A to B faster) and most importantly doesn't require the ship to be nerfed significantly in order for it to remain balanced.

    The argument for a cloaky Nestor stands with these points: wh pointed bonuses, exploration pointed bonuses, and SoE heritage.
    The argument for the addition of a cloak velocity bonus involves: known BS cloaky mechanic, advantages listed above and in previous posts of both myself and others, and the lack of a need to make major alterations to what we already have.
    I will let you fill in the major points for adding a covops as I'm curious as to why you want it, even with all the nerfing.

    My argument is that all the work needed to add a covops to a BS is unnecessary and detracts from the value of the ship. Also be aware that not all of the arguments that I have been alluding to are mine but I simply do not have the time to hunt them down for you. Another thing to point out is that in the post where I point out the strengths of a covops cloak I was pointing out the advantages of the module when paired with an appropriate ship and then went about giving reasons why the Nestor wasn't an appropriate ship.

    If you can provide a valid argument on why a covops should be considered then I will applaud your efforts, much like I have with suggestions like a CJD and SMA. The first I thought was interesting then grew to dislike it while the second I started out disliking it but came around to supporting it. My mind is most certainly not made up but I want a solid reason for every option to be presented, even if I don't agree. I still think that a cloaky bonus should be made available on the ship as the highest priority no matter what it is.


    Let's start with what we both agree on: the poor thing is crying out for a cloaking bonus of some kind. I completely agree that, if not a covert ops cloak, it should at least have a bonus to cloaked movement speed, and I've said so earlier in the thread.

    For the most part, I accept your comparison of the covops and cloaked velocity bonuses, though I think you may be overstating the advantages it provides in gate camp survivability and position uncertainty versus a covops, given that an interceptor will easily run the ship down in either scenario. That's a nitpick. Given the two options, I myself would rather have the covops' ability to warp under cloak (and, incidentally, avoid cutting the ship's already poor scan res down to carrier levels).

    Your main concern seems to be that giving the Nestor a covops would require it to be nerfed into the ground; it's a fair concern but I'm not sure I agree it would be necessary. Of the three balance suggestions I stated earlier, two (sensor recalibration penalty & lack of access to covert bridges) have nothing to do with the performance of the hull itself, merely its interaction with the cloak. Obviously, the third suggestion to remove some/all turrets does. If that last measure is necessary (and I'm not sure it is), I think I would still be willing to accept it: as Quinn and others have pointed out, EVE is not exactly starved for high DPS PVE boats, but emphasizing the RR bonus in conjunction with a cloaking bonus could see the Nestor carving out a fairly distinct role for itself as a support ship for exploration and covert ops gangs. In this scenario, the covert warp capability would be crucial for letting the Nestor move with the gang without either a) decloaking them or b) announcing their presence to anyone who happens to catch the Nestor on d-scan during its warp period (which is, even with the 25% bonus, not an inconsiderable duration). If this "covert support" Nestor can warp cloaked, it can accompany the gang as it travels from system to system; if not, this mobility is restricted. Of course, I still believe there's no reason to let it take covert bridges—there's no reason to make it that easy on cloaky gangs, and if they want to bring their support battleship with them, they should at least have to go through the trouble of warping it from system to system (and run the risk of exposing it to capable camps). I intend only that this kind of travel be viable.

    Now as I said, I think it needs a cloaking bonus of some kind. I think the covops option is superior and, to me, preferable, without being inherently overpowered. But I'm also not going to argue against the cloaked speed bonus, since that's the logical fallback position; it just isn't the one I'd rather see.

    Roy Alleyne wrote:
    Finally, I do thank you for your consideration on the hole, I patched it with ibuprofen and duck tape.


    The finest in Minmatar tech.
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #2090 - 2014-01-20 10:00:23 UTC
    This meme, "that battleships will be too powerful with a covops cloak", where did it come from?

    Are we saying that there is something inherently powerful about a battleship that is is not present in a cruiser?

    This idea is at odds with my experience in which battleships, with a few notable exceptions, are vulnerable to say the least to tech 2 cruisers, particularly if alone and buffer-fitted. Even a self-tanked battleship, which can out-tank a HAC, will eventually run out of cap boosters. In this situation It is to all intents and purposes buffer-fitted, it's just that the buffer is in the cargo hold.

    A lone battleship whose primary weapons are guns or missiles can increase its survival chances against a cruiser somewhat by fitting a dual web and a neutraliser, the dual web in particular is expensive in terms of valuable mid slots. A drone ship will need to fit at least 2 neutralisers to be sure of surviving against a HAC, which have very strong capacitors and the ability to lock and destroy drones alarmingly (from the point of view of the battleship) quickly.

    A lone attacking Nestor with covops would have a 5 seconds (at best) delay before it could begin to lock a target (recalibration delay). The target lock would take at least another 8 seconds (locking another battleship). So a hypothetical solo ratting dominix has 13 seconds to evade once he is aware of the attack. A vanilla dominix (with my skills) will enter warp in 11.76 seconds from standstill. So if the defender is alert he need never engage the hypothetical solo covops Nestor, since he has been given a 1.24 second window to react.

    In summary, the idea that covops is "too powerful" on a battleship designed for exploration of hostile space seems to me to have no substance.

    Is there something I have missed in my reasoning?

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    The Djego
    Hellequin Inc.
    #2091 - 2014-01-20 10:26:12 UTC
    Not that I think anything good will come out of the Nestor at this point by some dramatic last second changes or that I am really keen on posting since the marauder changes, but here it goes:

    As RR BS:

    - reduce the signature to under 400(it will take way to much damage with the current sig)
    - it has to little cap and cap recharge, a remote rep BS needs a very powerful capacitor to actually work or a cap use bonus to RR
    - the optimal bonus and lasers are completely useless because of the cap use of lasers and by taking to many slots, stick with something that did actually work and got used as RR BS platform -> give a 100% damage bonus and 3 turrets so it actually can use lasers and RR at the same time, like it was done with the Paladin or Kronos
    - give it a 5 med / 7 low layout, so it actually can fit damage mods for both drones and weapons while still being able to fit a tank
    - give it a far higher scan scan resolution, something like 150 base, for the simple reason that you need to lock stuff to rep it and it has to do that quick, plus at least 10 lockable targets, better 12, for the simple reason that if you have to lock up stuff to shoot and remote rep at the same time, you run out of the target slots very quick and even 10 was rather limited on the marauders
    - add a bonus to remote sensor boosters or remote tracking links, to give it some utility


    As a exploration BS:

    - again reduce the signature to under 400(it will take way to much damage with the current sig)
    - add 400m³ of cargo, so it can go on longer WH trips
    - improve the base speed to 115 m/s, to give it better chances to get back to a gate, burn out of a bubble and better chances to dictate range in a pvp situation
    - add a scan resolution / lock range / speed bonus to reduce the cloak penalty's plus the speed bonus under cloak, similar as on black ops
    - again 5 meds and 7 lows and a more suitable capacitor
    - give it 3 AU/s warp speed, since warping around at 2 AU/s gets old very fast in a hull you would move around a lot
    - give it 3 lasers + 100% damage bonus

    Reduce the LP cost in both cases to 450k(300k with discount), since the frig, cruiser and other sisters items are in high demand(since they are, different to the BS actually useful), the only reason other faction BS are reasonable priced is by the FW LP shops. Even if the price hits 1-1.2B in the long run with the 600k LP cost, that is still far to expensive for what the ship actually can offer.

    Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
    Lephia DeGrande
    Luxembourg Space Union
    #2092 - 2014-01-20 11:04:38 UTC
    Psycho IB wrote:
    This thing really needs a boost on the range of the reps and a cap chain booost, come on CCP make it a BS sized Logi boat reppin and cap transfer out to 70KM+, it is really needed. Currently the jump in logi goes from Frig to Cruiser to Capital nothing in between.


    If CCP Splitting Black Ops into two separate Ships (Covert Bridge/Damage Ops) i think it would be a nice gap filler.

    The Bridge Ops could have no weapons but Bonus on cloak, EWar, logistic and of course bridge.

    While the "classic" Ops are going to have more meaningfull Combat abilitys.

    Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
    Kaddiska
    O-NIWABAN
    #2093 - 2014-01-20 20:07:19 UTC
    Has anyone found any actual niche or role for this ship as it stands on SiSi?
    I'm having the hardest time....

    Best I can come up with is a dual-box or RR-paired Nestors out for long term bling-hunt in the backwoods, remote repping selves and drones, doing high-level anoms, ghost sites and such...but......that's a 3-4bil accident waiting to happen.

    Or, the Nestor is simply the "backbone" of a SOE mini-fleet, with the Astero scouting and Stratios doing the grunt work.

    Unless......the Nestor is simply a drone "carrier" for drone-assist fleets?

    Somebody give me a clue.....this thing is giving me a headache.
    ASadOldGit
    Doomheim
    #2094 - 2014-01-20 20:10:07 UTC
    Just curious, but has anyone tried the cloak/MWD or cloak/MJD trick on the test server? Is that doable in a Nestor?

    This signature intentionally left blank for you to fill in at your leisure.
    Barrogh Habalu
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #2095 - 2014-01-21 06:29:16 UTC
    Quinn Corvez wrote:
    The main bonus of this ship is its remote rep ability, so I'm not sure why some people are making the ridiculous suggestion of removing it.

    Um, because they don't want logi boat that costs like a carrier but don't hold a candle to it?

    Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
    Jowen Datloran
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #2096 - 2014-01-21 13:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
    Most of you peeps might not know, but the Nestor will be pretty good at those COSMOS sites in high sec where you gather components for your Storyline module production. Nearly all of its bonus (except increased strength for scan probes) will come in use there.

    Though, it is questionable if there is a market for this activity.

    Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #2097 - 2014-01-21 13:42:18 UTC
    Kaddiska wrote:
    Has anyone found any actual niche or role for this ship as it stands on SiSi?
    I'm having the hardest time....

    Best I can come up with is a dual-box or RR-paired Nestors out for long term bling-hunt in the backwoods, remote repping selves and drones, doing high-level anoms, ghost sites and such...but......that's a 3-4bil accident waiting to happen.

    Or, the Nestor is simply the "backbone" of a SOE mini-fleet, with the Astero scouting and Stratios doing the grunt work.

    Unless......the Nestor is simply a drone "carrier" for drone-assist fleets?

    Somebody give me a clue.....this thing is giving me a headache.


    In the spirit of being positive I have had a think about WH roles.

    I am thinking along the lines of 3+ Nestors running c3/4/5 sites (no escalation) using remote reps (say 2 or 3 each) and an armour buffer. Mid slots would have some omis, EWAR and crucially, an MJD. Put a few neuts in the high slots.

    With garde IIs, they will kill rats very quickly and can drop mobile tractors for later loot collection. If (when) they get jumped they can ideally MJD to safety as the hictor lands and if that fails, use Neutralisers and ECM to remove any warp scrambler effects before MJDing out of trouble.

    I have to concede though, that I am working very hard here to find a way to risk 6Bn isk and a heart attack...

    6Bn isk will buy a great many more dominix, armageddons and rattlesnakes than it will Nestors and these puppies can do pretty much the same job just as efficiently.

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    Steph Livingston
    Neko's Blanket
    #2098 - 2014-01-21 13:55:26 UTC
    Kaddiska wrote:
    Has anyone found any actual niche or role for this ship as it stands on SiSi?
    I'm having the hardest time....

    Best I can come up with is a dual-box or RR-paired Nestors out for long term bling-hunt in the backwoods, remote repping selves and drones, doing high-level anoms, ghost sites and such...but......that's a 3-4bil accident waiting to happen.

    Or, the Nestor is simply the "backbone" of a SOE mini-fleet, with the Astero scouting and Stratios doing the grunt work.

    Unless......the Nestor is simply a drone "carrier" for drone-assist fleets?

    Somebody give me a clue.....this thing is giving me a headache.


    That's the issue that many of us are concerned with.

    Although the RR bonuses are nice, there are other ships that provide the same bonuses faster and cheaper. Many people are concerned that, for the expected price, you could fit a carrier and have similar/better drone and repair skills.

    In addition, many of the role bonuses become VERY situational on a battleship sized vessel. You're better off running smaller ships to take advantage of the hacking/probing bonuses. So what we're left with is the drone boost, armor and optimal range.

    The Nestor needs more focus, something to make it unique or give it an actual role in fleets. Right now it's just sort of.... meh.
    Divi Filus
    New Xenocracy
    #2099 - 2014-01-21 19:44:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Divi Filus
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    Kaddiska wrote:
    Has anyone found any actual niche or role for this ship as it stands on SiSi?
    I'm having the hardest time....

    Best I can come up with is a dual-box or RR-paired Nestors out for long term bling-hunt in the backwoods, remote repping selves and drones, doing high-level anoms, ghost sites and such...but......that's a 3-4bil accident waiting to happen.

    Or, the Nestor is simply the "backbone" of a SOE mini-fleet, with the Astero scouting and Stratios doing the grunt work.

    Unless......the Nestor is simply a drone "carrier" for drone-assist fleets?

    Somebody give me a clue.....this thing is giving me a headache.


    In the spirit of being positive I have had a think about WH roles.

    I am thinking along the lines of 3+ Nestors running c3/4/5 sites (no escalation) using remote reps (say 2 or 3 each) and an armour buffer. Mid slots would have some omis, EWAR and crucially, an MJD. Put a few neuts in the high slots.

    With garde IIs, they will kill rats very quickly and can drop mobile tractors for later loot collection. If (when) they get jumped they can ideally MJD to safety as the hictor lands and if that fails, use Neutralisers and ECM to remove any warp scrambler effects before MJDing out of trouble.

    I have to concede though, that I am working very hard here to find a way to risk 6Bn isk and a heart attack...

    6Bn isk will buy a great many more dominix, armageddons and rattlesnakes than it will Nestors and these puppies can do pretty much the same job just as efficiently.


    That's pretty much the problem: it can run those sites, sure, but why? Like you say, Domis and Rattlers can do pretty much the same job as (or more) effectively, not to mention the other non-drone hulls that can do the same. What is the value added for that 2b price tag? Is the reduced mass significant enough to justify using this ship over the existing alternatives? What about outside of wormholes, where mass isn't an issue?

    The same can be said of the RR bonuses: logistics cruisers and carriers do a better job at a fraction of the cost.

    This is yet another reason why I think some kind of cloaking bonus is so badly needed on this hull, so that it can function as an adequate support ship for exploration and covops gangs. Logis and carriers will still outperform it in terms of raw rep ability, but what they can't do is cloak effectively enough to accompany a roaming gang (or, in the case of the logi, contribute appreciable DPS).
    Estella Osoka
    Cranky Bitches Who PMS
    #2100 - 2014-01-21 21:07:52 UTC
    Based on the cost of this ship, I cannot for the life of me see a use for this ship.

    A fully fit carrier will cost less than this ship and provide better reps. A T2 logi will cost less than this ship and provide better reps. Domis could be fit to provide the same role, but less range; but at a significant drop in cost.

    The only thing I see this ship being used for is gank bait.