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The great missile debate

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#241 - 2013-12-24 00:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
As a rule of thumb consider missiles to be poor for PvP due to travel-time. The only exception to this are the small, and close range medium systems, due to faster payload delivery.
So, you are saying here that short range missile system and LM are the only missiles without the problem of travel time. Hence, I repeat :
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
That is completely wrong. There have been 3 years of Drake and Tengu to prove that wrong.


HML Drake and Tengu operated in long range doctrines of nullsec. Hence the speed of HML was enough to be useful in a fleet doctrine.

HML Drake and Tengu operated in small gang and alone too with rather good success. Hence the speed of HML was enough to be useful in small gang and solo.

In the HML nerf; HM and CM speed have been buffed.

Hence, LR missile velocity is not a problem for pvp.

Considering what you say and what I just said, missile speed is enough for pvp in EVE with maybe the exception of sniping.

Hence, the idea of missiles being too slow to be good for pvp is a legend which might been true in the past when fleets fought eachother at 200km but isn't anymore.

@Drake Doe : Indeed CM Raven and Typhoon could probably make a doctrine, but gallente made a come back and people where dreaming of a gallente doctrine for years whereas caldari/minmatar doctrines are kind of "déjà vu" now. But who knows ? Maybe they will finaly kill the undead potato one day ?
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#242 - 2013-12-24 03:08:26 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
As a rule of thumb consider missiles to be poor for PvP due to travel-time.
That is completely wrong. There have been 3 years of Drake and Tengu to prove that wrong. You can say that missile travel time is bad for sniping (that's why the Naga don't have missiles BTW), but you just can't say it for pvp as a whole as there have been countless proofs of the contrary over the past few years.

Damn there even was a Caracal doctrine in null with RLML when LM are the slowest LR missiles.

So stop with this legend please.


I said right in my post what the exceptions are. Repeating what I said in a negative tone does not change that. Especially when making examples of the missile types I call out to be, the exceptions to this issue. These drakes you speak of are of a past long gone fitting the narrowest engagement profile in history. Everything in your post I have addressed. I really feel like 'that homeless guy staring off into oblivion talking to himself' when I reply to your posts. Take the effort to reread my post and you will find me agreeing on most things. Except for the drake which was never the 'go to boat' for everything. It was OP in blobs, and was starting to see counters shortly before they and the 'HML' got nerfed into oblivion. Don't turn that into me saying drakes didn't need nerfed.

Edit: The exception didn't include cruise missiles, but I had hoped that me noting them as "good" would be clear enough.



It didn't really get nerfed as much as it was brought back into balance. In the hayday of the Drake, it would be in the top spot for damage and kills on Eve kill month after month after month for three years straight. The fact that we see a diversity in doctrines today show that it was simply balanced.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#243 - 2013-12-24 04:41:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ireland VonVicious
Missiles currently kicking ass on Gurrista ships. Big smile

Missiles have:

Great range / DPS ratio. (( Way better than auto cannons ))
Damage type selection. (( Even better than auto cannons ))
They don't use cap.
They get defenders to hold of larger targets (( Tacklers ))
F.0.F.'s to allow for damage v.s. heavy ECM groups.

If you don't find missiles to be the best weapon system in Eve it's because you discovered how bad ass drones can be.
If you think guns do a better job, you are doing it wrong. The only guns that even come close to being compared are the auto cannons due to no cap/damage type and they still don't pull off what missile do.

Side notes: Torps are for BS v.s. Cap ships.
CCP loves Caldari. Please view current EW options if proof is needed.

If CCP wants to make missiles even more pimp that is fine with me.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#244 - 2013-12-24 05:09:21 UTC
Quote:
Damage type selection. (( Even better than auto cannons ))


That's part of the problem. Most of the best missile boats don't have selectable damage types, because you lose 20% of your damage by swapping to anything other than Kinetic.

Quote:
F.0.F.'s to allow for damage v.s. heavy ECM groups.


No one uses FOF missiles. This is in part because they live up to their name: they'll target friends or foes. At random.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#245 - 2013-12-24 10:26:22 UTC
Daenika wrote:
Quote:
Damage type selection. (( Even better than auto cannons ))


That's part of the problem. Most of the best missile boats don't have selectable damage types, because you lose 20% of your damage by swapping to anything other than Kinetic.
This is still far better than everything else in game. AC always have at best 80% of true selectable damage because of the mixed damage type of their ammo (they always have a bit of kin/explo damage) and T2 AC ammo are explo/kin without choice.

The only ships actually losing some damage selection with missiles are the 10%/lvl bonused ones, and yet that's still far better than what hybrid and laser have, in front of T2 resists particularly.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#246 - 2013-12-24 14:53:25 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Daenika wrote:
Quote:
Damage type selection. (( Even better than auto cannons ))


That's part of the problem. Most of the best missile boats don't have selectable damage types, because you lose 20% of your damage by swapping to anything other than Kinetic.
This is still far better than everything else in game. AC always have at best 80% of true selectable damage because of the mixed damage type of their ammo (they always have a bit of kin/explo damage) and T2 AC ammo are explo/kin without choice.

The only ships actually losing some damage selection with missiles are the 10%/lvl bonused ones, and yet that's still far better than what hybrid and laser have, in front of T2 resists particularly.


Ya know, it would be much easier to take you seriously if you didn't dismiss everything that is legitimately wrong with missiles. Instead everything mentioned needs a counter-argument. When you compare apples and oranges, sometimes there is no equivalent downside to the other fruit. Since you mentioned the rainbow damage on minmatar ships if you say 25% unwanted damage type. You get a higher reduction over 25% which in PvE comes down to between 25% to 50%<(elite mobs) less damage over 25%.
All in all, kinetic and thermal are the most common PvE resist holes and they are covered excellently.

Don't quote me on this one but I recall the math saying that the closer to full rainbow dps you get the higher your applied dps gets in PvP.
Due to the fact people try to get rounded resist profiles, coupled with the fact that projectile ammo fits well into the lob-sided resist-profiles that factions work with.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#247 - 2013-12-24 17:28:08 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Since you mentioned the rainbow damage on minmatar ships if you say 25% unwanted damage type. You get a higher reduction over 25% which in PvE comes down to between 25% to 50%<(elite mobs) less damage over 25%.
All in all, kinetic and thermal are the most common PvE resist holes and they are covered excellently.

Don't quote me on this one but I recall the math saying that the closer to full rainbow dps you get the higher your applied dps gets in PvP.
Due to the fact people try to get rounded resist profiles, coupled with the fact that projectile ammo fits well into the lob-sided resist-profiles that factions work with.
Ok, I just checked some numbers and indeed projectile have a great advantage because explo and EM resist are only seen on minmatar and amarr T2 ships whereas most ships resist either kin, thermal or both. The good ammo here is EMP which have the almost perfect mix for all but minmatar ships (for them you have phased plasma or explosive ammo).

With the numbers, my conclusion is that 25% damage bonused hull have about the same efficiency than projectile for damage selection (they will apply about the same percentage of base damage).

Yet, all hull with rof bonus have the best damage selection in game, before projectiles.

50% damage bonused missile hull fall behind projectile hulls but still are before laser and hybrid ships.

And with missiles you still have the damage selection with T2 ammo.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#248 - 2013-12-24 20:15:05 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ok, I just checked some numbers and indeed projectile have a great advantage because explo and EM resist are only seen on minmatar and amarr T2 ships whereas most ships resist either kin, thermal or both. The good ammo here is EMP which have the almost perfect mix for all but minmatar ships (for them you have phased plasma or explosive ammo).

With the numbers, my conclusion is that 25% damage bonused hull have about the same efficiency than projectile for damage selection (they will apply about the same percentage of base damage).

Yet, all hull with rof bonus have the best damage selection in game, before projectiles.

50% damage bonused missile hull fall behind projectile hulls but still are before laser and hybrid ships.

And with missiles you still have the damage selection with T2 ammo.


Tyvm for letting me have my point, and you're welcome, glad I remembered that from my pirate buddies ^^. That said a 25% bonus loss, doesn't come close to a 12% damage loss based on ammo in a PvE scenario only. So if we are comparing PvE, well.. That hasn't been the major issue of missiles in general. It has been an issue when it comes to missile hull progression. But not missiles.
Personally I think you could see it in the light of your opponents a little easier if you see that we don't look at missiles as garbage in all respects. Missiles can shine but there is too much 'planetary alignment/full eclipse' work that goes into them to justify what is needed for them. Definitely don't look at them in a vacuum, application is stressed due to slot layouts/inherent inefficiency.
The gripe with missiles lands solely on rlml, rhml, torps, hml and HAM to a lesser extent, why this is an abomination to people who rely mostly or solely on missiles is the fact that the medium sized hull group is THE MOST widely used/useful and highest ship count group. The backbone of a weapon/faction progression. I myself have a larger gripe with the SP side of it which is why I posted a wall of text on the subject.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#249 - 2013-12-26 09:34:07 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Daenika wrote:
Quote:
Damage type selection. (( Even better than auto cannons ))


That's part of the problem. Most of the best missile boats don't have selectable damage types, because you lose 20% of your damage by swapping to anything other than Kinetic.
This is still far better than everything else in game. AC always have at best 80% of true selectable damage because of the mixed damage type of their ammo (they always have a bit of kin/explo damage) and T2 AC ammo are explo/kin without choice.

The only ships actually losing some damage selection with missiles are the 10%/lvl bonused ones, and yet that's still far better than what hybrid and laser have, in front of T2 resists particularly.


Ya know, it would be much easier to take you seriously if you didn't dismiss everything that is legitimately wrong with missiles. Instead everything mentioned needs a counter-argument. When you compare apples and oranges, sometimes there is no equivalent downside to the other fruit. Since you mentioned the rainbow damage on minmatar ships if you say 25% unwanted damage type. You get a higher reduction over 25% which in PvE comes down to between 25% to 50%<(elite mobs) less damage over 25%.
All in all, kinetic and thermal are the most common PvE resist holes and they are covered excellently.

Don't quote me on this one but I recall the math saying that the closer to full rainbow dps you get the higher your applied dps gets in PvP.
Due to the fact people try to get rounded resist profiles, coupled with the fact that projectile ammo fits well into the lob-sided resist-profiles that factions work with.



And you dare to bring up PVE on a balance discussion? PVE is irrelevant balance wise. Balance shoudl be achieved for PVPand then extrapolated to PVE!


THe damage selection on minmatar ships effectively is much smalelr because most of time with AC you are using barrage. While caldari has multiple damage types on T2 missiles.

That is a HUGE difference. Minamtar can only select damage type when they can use normal ammo, and that is when the enemy is much weaker and they cn approach. In other words ithelps to gank a weaker target faster.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#250 - 2013-12-26 09:49:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Daenika wrote:
Quote:
Damage type selection. (( Even better than auto cannons ))


That's part of the problem. Most of the best missile boats don't have selectable damage types, because you lose 20% of your damage by swapping to anything other than Kinetic.
This is still far better than everything else in game. AC always have at best 80% of true selectable damage because of the mixed damage type of their ammo (they always have a bit of kin/explo damage) and T2 AC ammo are explo/kin without choice.

The only ships actually losing some damage selection with missiles are the 10%/lvl bonused ones, and yet that's still far better than what hybrid and laser have, in front of T2 resists particularly.


Ya know, it would be much easier to take you seriously if you didn't dismiss everything that is legitimately wrong with missiles. Instead everything mentioned needs a counter-argument. When you compare apples and oranges, sometimes there is no equivalent downside to the other fruit. Since you mentioned the rainbow damage on minmatar ships if you say 25% unwanted damage type. You get a higher reduction over 25% which in PvE comes down to between 25% to 50%<(elite mobs) less damage over 25%.
All in all, kinetic and thermal are the most common PvE resist holes and they are covered excellently.

Don't quote me on this one but I recall the math saying that the closer to full rainbow dps you get the higher your applied dps gets in PvP.
Due to the fact people try to get rounded resist profiles, coupled with the fact that projectile ammo fits well into the lob-sided resist-profiles that factions work with.



And you dare to bring up PVE on a balance discussion? PVE is irrelevant balance wise. Balance shoudl be achieved for PVPand then extrapolated to PVE!


THe damage selection on minmatar ships effectively is much smalelr because most of time with AC you are using barrage. While caldari has multiple damage types on T2 missiles.

That is a HUGE difference. Minamtar can only select damage type when they can use normal ammo, and that is when the enemy is much weaker and they cn approach. In other words ithelps to gank a weaker target faster.


I will dare wtf ever I want to dare. That said PvE was implied because PvP-wise his argument made no sense as per my aforementioned reasons. You can rage about your engagement profile but your damage selection is there and as I mentioned to begin with. PvP isn't as much about being able to pick 100% damage of sorts. It has much more to do with the common resist profile. We were talking damage types, every weapon-type has suboptimal setups your troll attempt doesn't change that. So for clarity sake 'I wasn't discussing engagement profiles, what you do in your free time is up to you'.

P.S. Normal ammo? IF you mean people have been packing republic fleet ammo since before I can remember, then yes.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#251 - 2013-12-26 13:54:26 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:

I will dare wtf ever I want to dare. That said PvE was implied because PvP-wise his argument made no sense as per my aforementioned reasons. You can rage about your engagement profile but your damage selection is there and as I mentioned to begin with. PvP isn't as much about being able to pick 100% damage of sorts. It has much more to do with the common resist profile. We were talking damage types, every weapon-type has suboptimal setups your troll attempt doesn't change that. So for clarity sake 'I wasn't discussing engagement profiles, what you do in your free time is up to you'.

P.S. Normal ammo? IF you mean people have been packing republic fleet ammo since before I can remember, then yes.


trolling? On the opposite, the fact is that I understand combat, you do not. And no people will not use faction ammo against a target that is stronger or as strong as the minmatar ship at close range , for example a blaster boat. Republic fleet i great when you need jsut to kill faster something that you could already kill with barrrage. But he ammo that you will travel around .. loaded in your vagabond, stabber, loki, cynabal .. is barrage.

It is the main minmatar amo and it does NOT have damage selection. Caldari has damage selection on t2 missiles. That is why minmatar damage selection is no where as powerful as caldari one.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#252 - 2013-12-26 18:52:30 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:

I will dare wtf ever I want to dare. That said PvE was implied because PvP-wise his argument made no sense as per my aforementioned reasons. You can rage about your engagement profile but your damage selection is there and as I mentioned to begin with. PvP isn't as much about being able to pick 100% damage of sorts. It has much more to do with the common resist profile. We were talking damage types, every weapon-type has suboptimal setups your troll attempt doesn't change that. So for clarity sake 'I wasn't discussing engagement profiles, what you do in your free time is up to you'.

P.S. Normal ammo? IF you mean people have been packing republic fleet ammo since before I can remember, then yes.


trolling? On the opposite, the fact is that I understand combat, you do not. And no people will not use faction ammo against a target that is stronger or as strong as the minmatar ship at close range , for example a blaster boat. Republic fleet i great when you need jsut to kill faster something that you could already kill with barrrage. But he ammo that you will travel around .. loaded in your vagabond, stabber, loki, cynabal .. is barrage.

It is the main minmatar amo and it does NOT have damage selection. Caldari has damage selection on t2 missiles. That is why minmatar damage selection is no where as powerful as caldari one.


You seem to be talking AC not projectiles, as I said we all suffer our unusable setups. Many things can factor into this. This is my point. I am well aware minmatar have their issues atm, no I do not fly them in PvP. There are plenty of ship setups in all factions that are not viable, or 'good enough'.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#253 - 2013-12-26 19:07:28 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
As a rule of thumb consider missiles to be poor for PvP due to travel-time. The only exception to this are the small, and close range medium systems, due to faster payload delivery.
So, you are saying here that short range missile system and LM are the only missiles without the problem of travel time. Hence, I repeat :
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
That is completely wrong. There have been 3 years of Drake and Tengu to prove that wrong.


HML Drake and Tengu operated in long range doctrines of nullsec. Hence the speed of HML was enough to be useful in a fleet doctrine.

HML Drake and Tengu operated in small gang and alone too with rather good success. Hence the speed of HML was enough to be useful in small gang and solo.

In the HML nerf; HM and CM speed have been buffed.

Hence, LR missile velocity is not a problem for pvp.

Considering what you say and what I just said, missile speed is enough for pvp in EVE with maybe the exception of sniping.

Hence, the idea of missiles being too slow to be good for pvp is a legend which might been true in the past when fleets fought eachother at 200km but isn't anymore.

@Drake Doe : Indeed CM Raven and Typhoon could probably make a doctrine, but gallente made a come back and people where dreaming of a gallente doctrine for years whereas caldari/minmatar doctrines are kind of "déjà vu" now. But who knows ? Maybe they will finaly kill the undead potato one day ?

Maybe one day, but that'll probably require another revamp of cruise missiles

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#254 - 2013-12-27 11:02:55 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Maybe one day, but that'll probably require another revamp of cruise missiles
Come on... The only drawback of cruise missiles these days is that they don't blap frigates and AHAC, yet I'm not sure about a fully painted and webed target. Cruise already have multifreq pulse laser dps with selectable damage on almost all ships able to fit them !
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#255 - 2013-12-27 11:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
If missiles are so awesome, why are they not all over the top N kill boards again?

Projectiles: 130283
Hybrids: 103395
Energy: 43128
Missile: 33166

Missiles being split about 50/25/25 in terms of torp/light (t2)/light (meta) missile systems

Of course I'm sure someone will point out that killboards are meaningless, but the numbers are interesting, none the less.
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#256 - 2013-12-27 13:12:48 UTC
missile systems have been brought back into line. they use to be so stupid op. and if you want something very OP fly a tengu.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#257 - 2013-12-27 19:48:40 UTC
Red Teufel wrote:
missile systems have been brought back into line. they use to be so stupid op. and if you want something very OP fly a tengu.

There's so much wrong with this that it's easier just to ignore it.
Saul Rogers
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#258 - 2013-12-27 19:48:55 UTC
Red Teufel wrote:
missile systems have been brought back into line. they use to be so stupid op. and if you want something very OP fly a tengu.


I had fun reading your post, your attempt to make believe people that missiles are OP is just hilarious and pitiful, don't post when you have nothing to say please......
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#259 - 2013-12-27 21:33:21 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
Maybe one day, but that'll probably require another revamp of cruise missiles
Come on... The only drawback of cruise missiles these days is that they don't blap frigates and AHAC, yet I'm not sure about a fully painted and webed target. Cruise already have multifreq pulse laser dps with selectable damage on almost all ships able to fit them !

Yet people still don't make fleets compromised of them, I wonder why.Roll

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#260 - 2013-12-27 22:12:24 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Yet people still don't make fleets compromised of them, I wonder why.Roll
I already said : gallente are fotm. Caldari were for 3 years with winmatar, people want to change, and the Megathron is so sexy, you can't compete. And the come back of the undead sentry potato man ! How can anything compete with that ?!

More seriously, there are many reasons why a ship/weapon can be not use for blob warfare, but most of them do not say anything about the effectiveness of the ship/weapon in question. That is because there is a psychological and sociological aspect on fotm. You need a FC with a strategy, a convenient meta, time for the grunts to skill up and for logistic to to feed the war machine, and people to believe in it. Even a good setup can fail only because people don't believe in it.

But right now sentries are just fotm so there's nothing to do about it but waiting for an alliance to come with a counter to sentries or CCP to nerf the said sentries or the optimal range+tracking bonus for sentries. So much people believe sentries OP these days I'm pretty sure a direct counter to them can fail only because of the lack of faith.

Mind you, I actually see way to use missile flight time to your advantage in fact. The problem is that this idea will probably never be tryed because there's too many people to convince. A year ago I tryed to convince my alliance that a drone ship doctrine could be effective but I just been lough at because the time hadn't came yet.

But I'm curious : what do cruise missiles need to be good in your opinion ?