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POCO gagging

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Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#141 - 2013-12-04 00:02:08 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
The economics of war decing Goons just so you can take a POCO from them is pretty obviously not good. You get that right?

If you wanted them that badly, you could have avoided the wardec fees, reinforcement timers and defence fleets by getting there first and shooting them when they were interbus COs.

It's not up to CCP to balance against your lack of foresight.

Also if we literally paid you to wardec us it wouldn't change the ownership of any POCOs, so.

Everyone saying "But it's not the intended conflict driver!" has clearly stayed on the forums too long and come to the conclusion RvBee own every highsec POCO. There's loads out there to be fighting over.


Why do you not get that I'm discussing the topic in general, not myself specifically? I already stated that I do not want high sec POCOs and do not do PI in high sec.

As far as the rest of your post goes, I'm pretty sure you are completely wrong. Without the financial penalty of attempting to take your POCOs you would likely be overwhelmed by too many attacks on too many fronts (I'm sure you could hold many, but I'm also sure you would lose a fair number). As it is you have the war dec system greatly reducing how much you are attacked, because as I said, it is not economic to pay the fee to attack your POCOs.
Louis Robichaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2013-12-04 00:45:23 UTC
Bobby Frutt wrote:
Silvetica Dian wrote:
I too find it appaling that these null sec bullies have come to high sec to lower our taxes.......





to lower our taxes.........

Until everyone gets comfortable and they decide to raise all the taxes at once, thereby hauling PI production and allowing them to monopolize the markets with their own mats.

CFC are the last group I want to trust with my economic prospecting, no offense to them :P.


I therefore encourage you to use an RvB POCO. Unlike the goons, POCOs are an important part of our income (we don't rent space, we don't own r64 moons...) and we aren't going to mess with them and upset our valued customers.

Furthermore, the isk from your very reasonable tax rates will not be used to fund Teh Eval Goons Conspiracy(tm), whatever the heck it may be, but rather help fun RvB activities, which anyone can join.

I blog a bit http://hspew.blogspot.ca
Louis Robichaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2013-12-04 01:02:41 UTC
Oh and another point for the Grrr Goons crowd:

Have you considered that we are dealing with the goons so *you don't have to*?!?

Yes that is right, you can deal with us so you don't have to give a single isk to the goons! We endured *years* of excruciating negotiations and sacrifices to put the RvBee agreement in place, ensuring that not only you wouldn't have to deal with goons, the goons wouldn't touch the POCOs you are using! Isn't that awesome?

You're welcome, you are very welcome.


For the non-grrr-goons crowd, please use any RvBee POCO that you like, whichever is most convenient for you :)

I blog a bit http://hspew.blogspot.ca
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#144 - 2013-12-04 13:45:13 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Why do you not get that I'm discussing the topic in general, not myself specifically? I already stated that I do not want high sec POCOs and do not do PI in high sec.

Ok then. Well, if you stop trying to stand up for theoretical dumb-dumbs, there's no problem?
Quote:
Without the financial penalty of attempting to take your POCOs you would likely be overwhelmed by too many attacks on too many fronts

This is provably not the case, given there's no 'financial penalty' for attacking 90% of the structures we own, and they're not all being attacked in some distributed effort.
Additionally, one single wardec lets the attacker attack ALL of our infrastructure, not just one POCO. To say it's not financially viable to attack a POCO is missing the point, rather wilfully, to try to make a point best expressed as "grr GOONS, also devswarm, much?"

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#145 - 2013-12-04 13:59:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zvaarian the Red
Khanh'rhh wrote:

This is provably not the case, given there's no 'financial penalty' for attacking 90% of the structures we own, and they're not all being attacked in some distributed effort.


Because you own the space in which they reside. High sec POCOs are an entirely different animal, and it is the war dec system that currently protects you there.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#146 - 2013-12-04 17:53:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:

This is provably not the case, given there's no 'financial penalty' for attacking 90% of the structures we own, and they're not all being attacked in some distributed effort.


Because you own the space in which they reside. High sec POCOs are an entirely different animal, and it is the war dec system that currently protects you there.

This is a dumb point that I've already shown the logic is flawed in twice. If people just want to own their own POCO to use, well, happy days, because the overwhelming majority of them are free to take / not owned by RvBee.

What's happening here is people want to grrrrrrr some Goons by attacking ours, to stop us from doing what we're doing. As mentioned, 500mil to attack our entire infrastructure for a week is not a disincentive; it's happening as I write this.

It's 2013. 500mil is barely any ISK to a lone pilot, let alone an entity and should be a rounding error on a corp/alliance level. You really think there are tiny corps of 10 guys sitting around saying "Gosh darnit, we really want to do this but 50mil each for a week of fun is just like whoa? You know?" 100 man highsec alliances going "5mil a guy is a massive amount of ISK" - hint: a lot of highsec wardeccers fund their fees in this way, this isn't new.

No, no one is saying this because your argument is rather trite. What it is, is just a hand-waved excuse about "Oh so I TOTALLY would be doing a thing where I showed them goonies what for, but REASONS MAN CCP ETC!"

That, or you're all still mining veldspar for 3 ISK an hour or something and it's a lot of ISK, I never know with highsec.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#147 - 2013-12-04 18:41:41 UTC
they're just making excuses to not grind structures and get blobbed

perhaps, it's time to save their renters, or prepare for alliance tournament, or there's some other place which is virtually the only place there is action

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#148 - 2013-12-04 18:47:18 UTC
So, when are the first highsec PvP corps taking the opportunity to wardec RvB and Groonswarm to pop their POCOs and never replace them? They may be big but they can't be everywhere and they are spreading themselves thin. Don't forget to invest in PI products, first!

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TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#149 - 2013-12-04 19:04:09 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
So, when are the first highsec PvP corps taking the opportunity to wardec RvB and Groonswarm.


Probably as soon as it isn't insanely expensive to dec an alliance anymore. Scraping together the money for a wardec only to be roflstomped by a massive blob isn't very high on anyone's to do list.

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Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#150 - 2013-12-04 21:54:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Abrazzar wrote:
So, when are the first highsec PvP corps taking the opportunity to wardec RvB and Groonswarm to pop their POCOs

That would be about 5 hours after they went up, or less. Some of them have barely been in a non-reinforced state since Rubicon.

They're just not poors like the above poster, I guess.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Professor Clio
Apocalypse Lancers
#151 - 2013-12-04 22:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Professor Clio
RvB currently controls just under half of the POCOs in the forge. You're welcome to try to take any from us. Also if you happen to have POCOs in the forge and you'd like to sell them to us, we will happily take them off your hands for a fair price. So far I've purchased close to 100 POCOs off people for a mutually agreeable price (granted my negociating position is backed by the threat of violence)
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2013-12-05 00:36:36 UTC
You know, you guys could also say *screw these Goon and RVB pirates* and just come use CVA POCOs in Domain.

Not only do we not blow you up the first chance we get, we also dont feel its necessary to advertise our POCOs constantly and rub it in your faces like they are doing.

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Proletariat Tingtango
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2013-12-05 01:03:19 UTC
you really only have a good legitimate complaint against hi-sec POCOs if the tax rates were, on the whole, higher than what they were under NPC control. I know if you're doing PI in the right places you pay as much as or less than what you did before rubicon, so you're actually just whining because instead of the customs office belonging to an NPC and just being a relatively meaningless isk sink, that isk is actually going to players you may or may not like, but the reality is your feelings on goons, rvb, or every joe with a poco in hi sec does absolutely nothing to affect your profit margins and in some cases has possibly improved them.
Professor Clio
Apocalypse Lancers
#154 - 2013-12-05 01:50:50 UTC
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
you really only have a good legitimate complaint against hi-sec POCOs if the tax rates were, on the whole, higher than what they were under NPC control. I know if you're doing PI in the right places you pay as much as or less than what you did before rubicon, so you're actually just whining because instead of the customs office belonging to an NPC and just being a relatively meaningless isk sink, that isk is actually going to players you may or may not like, but the reality is your feelings on goons, rvb, or every joe with a poco in hi sec does absolutely nothing to affect your profit margins and in some cases has possibly improved them.


Take your rational thinking out of my GD. Don't you know you're not allowed to make sense in here?
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#155 - 2013-12-05 02:30:11 UTC
I think any corp with a high sec POCO should be allowed to what they please with their structure. They blew up that NPC and bought that gantry and have the right to do so. Costs to public will (should) be handed down to end users.

BUT

No way in hell should they also be allowed to get around some sort of standings grind or maintenance fee to the sov. NPC. Is a bit lame to not have such requirements IMHO

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#156 - 2013-12-05 06:22:57 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
So, when are the first highsec PvP corps taking the opportunity to wardec RvB and Groonswarm to pop their POCOs

That would be about 5 hours after they went up, or less. Some of them have barely been in a non-reinforced state since Rubicon.

They're just not poors like the above poster, I guess.

they also don't care to shoot structures and be outblobbed because timers

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#157 - 2013-12-05 10:00:41 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
So, when are the first highsec PvP corps taking the opportunity to wardec RvB and Groonswarm to pop their POCOs

That would be about 5 hours after they went up, or less. Some of them have barely been in a non-reinforced state since Rubicon.

They're just not poors like the above poster, I guess.

they also don't care to shoot structures and be outblobbed because timers

You know, i like to think of it as helping to teach new FCs all about sov war, in the absence of a sov war.

Soon babby's first structure shoot and structure rep might be a highsec poco.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Aldebaran Aubaris
Free-lances
#158 - 2013-12-05 13:07:59 UTC
Herbinator d'Arcadie wrote:
... it sticks in my craw...



Where exactly is your craw?
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#159 - 2013-12-05 13:23:09 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:
No way in hell should they also be allowed to get around some sort of standings grind or maintenance fee to the sov. NPC. Is a bit lame to not have such requirements IMHO

This is the kind of silly schadenfreude highsec asks CCP to instil on us, not knowing it would only screw them over. If this were the case, we'd simply plant them down using an alt corp we made in 5 seconds with a few alts with good standings, and carry on as per usual. Then everyone else needs to grind standings just to compete, and it's an absurdity on the face of it.

Also Alavaria, you're talking to yourself again.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#160 - 2013-12-05 14:39:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
I took an alt to Jita and I found POCO's 2 jumps from Jita which were not owned by the Goons or RvB, If you want to have people go all Grrrr Goons you will have to do better than that, what is the Eve universe coming to when the Goons are not efficiently destroying structures, to say I am disappointed is an understatement.

You guys need to blow on the Horn of Gondor, you need a Gentle Goons speech to get you in the right frame of mind, ignore N3 they are not important, hisec POCO's need your gentle caring approach, so people can Grrr Goon with real feeling!

This is not Grrrrrrrrr Goons this is gr ummm who!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

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