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POCO gagging

First post
Author
Zheng'Yi Sao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-12-03 00:16:38 UTC
KuroVolt wrote:
Is there a list somewhere that shows what organisations own a large amount of High Sec POCOs?


Some of the more entreprenurial sorts have been advertising in trade hubs.

"It's funny the things you people think are mandatory for us, as if we don't do what we do because it's a hilarious good time in a space video game." - Johnny Marzetti

Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#62 - 2013-12-03 01:08:46 UTC
Del DelVechio wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
In my opinion this whole high sec POCO thing just serves to illustrate how utterly awful the current war dec mechanics are. Want to take over some planets from a massive corp that has hundreds of POCOs in high sec? Yeah have fun paying half a bil just to try.


This ignores the fact that multiple people have busted their asses for years to build these "massive corps". Get off your ass, stop whining on the forums, and make one yourself. Come and take the POCOs.

Del

Its probably easier to whine on the forums....


Posts like this are so silly. I don't in any way want high sec pocos. I'm just pointing out that people who do are forced to deal with an idiotic war dec system that charges more and more to declare war against the groups who have the most ability to defend themselves. Large, organized corps should not get an extra layer of protection just handed to them because they are big. It's just stupid.
Professor Clio
Apocalypse Lancers
#63 - 2013-12-03 01:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Professor Clio
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Professor Clio wrote:
[
Moving your production to an RvB owned planet solves all those issues. We have the means to defend those POCOs, enough of them for you to find the mix of planets you need (over 200 and counting), all within a few jumps of Jita and the business sense to know that it's in our best interest to keep the tax low so as to attract/keep our clients.


First of all, I want to extend RvB my most sincere congratulations because imo your organization is to EvE what sliced bread is to inventions. Wish RvB existed when I had time to PvP! P


Second: aren't / weren't you based on Dodixie? Because the planets are around there.




Wow, blast from the past! We used to be down in galente space but we moved a few times since then finally settling in liekuri/otela near Jita. It made everything from recruitment to resupply easier.

All our POCOs are currently in the forge, where we own 1/3 of all planets in the region (in the best systems of course)
Zheng'Yi Sao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-12-03 02:32:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Zheng'Yi Sao
Tyranny is enabled primarily by the idea that people cannot do anything about it.

I mean, there is no way a giant organized block of players could ever come into existence. Nobody would ever band together in null sec and create an empire. There would never be an organization of brave new players banding together in hi sec. Or would there?

EVE is a place where numbers thrive. Alone you can survive. Survival of the fittest. If the "oppressed" will not stand together, they shall be exploited. Large corporations survive because they show the willingness to expand and defend their assets. As another capsuleer pointed out, smaller corps tend to jump ship like rats as soon as a shot is fired. The problem with maintaining one or two independent POCOs is not the financial burden of a war dec, it is a failure to network. Assets of this sort simply cannot be defended against larger alliances. Frankly, I don't see how people maintain stations in hi-sec either, unless they have a lot of friends.

Yes, you can do anything you want in EVE, but you need to set realistic goals. If you want the world, you need to go out and earn it.

The real question should be why shouldn't larger corps dominate the POCO system?

What right does a single person in a 0% tax shelter corp have to operate such an asset and be protected in some way?

I don't really see how wardecs really play into it, unless this mega corp is based entirely in hi-sec. Chances are it is not. I am certain there are plenty of assets available in null waiting to be destroyed, free of charge; ask Harry Forever. I hav a feeling people are either too lazy, or completely sold on the idea that null is some big bad horrible place. Take a look around. Go break some stuff.

Find a supply chain and disrupt it. Just don't bother Red/Black Frog, they are useful people...

"It's funny the things you people think are mandatory for us, as if we don't do what we do because it's a hilarious good time in a space video game." - Johnny Marzetti

Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-12-03 03:00:14 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Sounds like you need to move your PI operations to wormhole space!! Cool

All the cool kids are doing it these days!


But the evil Interbus corporation has beat everyone to the planets and removing them would require planning.

Speaking of which, it makes no sense as to why there would be a poco in place in wormhole space by an NPC corp in the first place.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#66 - 2013-12-03 04:40:14 UTC
Zheng'Yi Sao wrote:
Tyranny is enabled primarily by the idea that people cannot do anything about it.

I mean, there is no way a giant organized block of players could ever come into existence. Nobody would ever band together in null sec and create an empire. There would never be an organization of brave new players banding together in hi sec. Or would there?

there are no goons, bob will rule forever

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2013-12-03 05:17:54 UTC
TBH its the small corps that are the real pain with high-sec pocos, either charging stupidly high tax rates or changing tax every day or 2 seemingly on a whim.

What they do not seem to realise is a P4 industrial complex costs the owner well under 10 mill to establish and can generate 700 mill a month in P4 commodities (based on producing sterile conduits at 900k each 24/7) . Hence its worth relocating a complex for even a 1% tax difference. I just moved the last of my factories to a 5% tax planet in losec after the corp owning the highsec POCO suddenly put tax up to 12% after level 5 customs skill.

There is no advantage to a POCO owner chasing away industrial complexes they have no effect on the planets resources whatsoever.

Now the really stupid thing is hisec corps that seem to now be moving into losec and putting up pocos at the same or higher rates than interbus :D



Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#68 - 2013-12-03 06:14:44 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Now the really stupid thing is hisec corps that seem to now be moving into losec and putting up pocos at the same or higher rates than interbus :D

At least you don't have to wardec, if you're willing to take a security status hit

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Bobby Frutt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-12-03 06:19:57 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
I too find it appaling that these null sec bullies have come to high sec to lower our taxes.......





to lower our taxes.........

Until everyone gets comfortable and they decide to raise all the taxes at once, thereby hauling PI production and allowing them to monopolize the markets with their own mats.

CFC are the last group I want to trust with my economic prospecting, no offense to them :P.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#70 - 2013-12-03 06:20:51 UTC
Bobby Frutt wrote:
Silvetica Dian wrote:
I too find it appaling that these null sec bullies have come to high sec to lower our taxes.......





to lower our taxes.........

Until everyone gets comfortable and they decide to raise all the taxes at once, thereby hauling PI production and allowing them to monopolize the markets with their own mats.

CFC are the last group I want to trust with my economic prospecting, no offense to them :P.


Then go take them down and start making a difference.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-12-03 07:09:26 UTC
Zheng'Yi Sao wrote:
...The real question should be why shouldn't larger corps dominate the POCO system? ...


The effect of allowing Highsec Customs Offices to be taken over by player Corps is to give these Corps a source of passive income.

Why give a source of passive income to Corps in the first place? What goal was CCP trying to accomplish with this? Or was it just a consequence of some other goal?

Many have said the Corp/Alliance income should be bottom/up...not top/down. That Corp members should generate the income the Corp receives and those Corp with the more active/efficient members would benefit the most.

If a year from now CCP is seeing large scale fighting over these POCO, then it would indicate it was a good change that drove 'conflict', but if a year from now there is little conflict over ownership of these POCOs, then CCP has only made the matter worse.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#72 - 2013-12-03 07:14:54 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:


If a year from now CCP is seeing large scale fighting over these POCO, then it would indicate it was a good change that drove 'conflict', but if a year from now there is little conflict over ownership of these POCOs, then CCP has only made the matter worse.


It's entirely up to the various denizens of highsec if this becomes a conflict driver or not.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#73 - 2013-12-03 07:44:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
The war dec system is an issue, lets say I am in Nani and I use the customs offices there, in comes a couple of Goons (for example) who decide to take the POCO's, they do so and put their own in place and increase tax to 30%. What option does the smaller corp or single guy have. Pay it, or do what I suggested earlier, which is deplete the resources on that planet so that people go elsewhere, which has no effect if the intention is to cut off PI by over taxing, the other option is to pay 500mn to war dec a large alliance. It just does not make sense to do that, which is why I called the whole POCO setup half baked.

The best way would be to make it so that you can shoot POCO's and get a suspect tag, if you war dec someone you don't, this of course means that for a while people will be going around shooting POCO's to get at people, but after a few months of this it will settle down, but in this way anyone can go after a POCO, with the risk of course that someone could come in and blap them.

If that is a step too far for CCP, then what about adjusting the war dec fee, for me it makes no sense that there is no penalty for being Concorded above the loss of a ship, so I would propose that the war dec cost be adjusted downwards by adding up all the pilots that had been concorded over the last 30 days in that entity and multiplying by 1m ISK and take that off of the war dec costs, that really would open up the system for a bit more fun and games and as the Goons are always looking for things to shoot this gives them even more possibilities and means that those couple of guys in Nani will have to spend time and effort defending them. Come on CCP think it through!!!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-12-03 08:16:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

It's entirely up to the various denizens of highsec if this becomes a conflict driver or not.
Why 'denizens of highsec'?

My understanding is both null and lowsec are also involved in Highsec POCOs? If there is no conflict, then doesn't that call into question the game mechanic as a whole?
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#75 - 2013-12-03 09:40:31 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
The war dec system is an issue, lets say I am in Nani and I use the customs offices there, in comes a couple of Goons (for example) who decide to take the POCO's, they do so and put their own in place and increase tax to 30%. What option does the smaller corp or single guy have. Pay it, or do what I suggested earlier, which is deplete the resources on that planet so that people go elsewhere, which has no effect if the intention is to cut off PI by over taxing, the other option is to pay 500mn to war dec a large alliance. It just does not make sense to do that, which is why I called the whole POCO setup half baked.


Why don't (didn't) you put your own POCO's up on the planets you use, before the Goons (Grrrr) get there?????

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#76 - 2013-12-03 09:53:08 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
What option does the smaller corp or single guy have.


Evolve or die

Cmon player, THINK IT THROUGH!!!!

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2013-12-03 10:02:09 UTC
Herbinator d'Arcadie wrote:
Seems the bigger corps can have lots of fun with POCOs. We little guys, not so much. Sad

I didn't think it would bother me but ... it sticks in my craw that 0-sec corps have taken over h-sec POCOs. I haven't done any PI since Rubicon.

I can't wardec the pirate corps ... but just as in 0-sec it should at least be open season on the ships which use them. Have the ships blink yellow on a pick-up (works for low-sec, too). Non-resident POCO owners shouldn't get it this easy; maybe a little active effort defending their customers is in order.



Form up and congregate into larger corps up to the point you have enough people that paying for the wardecs (for yourself or mercs to do it) is feasible.


Eve was never made to play solo or semi solo. Gather... If you dont have 50 members at least you cannot complain that its too hard for yoursize.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#78 - 2013-12-03 10:04:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
Bah, all these people crying and whining about larger, more established groups having benefits over entitled solo players. My (small, rag-tag) corp owns a few POCOs (most in lowsec, some in hisec) and it we grinded them all ourselves, working through reinforcement timers and dodging hostilities from our public enemies. We bled for those things with our ships, we deserve the ISK we gain from them as long as we may still keep them. We proved a small but commited group can take them down with proper coordination and some effort. I once thought POCO ownership to be something for the big guys. I proved myself wrong, and I am glad I did. People tend to overestimate the effort required to kill a POCO or come up with the funds for a wardec.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#79 - 2013-12-03 10:13:21 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
What option does the smaller corp or single guy have.


Evolve or die

Cmon player, THINK IT THROUGH!!!!


I just did, in terms of RvB you want the income from POCO's so the deplete strategy works, you lose ISK, simple as.

However the Goons may well just go for grief so it does not work, they have immunity, I can hardly evolve through that glass ceiling can I, you can throw a Eve buzz word at me all you want, but simply put under the current mechanisms there is no way to resist against the Goons if they are only interested in using the POCO's for griefing hisec players and that is my issue, which is why I suggested that adjustment to the war dec cost. Lets take evolution and call this the Panda affect, lol

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#80 - 2013-12-03 10:24:32 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
What option does the smaller corp or single guy have.


Evolve or die

Cmon player, THINK IT THROUGH!!!!


I just did, in terms of RvB you want the income from POCO's so the deplete strategy works, you lose ISK, simple as.

However the Goons may well just go for grief so it does not work, they have immunity, I can hardly evolve through that glass ceiling can I, you can throw a Eve buzz word at me all you want, but simply put under the current mechanisms there is no way to resist against the Goons if they are only interested in using the POCO's for griefing hisec players and that is my issue, which is why I suggested that adjustment to the war dec cost. Lets take evolution and call this the Panda affect, lol


Evolving isnt about pushing through the ceiling

Its about thinking AROUND it

But your tack has now changed from "I want to do this but cant" to "Grr Goons"

Sorry that they dont like playing the game your way

But yes, you are the panda in your example.

You are sticking to one income stream and refusing to diverge

You will become extinct if you dont evolve out of it

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann